.44 special/magnum vs. .45 Colt in popularity

[mcb]

Yes you cannot use 45AR in a Redhawk due to the way the cylinder is cut for both 45 ACP on moonclips and 45 Colt. The raised rim around the outside that allows 45 Colt to head space without the moonclip would make the 45 AR stand off the face of the cylinder to far to shut the cylinder. If you want to use your favorite 45 ACP loads in your 45ACP/45Colt Redhawk but don't want to use 45 ACP brass and moonclips (and that is crazy talk as moonclips rule!) you can use 45 Cowboy-Special brass. It is a 45 Colt case cut down to the same length and internal volume as 45 ACP. Load it with 45 Colt shell plate and sizing die the seat and crimp with 45ACP/AR dies.

 

[sequins]

I have a 44 redhawk and a 44 super blackhawk, but I think I'm going to get a 454 super redhawk next so I can get into 45lc and 454. I want a colt SAA in 45lc badly but hard to find a brand new one.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

Yes you cannot use 45AR in a Redhawk due to the way the cylinder is cut for both 45 ACP on moonclips and 45 Colt. The raised rim around the outside that allows 45 Colt to head space without the moonclip would make the 45 AR stand off the face of the cylinder to far to shut the cylinder. If you want to use your favorite 45 ACP loads in your 45ACP/45Colt Redhawk but don't want to use 45 ACP brass and moonclips (and that is crazy talk as moonclips rule!) you can use 45 Cowboy-Special brass. It is a 45 Colt case cut down to the same length and internal volume as 45 ACP. Load it with 45 Colt shell plate and sizing die the seat and crimp with 45ACP/AR dies.

Back in the day I used to say that moon clips sucked and saw how there's no use for them when we have speedloaders... How wrong I was...

 

[cal44mag]

The 45 Colt is really, really old.

The 44 Magnum is reasonably modern (or at least in my lifetime).

I like the 327 Federal better than either and it was designed about 15 years ago.

You didn't see Dirty Harry pointing a 45 Colt revolver at the bad guy and saying, "Well punk, seeing as this is a 45 Colt, the oldest revolver in the world, do you feel lucky..."

If he had said that, his movies would have flopped.

 

[RealGun]

The 45 Colt is really, really old.

The 44 Magnum is reasonably modern (or at least in my lifetime).

I like the 327 Federal better than either and it was designed about 15 years ago.

You didn't see Dirty Harry pointing a 45 Colt revolver at the bad guy and saying, "Well punk, seeing as this is a 45 Colt, the oldest revolver in the world, do you feel lucky..."

If he had said that, his movies would have flopped.

I have yet to see a 327 Federal in an ideal platform, while the 45 Colt and 44 Magnum have that pretty well worked out, assuming Ruger would once again offer a Bisley 44 Super Blackhawk in a mid length barrel like I have from 1997. I have had Single Sevens and SP101s in two barrel lengths each, and none of them was a perfect marriage or even a good choice for any specific application. The best was a subsonic loaded SP101, which I am wearing at the moment.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

The 45 Colt is really, really old.

The 44 Magnum is reasonably modern (or at least in my lifetime).

I like the 327 Federal better than either and it was designed about 15 years ago.

You didn't see Dirty Harry pointing a 45 Colt revolver at the bad guy and saying, "Well punk, seeing as this is a 45 Colt, the oldest revolver in the world, do you feel lucky..."

If he had said that, his movies would have flopped.

Might be old but it can easily outperform the .44 mag in a revolver designed to handle pressures near .454 casull levels.

 

[MidRoad]

The 45 Colt is really, really old.

The 44 Magnum is reasonably modern (or at least in my lifetime).

I like the 327 Federal better than either and it was designed about 15 years ago.

You didn't see Dirty Harry pointing a 45 Colt revolver at the bad guy and saying, "Well punk, seeing as this is a 45 Colt, the oldest revolver in the world, do you feel lucky..."

If he had said that, his movies would have flopped.

This may be true. But I still wouldn't want to piss off Mr.Eastwoods mule!

 

[MaxP]

The 45 Colt is really, really old.

The 44 Magnum is reasonably modern (or at least in my lifetime).

I like the 327 Federal better than either and it was designed about 15 years ago.

You didn't see Dirty Harry pointing a 45 Colt revolver at the bad guy and saying, "Well punk, seeing as this is a 45 Colt, the oldest revolver in the world, do you feel lucky..."

If he had said that, his movies would have flopped.

I killed this water buffalo with a .45 Colt. He clearly wasn't afraid because it wasn't a .44 Mag and he had seen Dirty Harry, but he probably should have been very afraid despite the cartridge's age...LOL!

 

[mcb]

Might be old but it can easily outperform the .44 mag in a revolver designed to handle pressures near .454 casull levels.

454 Casull has a SAAMI MAP of 65,000 psi (transducer), that is nearly twice SAAMI MAP of 44 Magnum and over four times 45 Colt. It seem sort of disingenuous to compare 45 Colt loaded way beyond its original design, to "in-spec" 44 Mag. If your going to hot-dog one cartridge you got to hot-dog them both. If you ran both 45 Colt and 44 Mag to similar pressure levels 45 Colt would probably still come out ahead slightly in the numbers (due to slightly higher case volume and bore diameter) but it would be fairly negligible (target would not know the difference). 44 Mag would have a strength/weight advantage due to the skinnier chambers keeping hoop-stress in the cylinder down but that would be similarly negligible.

 

[MaxP]

It has long been a popular practice to load the .45 Colt to +P levels to the point that a number of ammo manufacturers offer higher pressure/performance leadings as do all of the loading manuals. The SAAMI maximum for the .44 Mag is 36,000 PSI while Ruger-only .45 Colt loads run in 30,000 PSI range on the top end. Why is it not a fair comparison?

 

[mcb]

It has long been a popular practice to load the .45 Colt to +P levels to the point that a number of ammo manufacturers offer higher pressure/performance leadings as do all of the loading manuals. The SAAMI maximum for the .44 Mag is 36,000 PSI while Ruger-only .45 Colt loads run in 30,000 PSI range on the top end. Why is it not a fair comparison?

Evangelist Cowboy was talking about loading 45 Colt to near 454 Casull levels (65,000 psi). It has nothing to do with fair/unfair comparison just simply pointing out that if your going to hot dog a cartridge to that extreme level it seem disingenuous to compare it to another cartridge that is running in-spec.

I load 38 Short Colt to near 357 Magnum pressure levels and yet in a discussion of 38 Special I never try to claim 38 Short Colt is a better cartridge even though my hot-dogged 38 Short Colt is likely out performing most 38 Special loads.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But let me point out that the .38 Short Colt is a small capacity case. The .45 Colt has a huge capacity -- more than the .44 Mag.

So you can load the .38 Short Colt to near .357 Magnum pressures, but not to .357 Magnum performance. The .45 Colt, on the other hand can be loaded to just about duplicate the .44 Magnum in Ruger Blackhawks.

 

[mcb]

But let me point out that the .38 Short Colt is a small capacity case. The .45 Colt has a huge capacity -- more than the .44 Mag.

So you can load the .38 Short Colt to near .357 Magnum pressures, but not to .357 Magnum performance. The .45 Colt, on the other hand can be loaded to just about duplicate the .44 Magnum in Ruger Blackhawks.

But I said I load it to 357 mag pressures but it would out perform 38 Special not 357 Mag. And to be exact 45 Colt has only ~10% more case volume than 44 Mag.

I have no doubt a lot of guys are loading 45 Colt to out perform 44 Mag but you're missing my point. It is disingenuous to compare a cartridge loaded above SAAMI to a cartridge loaded in SAAMI spec. Why are you not comparing it to 44 Mag that is also loaded above SAAMI? How far above SAAMI are we going to load the cartridge? One poster was saying a bit over 30,000 psi another was inferring closer to 65,000 psi. What guns are we talking about it being safe in? What if I load 45 Colt to 80,000 psi and fire it in a special one-off gun that can handle that pressure does that count in all this?

Just a pet peeve of mine, like comparing a standard off the deal-lot car to one that has been heavily modified for the track racing.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I have no doubt a lot of guys are loading 45 Colt to out perform 44 Mag but you're missing my point. It is disingenuous to compare a cartridge loaded above SAAMI to a cartridge loaded in SAAMI spec. Why are you not comparing it to 44 Mag that is also loaded above SAAMI?

We're comparing apples to apples. A .45 Colt, loaded to near .44 Mag pressures will just about duplicate a .44 Mag.

On the other hand, a .38 Short Colt loaded to .357 Mag pressures will NOT duplicate a .357 Mag.

 

[dickydalton]

PULEASE............ Not the 45 Colt VS the 44 magnum Again!!!!!

I'm speaking of power Not popularity like the thread is!

 

[mcb]

We're comparing apples to apples. A .45 Colt, loaded to near .44 Mag pressures will just about duplicate a .44 Mag.

On the other hand, a .38 Short Colt loaded to .357 Mag pressures will NOT duplicate a .357 Mag.

Never made that claim of 38 Short Colt... Your not getting my point and we are off topic anyways so drop it, I am...

PULEASE............ Not the 45 Colt VS the 44 magnum Again!!!!!

I'm speaking of power Not popularity like the thread is!

And to get back on topic I do believe that 45 Colt is probably more popular today than 44 Mag. There are only a few gun makers making 44 Mag revolvers and there are a heap of makers making various copies of old west guns in 45 Colt.

S&W is currently an odd ball as the offer only one gun is 45 Colt (only) the Model 25. S&W has a fairly larger variety of 44 Mag, nearly 20 models.

Taurus favors 44 Mag but only if you don't count the huge number of Judge variation and that is probably there most popular revolver right now.

Ruger is about 50/50 between the two cartridges in models offered with both cartridges a bit over 25 each.

Uberti offer only 3 in 44 mag and nearly 100 different model in 45 Colt.

Cimerron similarly only offers 2 in 44 Mag and dozens in 45 Colt

Colt only makes 357 Mag and 45 Colt nothing in 44 Mag.

I don't believe Charter Arms currently plays with either cartridge.

This is based on a quick look at their web sites. I am sure I have missed a few but it sure seems like there are more 45 Colt revolvers (especially in SAA and top break type revolvers) than 44 Mag

There are very few competitive shooting sports where 44 Mag is a big player, Silhouette is about all I can think of. 45 Colt on the other hand has SASS one of the biggest of the competitive shooting sports right now.

 

[peacebutready]

My point, exactly -- when a 250 grain semi-wadcutter hits a deer (or an elk for that matter) at 900 fps, any additional velocity is just expended in the air.

I guess there's places where a non soft-point can be used for big game.

Colt only makes 357 Mag and 45 Colt nothing in 44 Mag.

I didn't know Colt is making .357 mag revolvers now. I'll have to check that out.

 

[peacebutready]

Thanks for the replies, all.

 

[cal44mag]

If you want to play the game of loading cartridges beyond SAAMI specs, there are Ruger only loads available that push the 44 Mag up to 454 Casull levels -- like the 340 gr Buffalo Bore load that hits over 1475 fps - but only in a Super Blackhawk.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

The 45 Colt is really, really old.

The 44 Magnum is reasonably modern (or at least in my lifetime).

45 Colt was developed in 1873 for the Colt Single Action Army. I don't consider that really, really old, I consider matchlocks really, really old.

44 Magnum is just a young whippersnapper developed in 1955 as a joint project between Smith and Wesson and Remington.

The reason the 45 Colt cartridge case is so big is the Army wanted a round that could put down a horse. It took that big a case to stuff in that much powder. These 30 grain loads are the reduced power loads that the Army developed when it was felt the original 40 grain load delivered too much recoil, and some of the malleable iron cylinders of the early guns blew up.






Like I said before, I really have no use for a 44 Mag, I don't hunt. But from my point of view, nothing is as much fun as touching off a 45 Colt round stuffed with FFg and capped with a 250 grain bullet. I know the target is in there somewhere.

 

[MaxP]

If you want to play the game of loading cartridges beyond SAAMI specs, there are Ruger only loads available that push the 44 Mag up to 454 Casull levels -- like the 340 gr Buffalo Bore load that hits over 1475 fps - but only in a Super Blackhawk.

The .454 can be loaded considerably hotter than that and still stay within the SAAMI maximum parameters. If I can recall, that load you speak of runs right around 50,000 PSI. The bullet length out of the case makes this one prohibitive for use in some revolvers. I had some special .45 Colt loads pressure tested right at 36,000 PSI and they would consistently push a 335 grain bullet to over 1,400 fps. It's a different animal at 65,000 PSI...

 

[MaxP]

I have no doubt a lot of guys are loading 45 Colt to out perform 44 Mag but you're missing my point. It is disingenuous to compare a cartridge loaded above SAAMI to a cartridge loaded in SAAMI spec. Why are you not comparing it to 44 Mag that is also loaded above SAAMI? How far above SAAMI are we going to load the cartridge? One poster was saying a bit over 30,000 psi another was inferring closer to 65,000 psi. What guns are we talking about it being safe in? What if I load 45 Colt to 80,000 psi and fire it in a special one-off gun that can handle that pressure does that count in all this?

Just a pet peeve of mine, like comparing a standard off the deal-lot car to one that has been heavily modified for the track racing.

Rugers. That is why it is referred to as a Ruger-only load in loading manuals. It's safe in Rugers, BFRs, Freedom Arms, etc. Not the case with Smith & Wessons and SAAs and the various SAA clones.

This all boils down to what you are chasing. If your end goal is a gentle push while punching paper, then there is no reason to consider loading the .45 hotter, That said, the only reason to push the .45 over standard SAAMI levels is to gain a terminal advantage. I am not an advocate for pushing the .45 to Casull levels (even though that is precisely what Dick Casull did before going commercial with his cartridge), but by equalizing pressure levels with the much vaunted .44 Mag or not even going that high, you can achieve a sizable increase in performance over 14,000 PSI loads. If it is safe, and it is in a Ruger, why not hot-rod the .45 Colt? It just works. But again, I approach all of this from the perspective of a hunter and terminal effectiveness.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

This all boils down to what you are chasing. If your end goal is a gentle push while punching paper, then there is no reason to consider loading the .45 hotter, That said, the only reason to push the .45 over standard SAAMI levels is to gain a terminal advantage. I am not an advocate for pushing the .45 to Casull levels (even though that is precisely what Dick Casull did before going commercial with his cartridge), but by equalizing pressure levels with the much vaunted .44 Mag or not even going that high, you can achieve a sizable increase in performance over 14,000 PSI loads. If it is safe, and it is in a Ruger, why not hot-rod the .45 Colt? It just works. But again, I approach all of this from the perspective of a hunter and terminal effectiveness.

I agree with you 100%. It's silly to pretend a .45 Colt 32,000 PSI load in a Ruger Blackhawk is somehow "illegitimate." It gives you terminal performance almost identical to a .44 Mag with less blast and recoil.

 

[Tradmark]

The 45/70 is rarely run to trapdoor specs, even the 375hh is loaded ro higher spec than it used to be. So no probs not letting the 45 colt linger in the late 1800’s!!! That said buffalo bore loads their 454’s down to a lower level and do so for reliability. Corbon originally loade their ammo hot as heck and so did hornady. Hornady ran the 240’s to 2000fps and corbon to 2100. I have 454 loads that run 340 gr hardcast at 1750 fps. With no pressure signs at all. Havent yet seen a 44 mag load even come close. And that load isnt special for only a certain gun, its out of the short cylindered model 83. Popularity is simply because the 44 started hot and the bullet availability is better off the shelf bit it in no way shape or form is more popular with hunters bc its better. Its not.

 

[Dave T]

Driftwood, thanks for that last picture. Brought back a lot of memories from 25-30 years ago. I can almost smell the sulfur! (smile)

Dave