44 wildcats (429-430 bore) for a rifle..

[adcoch1]

Hi all, been thinking about 44 wildcats lately, googling and reading up on forums and such, anybody out there know of any rifle cartridges in 44? I've looked at custom trimmed 444s, 444 rimless from 30-06 brass, etc. Mostly this is just trying to learn about whats been done and what's left to do. Btw, anyone heard of 44 alpen? Looking for heavy hitters or super velocity experiments, or even heavyweight 44 mag successes. Anything 44 for a rifle.

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[RPRNY]

I recall something about a belted magnum necked up to 429. I want to say the 378 Weatherby MAG but I'm not sure of it. I can't see much good in it. The 444 has its place and now there are bullets suited to it. But if I were to wildcat a 44, I'd want something that threw VLD heavy metal a long, long way, something like a lesser 416 Barret. In fact, I would be working off the 50 BMG case and about 450 - 500 grs. It would be like a gigantic 6.5mm and I'd call it the 44 Beserker or the 430 Gustavus Adolphus or something equally absurd.

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[adcoch1]

I like it! Actually i have been looking at a blown out 375h&h case, looks like i can get at least 25% more powder than a 444 marlin in it. Would only take a custom barrel on any belted mag action rifle. Somebody mentioned 44 alpen was similar to this, but i can't find any information on it...

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[WestKentucky]

44 in a rifle is going to be one of three things.

Option 1 Short and fat (bullet) to keep weight down and allow for case volume in a relatively small case for th purpose to drive it quick which means it drops off quickly too.

Option 2, long bullet in a short case. Long bullet gives you better ballistics, but you eat up real estate with bullet and limit your powder capacity in the case.

Option 3, simply large. Like said earlier, to get enough case capacity to air-mail heavy bullets with decent ballistic coefficients you need a large case capacity with room in front of it for a 44 cal pointy bullet. The intelligent choice would be to take a 50bmg and neck it down to 44 caliber and use long bullets. If you do it that way you also have rifles to use as a platform to build off of and a somewhat common. Case to use as a parent case from which to form your 44 screamer. I like this option...balisticslly better version of the BMG shot faster flatter and farther. Bullet construction may be the big issue to overcome.

 

[adcoch1]

Yeah not a lot of good 44 spitzers out there at the moment. A 416 Rigby equivalent should be doable though, if you wanted to compete with 416 Barrett though it's gonna take some custom bullets for sure. I just want to see if anything presently exists that can outdo 444 marlin by 200 fps or so and still be loaded down to just above 44 mag. I have a great 44 mag levergun, but i would like a bolt gun to take advantage of longer length cartridges.

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[WestKentucky]

On a lever I would br pretty nervous about hotrodding a 444 or a 45-70 either one because with modern ammo being what it is, anything much beyond factory ammo and you start hearing the stories of destroyed guns. Jumping up to a new cartridge beyond that would compound the problem. You are wise to be looking towards a bolt rifle, but even so I doubt you will find a cartridge ran any hotter. In a bolt gun, your best bet for jumping beyond 444 is to get custom bullets made (just buy a small lathe and rod stock to turn them), and start looking at getting custom brass as well. I would suggest something in the line of a brass 20 GA hull considerably thicker than normal necked down to 44 cal with a pretty steep shoulder angle and at least 3/8 (preferably 1/2" of neck on it just to hold bullets in place during heavy recoil. But if your going that far you might as well jump right on up to the BMG case and have fun.

 

[Jim Watson]

In the 1950s, Jim Harvey of Lakeville Arms designed, among other wildcats, the .44 Maglaska on the H&H belted magnum case.

There was the Wade Leverpower series which got up to .44 but would have just been a wildcat equivalent of the .444 Marlin.

 

[superc_1]

44 automag from a rifle would probably be interesting.
That said, I have a Rem Rolling Block chambered for a straight rimmed still unknown 2+ inch BP .43. I have been having great fun with it. With heeled 43 bullets and black powder I have thus far fired in it; 44 Bulldog, .442 Webley, .44 American, .44 Russian, .44 Special and .44 Magnum. A friend has promised to spot me some 444 Marlin brass and I look forward to trying that too.

 

[the Black Spot]

There was a 444 schaefer mag at one time that was a slightly longer 444 marlin. Built on a contender action.
A winchester .50-110 necked down to 44 might be interesting, but then that is getting close to a .44-90 sharps.
I wouldnt mind a lever action in .500 smith necked down to 44.

 

[superc_1]

Thinking through your smokeless powder, it isn't, as someone implied above, enough to just design a more powerful cartridge, you will also need to match the strength of the gun to the cartridge. If you don't, sooner or later you will have a burst gun. I would think about using an AR 10 as the basis of something to hold a magazine full of automags, but if I did that, at some point I would wonder why I wasn't just going to 50 Beowulf? <50 Beowulf with a good HP makes a great close to medium range Whitetail deer round BTW, but is it really better than a 460?.> If I was going to neck down a Ma Deuce round, well of course I would be looking at a Barret 50 for my base starting point. Or one of the super heavy Mauser type bolt actions designed for the 50 Browning. Rule of thumb, the hotter your cartridge, the more steel you need surrounding the cartridge, the more steel surrounding the cartridge the heavier the gun will be and the less you will want to lug it around with you all day.

 

[CraigC]

What would be the purpose? What platform?

IMHO, a more interesting route would be to fully realize the .444's potential with heavy bullets. All one needs is a modern 1-20" twist rifle and some tuning to realize Beartooth 405's at 2150fps. Nothing on the planet will stand up to that. Pretty much outclasses heavy .45/70 loads.

There was a 444 schaefer mag at one time that was a slightly longer 444 marlin.

No, the .444 Schafer (developed by Lew Schafer) was simply a .444 case turned down to .44Mag dimensions so that both cartridges could be used in the same chamber. Lew also designed the .44 UltraMag, which was his .444 trimmed to 1.6" and led to the quasi-mainstream .445 SuperMag. The .445 was simply a stretched .44Mag case and as such, has more capacity than the .44 UltraMag.

 

[the Black Spot]

Craig, i thought i remember reading after the schaefer mag was fireformed it ended up being slightly longer than the 444m. I have been wrong before though.

One of winchester short mags might make an interesting 44 project.

 

[adcoch1]

I am going to use a bolt gun, probably a 1917 Winchester action, so strength wont be a problem. A hot 444 would work fine for what i have in mind, since i will be using a custom barrel anyway. I really like the idea of using the 350 plus weight bullets, those 405s look perfect for my ultimate bear and elk gun. The lever guns just can't cut it with a higher pressure round compared to a bolt gun, and nobody makes a 444 with a tight enough twist to really utilize the heaviest 44 bullets. So i am looking at 444 and up for cartridges. I think the 45-120 necked down would be awesome, but brass is expensive compared to a belted mag case, and i have a 300 win mag donor rifle to play with. So if i stick to a standard belted mag wildcat i don't even have to modify the extractor or bolt face. Just poking around to see what others have done or are doing. A lot of good ideas on here too...

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[the Black Spot]

If going bolt gun route, what about a necked up .303 british?

 

[adcoch1]

If going bolt gun route, what about a necked up .303 british?

The 303 doesn't have any volume advantage over the 444, although that is the first cartridge i looked at along with 30-06. The next i seriously looked at is 300 win mag necked up but otherwise unchanged, that is what i am showing in the picture next to 30-06 brass. I think i will probably use this profile for my wildcat, but use a 375 h&h brass so i get a longer neck. Just ideas at the moment, if i see something else that works i may change my direction. Btw this feeds perfectly from my rifles magazine.

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[CraigC]

I am going to use a bolt gun, probably a 1917 Winchester action, so strength wont be a problem. A hot 444 would work fine for what i have in mind, since i will be using a custom barrel anyway. I really like the idea of using the 350 plus weight bullets, those 405s look perfect for my ultimate bear and elk gun. The lever guns just can't cut it with a higher pressure round compared to a bolt gun, and nobody makes a 444 with a tight enough twist to really utilize the heaviest 44 bullets. So i am looking at 444 and up for cartridges. I think the 45-120 necked down would be awesome, but brass is expensive compared to a belted mag case, and i have a 300 win mag donor rifle to play with. So if i stick to a standard belted mag wildcat i don't even have to modify the extractor or bolt face. Just poking around to see what others have done or are doing. A lot of good ideas on here too...

The later 1-20" Marlins are plenty fast and the guns are plenty strong. You're not really gaining anything useful with another 200fps.

Remember, more isn't always better. You still have to operate within the parameters of existing bullets.

 

[adcoch1]

The later 1-20" Marlins are plenty fast and the guns are plenty strong. You're not really gaining anything useful with another 200fps.

Remember, more isn't always better. You still have to operate within the parameters of existing bullets.

Absolutely correct CraigC, about velocity of the bullets. And the 1-20" marlin barrels are pretty good, but in the future i may be making my own bullets on my lathe that would be much longer than 44 pistol bullets. I am looking at 1-14" twist barrels and a MAX velocity around 2600 fps someday, so if i go to all this effort i want a case that has some volume to work with. Maybe i should look some more at 444... any body know of a 444 bolt gun?

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[the Black Spot]

.44-375 H&H would be sweet i think!

 

[adcoch1]

Yeah its pretty much a 416 Remington mag but with a bigger bullet. Its just easier to find 375 h&h brass to start from. I may have to just build this thing...

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[highlander 5]

Ages ago while on a camping jaunt with my church in NH ran into a gent that worked for T/C. He had a Contender carbine chambered for 44/7 mm Remington mag. From my conversation with him one of the perks were you could design your own rifle cartridge combo. Can't remember much beyond that though I do remember that it had a muzzle blast that hurt even thru ear muffs and plugds.

 

[adcoch1]

Wow thats cool. Yeah a short barrel with a cannon like that would hurt.

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