870's can be armor coated, and you can still find a winchester mariner which is stainless steel, I think mossberg has a stainless shotgun too. Anyway if its not a cost issue get the Marlin, their great guns, cant fault the gun or the cartridge choice
45-70 (bear?)
- Thread starter coloradokevin
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Im gonna throw you a curve ball, how about a Puma lever gun in .454 casull. You can practice w/ 45 colt and out a rifle the .454 is packing plenty of punch to get you out of whatever you got into...just a thought, they go for about $400 brand new
Cosmoline
Member
Pumas are a good option and will save a few lbs. Whatever you take, the main thing is to be a good shot with it and be able to bring it into action in a few moments. If it's buried or leaning against a tree at camp it won't be much use. Personally I carry a Mosin-Nagant over shoulder or slung across the front with a quick release.
wuchak
Member
Get a 45/70 Guide gun and a 39a as an understudy for lever practice. Check into options for carrying the rifle on your pack so it's easily accessible yet has the weight carried by the pack's suspension system.
Of course you can also get one of these in 45/70
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=BFR45-707
Of course you can also get one of these in 45/70
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=BFR45-707
Tarvis
Member
The 45-70 with proper bullet selection will kill any land animal on planet earth.
TimT
Member
the 45-70 in close works well and you don't need to worry or concern yourself with trajectory. I have kept my shooting with the BTB 460" dia. 425 WLNGC with h322 around 1900fps- a stomper for sure but sure works well. I gave it to my kid brother - he likes the porting, I don't.
I can be content with an 06' with 168 TSX's @ 2900 plus or the 220 Part. @ 2590 or my VZ 9.3x62 286 Part @ 2440fps-it is just me--I still like my wifes 94 Win. 30-30AI with 170 Part. too.
Oh well, it is what you are comfortable with I'd say so long it can do the job and you hit your mark under duress. I am counting on the first shot....always, but not hesistant for a follow up either.
I can be content with an 06' with 168 TSX's @ 2900 plus or the 220 Part. @ 2590 or my VZ 9.3x62 286 Part @ 2440fps-it is just me--I still like my wifes 94 Win. 30-30AI with 170 Part. too.
Oh well, it is what you are comfortable with I'd say so long it can do the job and you hit your mark under duress. I am counting on the first shot....always, but not hesistant for a follow up either.
Harley Quinn
Member
Many now are saying a shotgun with slugs is the way to go, you also have a lot of options with the shotgun. The pump would be a good one.
12 Gauge is good, 3".
http://www.polywad-shotgun-shells.com/
12 Gauge is good, 3".
http://www.polywad-shotgun-shells.com/
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Float Pilot
Member
45-70 is still fairly popular up here. I have a couple Winchesters and a Browning 86 Re-Pro carbine. I carry the carbine around in certain areas known for high grass and fast bears. My buddy only has one heavy rifle and that is a Marlin Guide gun that I polished until it worked smoothly. Marlins are not my thing.
I use regular old Remington 405 grain bulk bullets and 54 grains of IMR 4064.
I get 1,770 fps from my carbine and a 1.5 inch group at 100 yards. The recoil is not bad and the brass last longer.
42 grains of RL-7 gives you about the same velocity and a 2 inch group from my gun.
My buddy likes 50 grains of IMR 3031 and 405 grain remingtons in his Guide Gun. He gets 1,650 fps and a 1.0 inch group at 100 yards. He has a scout scope.
I could load them hotter and I have.... but anything within 150 yards would not be able to tell the diffference.
I use regular old Remington 405 grain bulk bullets and 54 grains of IMR 4064.
I get 1,770 fps from my carbine and a 1.5 inch group at 100 yards. The recoil is not bad and the brass last longer.
42 grains of RL-7 gives you about the same velocity and a 2 inch group from my gun.
My buddy likes 50 grains of IMR 3031 and 405 grain remingtons in his Guide Gun. He gets 1,650 fps and a 1.0 inch group at 100 yards. He has a scout scope.
I could load them hotter and I have.... but anything within 150 yards would not be able to tell the diffference.
Cosmoline
Member
I've often wondered if it really makes a difference. If you have a good bullet do you really need it cranked up so much it kills your shoulder? Those huge slugs penetrate very well even at standard velocities. But I don't know that anyone has done a side-by-side field comparison on game between standard .45-70 loads and the B. Bores and Garretts. My bet is they'd both punch clean through anything this side of an elephant.
Let me add what seems to be an alternate, bought by a local on his way for a motorcycle tour up the Alaska way....the NEF/H&R .45-70 which takes down easily.....most factory ammo is, indeed, loaded to BP pressures, and a 1200fps 325grJHP would not be a good idea on brownies....the heavier/hardcast/faster ammo would be easy to find up that way, and the rifle would surely hold up to what you could, even if not recommended.....
TimT
Member
just a fast note on the Rem. 405's loaded by Alaskan Ammo yrs. back--it penetrated a 60" bull at 75 yds for half the distance in the chest cavity! shocked! It did kill though. I began my loading after that with hard cast and always satisfied with the end results.
your mileage may vary
your mileage may vary
I'd give some real thought to what you will be doing and what your needs will be. I'm the last person to discourage someone from buying any gun they want, I bought three so far this month and the month ain't over. If you will be flying in, setting up a base camp and hanging around a couple weeks then a rifle would be ok to take with on day hikes and such. On the other hand if you are going to be living out of a backpack and putting on some miles you will likely have 45 lbs on your back already. I don't know of any flat hiking trails here and lugging even a six lb rifle around will get old in a hurry. It's also hard to hold a fishing pole in one hand and a rifle in the other. (ya gotta go fishing). What I'm saying is that I don't feel helpless with a .44 rem mag. with 300 gr hard cast bullets on my hip for hiking and camping and I don't leave the road without it. Don't panic if you see a bear, (black or brown) at 20 yards. give them a wide berth (it's there woods) and give them every chance to run away. 99 out of a 100 times they will. Oh yea if you ever stick your rifle in your pack you might as well leave it at the airport for all the good it will do ya. Have fun and be safe. Bring rain gear!
Cosmoline
Member
Ain't that the truth. This state repeatedly kicks me in the hind end.
dmftoy1
Member
My vote is for the marlin guide gun . . .but I thought I'd point out that they make an 870 "Marine Magnum". It's not stainless but mine lived in a bathroom closet (with no exhaust fan in the bathroom) for a number of years and never had a spec of rust on it. FWIW.
OP
OP
coloradokevin
Member
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I completely understand the weight issue that you guys have mentioned.
My wife and I are both experienced backpackers, and spend much of our free time in the wilderness, be it hiking, climbing, or paddling (we actually met each other in a mountaineering club years ago).
We've more or less done it all... Summer ultralight backpacking to full-on winter mountaineering. If I've learned one thing over the years it is that I hate heavy packs on days with a lot of vertical!
So, weight is a factor...
But, by the same token, having a cartridge that is up-to-task is also a factor. I don't suspect that the two legged predators will be much of a risk where we want to go up North, and I really doubt my .45 would be worth a damn against the big bears that roam those parts of the country.
Thus, I'm trying to find a compromise: Something that will work against the only targets I might have the occasion to engage with (large land mammals), but isn't too heavy to carry (again, a relative term).
I've also considered a large revolver as an alternative to a long gun, due to weight factors (perhaps .454 Casull?). But, the rifle obviously has more punch!
My wife and I are both experienced backpackers, and spend much of our free time in the wilderness, be it hiking, climbing, or paddling (we actually met each other in a mountaineering club years ago).
We've more or less done it all... Summer ultralight backpacking to full-on winter mountaineering. If I've learned one thing over the years it is that I hate heavy packs on days with a lot of vertical!
So, weight is a factor...
But, by the same token, having a cartridge that is up-to-task is also a factor. I don't suspect that the two legged predators will be much of a risk where we want to go up North, and I really doubt my .45 would be worth a damn against the big bears that roam those parts of the country.
Thus, I'm trying to find a compromise: Something that will work against the only targets I might have the occasion to engage with (large land mammals), but isn't too heavy to carry (again, a relative term).
I've also considered a large revolver as an alternative to a long gun, due to weight factors (perhaps .454 Casull?). But, the rifle obviously has more punch!
I wouldn't be so sure about the .45 being completely ineffective.
Not so long ago, maybe last year? I read about a couple of young men who had their fishing fun interrupted by an aggressive bear.
They had a shotgun, but the fellow holding it threw it into the river (read: he dropped it in excitement) before it did them any good.
The other fellow pulled out some sort of 9mm and shot the bear dead.
Not so long ago, maybe last year? I read about a couple of young men who had their fishing fun interrupted by an aggressive bear.
They had a shotgun, but the fellow holding it threw it into the river (read: he dropped it in excitement) before it did them any good.
The other fellow pulled out some sort of 9mm and shot the bear dead.
Harley Quinn
Member
hmm 45 might do the job, 9 penetrates better
HorseSoldier
Member
When I was a kid in Alaska, there was a frequently discussed incident that had occurred a year or two before my dad was assigned up there, where a lieutenant newly posted to Ft. Greely opened fire on a brown bear with his personally owned 9mm while out recreationally hiking. My recollection is it was later learned that he'd hit the bear 12-13 times before the bear killed him.
The Fish & Wildlife types eventually located and killed the bear several days later. No idea what kind of shot placement he managed with the 9mm, but I'd feel kind of underarmed with a 9mm, 40, or 45 even for black bear. I'd pretty much feel underarmed with any pistol imaginable for browns -- something with supersonic ammo velocities might, I guess, at least provide some additional noice to frighten the bear off better (or annoy it more . . .).
I have a Guide Gun and handload for it. The two bullets/loads I have developed are a Hornady 350 grain jacketed round nose bullet (good for anything that won't eat you) and a 500 grain hard cast lead bullet loaded at the top end of the power scale for the Guide Gun (good for anything). The 500 grain loads are not fun to shoot, they're down right brutal. I'm not recoil sensitive but when you pull the trigger with this load you can tell which teeth in your mouth have fillings in them and after touching off a few I start to develop a flinch in anticipation of getting whacked really hard. I think they will stop anything short of a locomotive.
TimT
Member
I have owned 2 casulls and can attest to its weight carry deficit but.......boy are they something! They shoot the big mid 400grns with great accuracies-a sure fire compremize in close. Many cannot shoot them good or at all so here comes a rifle in subject.
Some say the only reason they own a handgun is to get to their rifle-okay......
Some say the only reason they own a handgun is to get to their rifle-okay......
wyocarp
Member
ColoradoKevin, You've gotten a lot of advice. If you are looking to get a 45-70, go for it. I have a Marlin that Wild West Guns makes into their .457 and it is a very nice gun. They are a stopper. For Father's Day we went bear hunting this past week. I was calling a bear that we had seen but wasn't able to get to before he got out of sight. My son and I saw him as he raced towards us from maybe 30 yards when he came into view. My son dropped him at about twenty feet and the bear never moved again. My son said he didn't feel the recoil of the .457 at all. But he comments on it all the time when shooting it for fun. The other thing about the Marlin is that they are very accurate.
toivo
Member
The 870 Marine Magnum is nickel-coated, like the Mossberg Mariner. Is anybody making a stainless shotgun these days?
I'd suggest you get the 1895 if you've already practiced or plan to practice heavily with a lever gun. Factor in ammo costs, too- somebody said something about slugs not being cheap. Expect to pay as much for good .45-70 ammo.
Otherwise, I'd go for a good short barreled 12 gauge.
If I were headed to AK, I'd probably either use my Mossberg 500 (parkerized, ghost ring sights, 18" barrel) or my .35 Whelen 7600 for defense. Either one is a slide-action, so you can get the second, third, and fourth shots off quickly. If you have time.
John
Otherwise, I'd go for a good short barreled 12 gauge.
If I were headed to AK, I'd probably either use my Mossberg 500 (parkerized, ghost ring sights, 18" barrel) or my .35 Whelen 7600 for defense. Either one is a slide-action, so you can get the second, third, and fourth shots off quickly. If you have time.
John
Shawnee
member
If a person just had to have a lever-action rifle - another very good option would be the Browning BLR lever-action in 7mm/08, .308, or 30/06.
wyocarp
Member
I don't think any of these would have the instant stopping power the 45-70 will have. I was just this past weekend talking someone here in Wyoming whose friend had tried to stop a grizzly with a 7mm. The grizzly later died, but it didn't do so until after it had torn the guy up pretty badly. Killing a bear and stopping a bear are two separate things.
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