.45 or 9mm?

[sequoia1321]

Hello. I have a Rock Island Armory .45 1911 Compact pistol. It was my first gun. I chose it because it was cheap and because .45 is a strong round. But after some experience I have some doubts about the .45:

1. The bullets are too expensive, so I don't get to practice shooting as much as I would like.
2. The magazine capacity is less than 9mm magazine. The max my magazine can hold is 9 rounds.
3. .45 has a strong recoil which reduces accuracy in rapid fire compared to 9mm.

I still have to fire a 9mm. But as far as I can tell, the main advantage of .45 is that it is more effective in bringing down the target IF you hit the target. But your chances of missing with .45 are greater in rapid fire compared to 9mm, and you can generally fire more shots with 9mm. So I'm thinking 9mm is the better option.

Your thoughts...

 

[lwrnc1963]

While the two perform about the same with good hollow points if you ever need to resort to FMJ the 45 wins hands down. Go to wally-world and get some winchester white box 45s in the 100 round box for $22-$23 every payday and you'll be able to practice on a reasonable budget. Also if you practice with that 45 you won't need to rapid fire because you'll HIT with it.

 

[aka108]

You might consider reloading--Brings the cost of 45 ACP way down. The thing I like about the 9mm is the variety of older pistols in that caliber if you are into collecting.

 

[ArmedBear]

Rapid fire is the least of your concerns. Hit the target on the first shot. Keeps innocent bystanders, and you, safer, should you need to use it defensively.

If you are using a gun defensively, that means someone is a direct threat to your life, or someone else's nearby. In that situation, you don't want to waste time sending lead all over the place.

That said, a compact .45 can kick. But learning to deal with that is part of the learning process.

If you already had a 9mm, I'd say keep using it, because as lwrnc said, good modern 9mm is quite effective (practice with the cheaper stuff, though). But if you already have a .45, practice with that.

If you get a practice gun, get something like a Ruger 22/45. The gun isn't too expensive, it's a "forever" gun, .22LR is really cheap, and the gun is made for crossover practice by .45 shooters.

 

[MachIVshooter]

But your chances of missing with .45 are greater in rapid fire compared to 9mm, and you can generally fire more shots with 9mm. So I'm thinking 9mm is the better option.

That's quite a stretch. Such logic can apply to novice shooters or people who've sustained injuries or have physical conditions that compromise wrist/hand strength. But with even a modicum of practice, any able-bodied person can become proficient in rapid firing a .45 ACP handgun.

But by all means, get a 9mm as well. They are cheaper to play with and you can never have enough firearms. Just don't buy one thinking the increased round count/decreased recoil affords you some extra capacity for SD.

 

[jjohnson]

+1 Armed Bear

Okay, 9mm is certainly cheaper to shoot, no argument there. And yes, you can get high performance 9mm ammo that beats military 'ball' ammo.

However... do consider that even most 'civilian self-defense' shootouts don't eat a lot of ammo. You may only need to connect with one shot... or two. Combat may involve lots of firepower and reloading of fat mags, but chances are you will NEVER need to fire one shot, much less need extra capacity. If you can't do the job with one mag of .45, maybe you shouldn't carry.

The advice on the 22/45 is great. You will never be able to wear it out and it's a great crossover.

Think twice before shooting once. Good luck.

 

[MountainBear]

Rapid fire is overrated. Use slow controlled aimed fire and hit your damn target.

Now as to 9mm being cheaper than .45, yes it is and probably always will be. But if you do not reload (as I do not yet either), the 250 packs of UMC or the aforementioned Wally world special Winchester 100 packs keep my 1911 humming along quite nicely.

Also, if you are so inclined, I believe Chip McCormick makes 10 round 1911 mags, although they do sitck out a bit below the mag well...

 

[Oregongundude]

Both will do there job and have for several years.

I have a 9 mm Glock and one XD .45 acp. I like both extremely well and with the right JHP's both will kill quite nicely. If you perfer the 9 mm get some good JHP's like Winchester ranger 127 +P+ JHP they are famous for killing people in actual street situations.

If you decide on the .45 acp anything works well even Ball ammo especially 230 grain bullets either in the JHP's or FMJ. You can also get lighter faster JHP's for the .45 acp +P rounds offering better expansion.

The only real different is the cost of the practice ammo and recoil. 9 mm is alot cheaper and doesn't have the recoil that the .45 acp has. However, in my opinion the .45 acp is more of a push/pull recoil and is very managable.

Both handgun have stood the test of time and continue to be popular choices for self defense. I would recommend that you fire both and then decide which one works best for you.

A lot of times these days I'm packing a .40 S&W over both the 9 mm and .45 acp. the .40 S&W is a little more snappy than the 9 mm, it reminds me of a 9 mm on steriods.

However the .45 acp and 9 mm are fine self defense handguns. Either choice has merit and a successful track record in actual shootings. For example. when the Police in Washington DC switched to the 9mm from the 38 special there shooting dead rate increased four fold in 5 years. Basically meaning the 9 mm is a more effective killer than the .38 special in actual street shooting. The .45 acp has always been a good man stopper.

 

[10-Ring]

Welcome to THR That was a pretty good 1st post...rekindling the 45/9 thing should bring out ALOT of rabid fans from both camps!
Me, I can fire my 45 as quickly and as accurately as my 9's...maybe a bit better. But really, I think it depends on which platform you can dedicate yourself to. If budget is preventing quality practice w/ your 1911, get the 9mm and get in the trigger time

 

[SoCalShooter]

I like .45acp. If I do have to shoot someone I want a .45acp not a 9mm, if you are a good shot you wont need more than 2 or 3 rounds on target to stop someone. If you ever do get into a firefight you wont be thinking about recoil at all you will be more concerned with stopping the target.

Now if you want a target gun , dont get a 9mm, get a .22lr, specifically a Ruger Mk3 5" bull barrel.

Cheap cheap cheap cheap ammo, and in fact you will become a better shooter using a .22lr because you are able to see all your jerks, quirks, blurks and whatever and then you can learn to shoot better, a lot of the stuff I just mentioned you wont see on shooting a 9 or a .45 because you have the recoil.

The afformentioned .22/45 is a nice weapon also, I have modified grips for my MK3. Something to think about though is that if you want work done on the .22/45 {tapping} you cant do it because its a polymer frame.

 

[sequoia1321]

Rapid Fire

But the farther your target becomes the more rapid fire will be imporatant. Because accuracy becomes more of a concern the more the distance increases. And the more the distance increases the more difficult to hit the target with the first shot, hence the need for accurate follow up shots, and timely follow up shots considering that the target is probably firing back or taking cover. In that situation you want a weapon that is relatively accurate in rapid fire, and also has higher magazine capacity to allow you to sustain rapid fire.

But I think part of the problem I'm having with accuracy is because my pistol is compact and it is not the best design. I test fired a .45 glock, and although it was slightly more compact than my 1911, I felt more comfortable firing it, the recoil felt more controlled, and my shots were more accurate, due to glocks superior design.

 

[SilverState]

ammo

if you look around, you can get .acp45 for around $8.50 a box; not much more than the 9mm $5.50 price

capacity

the single stack design makes it easy to conceal, just like the spare mag you can effortlessly conceal on the other side; real life shooting incidents usually require no more than five shots fired

effectiveness

you must be effective and you get that way by practice; the .45acp has a very soft recoil and most shooters have no problem being accurate with it

note: a .45acp will stop a real threat better than a 9mm allthings being equal

 

[44AMP]

Rapid Fire....

Welcome to the forum. Compact .45s are one of the more difficult handguns to shoot well, and rapidly. Recoil is a very individual experience, everybody feels it slightly differently. Physics says that since the 9mm and the 45 both have about the same amount of energy, that in guns of similar weight, thre recoil would be similar. But what you feel can be quite different, because of different factors in the shape and angle of the grips, weight of the guns, and the way you hold and shoot the gun.

To me, the 9mm and the .45 have about the same recoil, but the 9mm "feels" a bit quicker or snappier. When you get a chance to shoot a 9mm, you will understand. Words don't explain it well. If you want to get the best comparison, you should shoot the 9mm in a gun of similar size and weight as your .45, then you will have something to judge it against.

As far as rapid fire and recoil, lighter recoiling guns are faster to get back on target, no doubt of it. A .22 is a lot easier to shoot fast and accurate than a 9mm or a .45. But speed is something to be worked up to. Accuracy first, speed later. Don't be fooled by TV and the movies, real guns are nowhere near as easy to use as it looks like.

I strongly urge you to get a .22 handgun. The ammo is as cheap as it gets, so you can afford to practice and develope your handgun skills (sights and trigger control) until you reach the point where your shooting improves, then try the bigger calibers. Make a game of it, set a goal you need to reach with the .22, and when you get there, reward your self with the .45. You can have a lot of fun, and get in alot of practice for the cost of one box of bigger ammo.

And as to the cost of the ammo, the cheapest 9mm is about 80% to 90% the cost of the cheapest .45ACP, if bought by the box. So, you really don't save all that much. And, if you learn to handload, you can cut your ammo costs about in half.

Again welcome as a new member, and a beginning handgunner. (to me, anybody with one handgun is a beginner ) Don't let anybody tell you you need "xxxx" and "xxxx", only you know what you need. And you already have a handgun adequate for self defense, so you are ahead there. Lots of experienced folks here and at www.thefiringline.com who will be happy to offer well meant suggestions and advice. There are also some people who talk out of where they sit, so be prepared. I have been shooting different kinds of handguns for close to 40 years, and reloading for about 35, and I still learn things here and there.

I feel the purpose of forums like this is for us to share experience, get questions answered, and generally enjoy talking about our hobby/sport/passion, etc...

Enjoy

 

[MountainBear]

Sequoia, distance should decrease rounds being fired, not increase it. For one, liklihood of a miss becomes more probable, and you are still responsible for every bullet that comes out of your gun. Also, if you continue to shoot as you distance yourself or your assailant backs away, a DA will claim you had an opportunity to escape but chose not to (not to say that getting behind cover is not a good thing, it definately is). If he continues to advance, plant several rounds in his chest, but take your time and aim and make damn sure every round counts (9mm or 45, or , 40, or .38, or .22, whatever). Likely, he will not be using aimed fire, rather spray and pray, so aquire your target every time and place your shots...

 

[1911 guy]

If you like the 1911, I'll solve your problems.

If you don't like the 1911, fine. Everyone is different and I hope you find something you like.

If, however, you do like your RIA 1911, I'll solve your problems for you right now while you wait.

1) Winchester USA brand ammo (know as WWB-Winchester white box) sells for about $20 for a hundred rounds in most department and sporting goods stores. Still more expensive than 9mm, but cheaper than most other .45ACP.

2) Carry a reload. Spare magazines can make up for less rounds in the handgun. In reality, though, it's a non-issue. Most defensive shootings are over in two or three rounds.

3) Proper grip on the handgun will tame that recoil for you. Here's how:
A) Put the handgun in you right hand, drawing an imaginary line from your shoulder, through your elbow and wrist, to the muzzle of your pistol.
B) See the grip area left exposed on the left side of the handgun? Put the palm of your left hand there.
C) Wrap your fingers around the front of the pistol, on top of your right hand fingers.
D) Put your right thumb on top of the safety lever. Put your left thumb foreward of the right one, also pointing to the target.

Start slow, concentrate on keeping the grip correct. Once you master the grip, you'll find that the pistol stays on target and recovers from recoil very quickly.

 

[Marshall]

Spray & Pray is not the way.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A little history here may perhaps provide insight as to the rounds under discussion...,

The 9mm Luger or Parabellum was designed to be a more powerful round than the 7.65 Parabellum. It is rumored that it was also a much cheaper round, as the straight case of a 9mm Luger is cheaper to produce than the bottle necked case of the 7.65 Parabellum (this may be true for manufacturing methods in 1898 - can't say about today) The pistols were intended for use by German officers, and the officers used their pistols as disciplinary weapons vs. their troops. Rommel's own journal of WWI has him using his pistol once, pointing it at the backs of his own troops, and ordering them to man their machine guns against a French charge. They did, the French found bayonets vs. maxim guns wasn't a good idea, and Rommel was decorated for the action. (When he went forward of his lines, he carried a rifle.)

The .45 ACP was designed to increase the power over .38 caliber cartridges, to knock an attacking enemy down fast, with less shots fired. It was also intended in the 1911 pistol to do so not only in the hands of officers, but also as backup weapons for infantrymen serving crew served weapons like artillery and machine guns. The design concepts for the two rounds are very different.

I like John Browning's approach..., knock 'em down fast with as few shots as possible.

On the street I've carried .38 +P, 9mm, and now the .40 S&W. The .40 S&W is OK, but I'd prefer the .45 ACP.

LD

 

[jjohnson]

Question - About Basics

Okay, I gave this some thought and I guess we need more info.

What on earth do you want to use your .45 for anyway? I think a lot of us assumed that you're looking at a CCW ("small .45") for self defense. Is that so, or did we just guess wrong?

Reason I ask is you seem to be concerned with firepower past what one .45 will hold (followup shots, distant targets). Fair enough if you're a Law Enforcement Officer or military, but that's not what your post looks like. And you mention your experience - what's that? For me, I've been shooting handguns 44 years.... where are you on that time line?

Not being picky here, just trying to figure out the real question, because a lot of us have to wonder why rapid fire and targets getting further away are a concern. I figure if I'm carrying .45, one mag is enough, 'cause in a worst case, I can double tap THREE bad guys and still have ammo left when everybody else tries to flee the scene (which is when I have to stop shooting). If I plan on something even worse, chances are I'm somewhere I have no smart reason to be in the first place, like an honest to God combat zone, where I should instead be carrying a machinegun and wearing body armor. So..... what really do you have in mind here, anyway?

The advice has been good - practice is a good thing, your .45 isn't short on firepower, and a .22 target pistol for LOTS of practice solves the cost deal.
And by all means, if you really don't like the .45, there's plenty of options if you really want a 9mm (or .40). If you tell us a little more about what the basic need is here, we can get closer to addressing the real question.

 

[symr00]

The .45 is a proven manstopper. Sounds like you need a different platform to shoot it from. A compact handgun will have more recoil. My experience has only been with full-size 1911's and Glock 30, both a pleasure to shoot. Both also have .22cal uppers for cheap practice. Nothing wrong with 9mm, my G19 was a pussycat and recoil was almost non-existant. If you practice a lot, the 9mm round is a great economical round if you don't care to reload the .45. Stick with what feels best for YOU and what YOU shoot best with. Either one will do the job intented.

 

[High Planes Drifter]

quote:
But the farther your target becomes the more rapid fire will be imporatant. Because accuracy becomes more of a concern the more the distance increases.
------------------------------------------------

You should slow down if the target is furhter away. Take time and aim. Also, on this topic, how far do you anticipate engaging someone with a handgun?

----------------------------------------------

quote:
I test fired a .45 glock, and although it was slightly more compact than my 1911, I felt more comfortable firing it, the recoil felt more controlled, and my shots were more accurate, due to glocks superior design.
------------------------------------------------

First .45 vs. 9mm. Now Glock vs. 1911

 

[03Shadowbob]

my thoughts are this...anyone who says or truly believes that the 9mm will not do the same job and get the same end result as a .45 is smoking more than cigs.
I have carried .38sp, .45 and 9mm in my life. I have seen people killed with each and live after being hit by each. I would trust my life with any of them. Yeah, of course the .45 is the heavier, bigger round and if I had a choice of round to protect myself with, it'd be my Colt 1911. However, that is only because I like it more and feels better in my hand in a high stress situation.
So I say, if you don't feel confident in your abilities with a .45 in a range environment then you definitely don't want to use it on the street if you had to. Try out a few more guns in different calibers and see what fits you best and what you feel most comfortable with.
Don't buy into the belief that you have to have/carry a .45 to be a real man or to dispatch a threat.

 

[Confederate]

Both Calibers Work!

It's all what you have up the snout.

A hot 9mm JHP will deliver just as much, if not more, stopping power than the .45. Myths die hard and when forced to shoot round nose bullets the .45 does have an edge. But once you move to high performance 9mm it's a different game entirely.

I have a friend who unjustly hates the .45 because it routinely failed to put down the enemy Moros in the Philippines. (He shot one in the chest, then had to beat him with the gun's muzzle to get him to stop.) Because of his one bad experience and what he'd heard from others, he assumes it's a bad round. It isn't. It's just not super powered as the legend states. In Korea, they found dead Chinese soldiers who died from machine gun rounds. Many had .45 slugs lodged in their heavy quilted winter jackets.

Modern loads in both calibers are about even.

 

[dragongoddess]

I didn't know Rock Island made a compact .45. All I know is mine shoots very well and the money saved between it and another 1911 pays for a lot of ammo even after a doing a few things to it like a trigger job and sigths for a set of old eyes.

 

[SilverState]

Anyone who tells you size does not matter is WRONG!!!

Yes, shot placement is important. Yes, the 9mm on your person is better than the .45acp left at home. Yes, a 9mm can kill, especially with good ammo. Yes, in some countries, 9mm is considered a larger caliber.

HOWEVER, and this is the important part, those of us who have to deal with murder and attempt murder cases for a living will tell you, you will find lots of muder cases involving a .45acp and you will find lots of attempt muder cases involving a 9mm, but you will rarely find .45acp attempt murder cases. What do you suppose the difference is between a murder case and an attempt murder case?

 

[weregunner]

Since magazine capacity should not be an issue, S&W model 908,3913 semi autos would be a very good choice. Eight +1 in the chamber would qualify with a spare magazine or two should take care of most if not all defense situations. Same for the Kahr line of pistols. Both would have 3.5 barrels sacrificing very little in the way of velocity loss over the 4 in. barrels. Concealment would be easier than with double column magazine brethren. I have Ruger and Taurus double stack mag semi autos and recommend them highly. Still, the single column semis have an advantages. Both 9 and 45 calibers work well for self defense. Forget the FMJ bullets and use hollowpoints for defense. One cannot shoot fast enough to make up for poor marksmanship or tactics. The FBI learned that the hard way at the 1986 "Miami Massacre". SA Mireles ended the fight with the rifle and shotgun weilding thugs by using his S&W 686 revolver loaded with +P 158grain LSWCHPs. Using aimed fire, with one arm completely useless and dangling, he shot each thug at center of mass 3 times and ended the bloody carnage.