45-70 (bear?)

[coloradokevin]

Okay,

So, I'm just starting to look into putting together an extended backpacking trip to the great north (Alaska)... This trip won't be happening in the immediate future, but is something I'm looking at for long-term planning (a year or two out at the minimum).

Anyway, I'm wondering right now about bear defense in a state with animals that are a good bit larger than the bears/mountain lions I deal with around here!

As such, do any of you guys know if a 45-70 would have enough power for a defensive application against coastal-sized brownies, and/or polar bears (depending on where we visit in the state once this trip is off the ground)?

I'm not intending to hunt bears on this trip, otherwise I'd have picked a different caliber. I'm mostly looking for a caliber that will do well as a defensive tool against the biggest bears we might encounter... I figure that use for this unfortunate application would involve short-range shooting, and likely not allow more than one follow-up shot. Based on what I've seen, the Marlin 1895 Guide Gun looked intriguing... just wondered if it was up to that task power-wise?

(if not, what would you guys recommend? It needs to be fairly light, and can't have a very long barrel for use on this trip... otherwise, I'm always open to suggestion. I'm sure someone on here has dealt with these large mammals!)


Mod's: If this is better placed in the hunting section, feel free to move it. I put it here since I'm not looking to hunt on this trip, but need a suitable rifle for this task!

 

[Pumpkinheaver]

They Marlin guide gun is a very good choice for your purposes. I would put a good ghost ring or receiver sight on it and load it with heavy hard cast bullets and it will do whatever you want it to do.

 

[TimT]

"defensive" application? Certainly I have used my 1895G done up by WWG in Anchorage with my reloads shooting heavy hardcast at big grizzlies here where I live in the Brooks Range and it does quite well. The .45-70 is a hammer when it comes to knocking down either Bears or moose. I like it as a meat gun as you can ear right up to the wound channel. I would opt for a WWG trigger right off the bat, the original factory leaves alot to be desired. I had the WWG sights which is the protected rear peep and a F/O front-sight acquistion was fast and accurate!

I preferred H322 for powder and Beartooth Bullets of 405 grn. on up-your choice.

enjoy!

 

[Shawnee]

The 1895 Marlin .45/70 could be a good choice.

Key factor - Action type - how well and fast can you effectively operate a lever gun in a situation where your life or someone else's may well depend on you?

Lever guns are not for everyone. The .45/70 would be a very expensive gun to use for much needed practice at rapid, aimed fire.

Some options to at least think about would be the Remington semi-auto or pump-action rifles, especially in the "carbine" versions.

They have been made as models 742, 7400, and 750 (semi-autos) and models 760 and 7600 (pumpguns).

The Remington carbines were/are available in .308 and 30/06 and are nominally the same weight and length as the Marlin.

Or, you could take a tip from African hunters who have to go into brush for lions and use a pump or semi-auto 12ga. loaded to the gills with #1 Buck and figure on using it to make mush of a bear's head.

 

[TimT]

them pumps have a place for sure but the .45-70 still remains in question. Leverguns are fast-period. My advice: practice often prior to departure.

 

[Jeff F]

A 45/70 lever gun with the right bullets would be my choice for that application. Very hard hitting at close range, or any range for that matter.

 

[Cosmoline]

The 1895 is one of the standard bear defense guns around these parts, and has been used to hunt and defend against brown bears. Remember there are three classes of .45-70 ammo. The first is the original blackpowder or equivalent load for CAS or shooting from old trapdoors. The second is standard hunting ammo. The third is essentially a .45-70 magnum made by Buf. Bore, Garrett and some others. For bear protection most folks opt for class 3 magnums shooting heavy hardcasts. These generate enormous energy at close range and a LOT of recoil. The 1895G is not much fun shooting these. I'm not recoil sensitive but boy that hurts. I actually prefer the full size 1895 for these.

Another, less expensive, option is a 12 ga with a slug barrel on it. These should be loaded with heavy hardcast Brenneke style magnum slugs, not foster deer slugs and not buckshot. This is probably the No. 1 platform for bear defense in the state and has brought down more bears in DLP than any other firearm I know of.

What you use depends a lot on what you're doing and where you're going. Don't spend a lot on some fancy rig unless you won't mind it getting scratched and dented.

 

[TimT]

cosmoline, the "class 3" is note worthy, the only choice - seriously. yep, them short bbls. are pretty mean and stout! Again, practice and familiarize yourself with that short power house prior to departure.

 

[coloradokevin]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Glad to hear that I had a correct train of thought on this one!

Remember there are three classes of .45-70 ammo. The first is the original blackpowder or equivalent load for CAS or shooting from old trapdoors. The second is standard hunting ammo. The third is essentially a .45-70 magnum made by Buf. Bore, Garrett and some others. For bear protection most folks opt for class 3 magnums shooting heavy hardcasts.

Cosmoline,

I've noticed what you said about the "grades" of ammo, and have seen the Buffalo Bore stuff advertised as "Magnum" loads. Can you (or anyone else for that matter) clarify that these so-called "magnum" loads are still loaded in a standard 45-70 action? Or is there a 45-70 Mag action that I have not heard of? (again, I'll be using a modern, possibly new, gun... 'cause I always like an excuse to get a new gun!).

FWIW, I'm expecting this thing will kick like an angry mule when loaded up heavy, but I'm sure I'd want nothing short of a howitzer if an angry bear decided to add me to the appetizer menu!!! I'm also not very recoil sensitive, and have fired standard hunting loads from another person's 45-70 in the past, and have shot a lot of the other big magnum hunting calibers over the years (375 H&H, 300 Win Mag, 338 Ultra Mag, etc). Still, I've also heard that top 45-70 loads are quite punishing out of the guns they are typically fired from!

 

[Albatross]

When I go hiking I pack a 45-70 loaded with buffalo bore.

That said, the danger posed by coastal brown bears is vastly over-rated.

I hope you're lucky enough to see a few.

 

[freakshow10mm]

WTH is a "class 3 magnum"?

The Buffalo Bore, Garrett, etc loads are fine for 1895 actions made after 1972. These are loaded to the 28000-35000CUP pressure level. I load ammunition to 43500CUP in my Guide Gun with no issues (the .450 Marlin whose operating pressure is 43500CUP is chambered in the same exact gun. Just a chamber dimension [belted case] difference).

 

[coloradokevin]

That said, the danger posed by coastal brown bears is vastly over-rated.

I hope you're lucky enough to see a few.

I completely understand!

Coming from Coloraodo, and having a wildlife biologist as a wife, I've seen a lot of overstated dangers when it comes to wildlife.

We have black bears and mountain lions in CO, as well as a heck of a lot of coyotes. Wolves aren't really established here, but they are on the move from WY, and every now and again one will be spotted in CO.

Mountain lions are probably our most dangerous animal around here, in terms of numbers of attacks and ability to take down a prey animal our size. Even then, attacks are few and far between... A few dogs get grabbed each year, and every couple of years there will be an attack. Last kill I recall in this state by a lion was probably 4-5 years ago.

But, anyway, I'd still like to go with the "ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" approach up North!

 

[coloradokevin]

Okay, first this double posted...

 

[coloradokevin]

...Then it triple posted.



(I wish there was a "delete" option on the edit screen!)

 

[Cosmoline]

Can you (or anyone else for that matter) clarify that these so-called "magnum" loads are still loaded in a standard 45-70 action?

There was some controversy about this in the last decade. I remember a certain someone at a certain local shop with the initials "WWG" expressing in profane terms how the hot loaded hardcasts were going to kill someone and the ammo company would be shut down. This has not come to pass, though the last I checked Marlin will not certify that the 1895 action is strong enough for these loads, but I have never heard of any kabooms or had any signs of trouble shooting them myself. I have experience some big bruises and I know of at least one report of a cracked stock, but no kb's. B. Bore I believe says their loads are OK for Marlin 1895's made since the mid 70's when the design was revamped, as well as for the big Browning Winnie clones.

WTH is a "class 3 magnum"?

For loading .45-70's there are three general classes. Most load manuals will expressly tell you the hot loads in the range that Garrett and B. bore sell are only safe in Ruger No. 1's and converted Siamese Mausers, but like I said everyone shoots them in 1895's anyway.

Understanding the classes of .45-70 is also important for sighting in. If you sight in on cowboy loads you'll find the B. Bore's hitting a lot higher.

 

[BMW2]

Why not a pump shotgun w/slugs? Cheaper than a levergun and just as effective if it's for defense and not hunting.

 

[dmftoy1]

The pump shotgun with slugs (while very effective) will eat you alive in terms of practice ammo costs. Around here it's about $2 everytime you pull the trigger on factory slugs. (If you cast and reload you're own it's a different story) If I was going to count on a any gun for this role I think I'd be wanting to do some fairly regular practice with it.

 

[Shawnee]

A noteworthy advantage of a 12ga. deer-style shotgun is that, even though you wll want to use premium slugs (or hard #1 Buck) when you're on your trip, you can get your "practice" in with El Cheapo birdshot loads from WallyWorld - or even handloaded trap/skeet loads.
They will afford you the practice in operating the gun fast and cooly without breaking the bank.

 

[ECVMatt]

Just a thought...

I am by no means an expert, but I did make a great 14 day rafting trip with my buddy in AK.

The most difficult time for us and bears was dusk/night time. I think you are on the right track with the 1895 they are great! I would add the WWG light mount to the front so you can clip on a light at night. I bet I would have only gotten off one shot with the 1895 and then the light would have flown out of my supporting hand.

All that being said we really did not have any bear problems. We camped clean, kept our meat in a cache down wind of our camp and had the best time of our lives!

Shotguns are an option, but feel big and clunky in comparison to the svelte lines of a Guide Gun's receiver. It just feels like it was made perfect for a man's hand.

Walking an unknown land, with a good levergun in your hand is a pleasure that all men should experience at least once in their lifetime.

I hope you go and have a great time.

Matt

 

[ArmedBear]

Lever gun handling can be learned with a .22 if you're not used to lever guns.

Sure, you want to do some full-power practice, too, but working the action is something you don't have to practice with boxes of Buffalo Bore.

One thing I've really liked has been a snap-on leather lever wrap I made. It can be disconcerting to rap your knuckles on the lever, and if you shoot enough rounds, you can get a bruise. With the wrap, I can go fast without the distraction or the bruise.

I can send a pattern if you're interested.

If you're not worried about having a flat trajectory, the .45-70 is a wonderful thing.

 

[ahpd1992]

Based on my lack of experience in Alaskan survival and my completely unqualifed and biased opinion, I would suggest the guide gun if you WANT the guide gun. If money is an issue and 870 pump w/ heavy slugs will certainly do the job. Modern slugs have the equivelent energy of a 45-70 at close range. Either way pick one and practice a lot w/ it before you go.

I agree if you go w/ a 12 gauge you can find cheap practice ammo and save the expensive magnum slugs for the trip.

Here in Illinois where deer hunting is shotgun only we have a lot more experience in making shotguns into rifles. For those that dont know modern slug guns and modern slugs are 200yrd accurate these days. If you ever came here to hunt (Im told some of the biggest trophy whitetails are here, they keep hiding from me) you would see some pretty fancy shotgun setups.
A shotgun will never do what a rifle does, but it is versatile and cheap and I would not feel undergunned with heavy slugs.

Chuch Hawks has an excellent article on shotgun slugs Il see if I can find the link.

Oh I have a lefty 870 w/ a rifled barrel I can sell you cheap if money is the issue. (no Im not a dealer I just have a well loved gun that shoots like stink and no one would mind taking into the field getting it scratched and dirty)

Tom

 

[stubbicatt]

12 ga. slug would be a good idea. Less expensive, and you can get semi auto or pump, the latter of which would be my choice.

 

[ArmedBear]

870s are fine, but they don't come in stainless, which would be a must-have, if I were going to take a rifle into the salt air for a while, far from my cleaning supplies.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

"Extended Backpacking" and "Rifle / Longgun" do not belong in the same sentence, IMO. Much too heavy. You'll be cursing it endlessly after 1-2 days humping it. At most, a handgun or pepper spray. I'd probably go with pepper spray. Most of the handguns big enough to be effective against a bear are going to be so heavy that you'll be cursing them too - 4 lbs plus. I'd want a sub-4 lb handgun if packing long distances at my age (late 30s). Even lighter if I was older. Unless you have enough young whippersnappers going with you that you can make them carry the bulk of the tents/food/bags/gear, and you can just carry your rifle & some snacks.

 

[ArmedBear]

Unless you have enough young whippersnappers going with you that you can make them carry the bulk of the tents/food/bags/gear, and you can just carry your rifle & some snacks.

Get a fringed buckskin jacket and call yourself "the guide" and you're good to go, then. Study up on tall tales.