easyg
Member
If it had enough power to knock the threat down then the recoil would also knock the shooter down.
"One shot stops" are a joke.
after all, who would shoot a threat only once?
An argument for .40 caliber
- Thread starter TheProf
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"One shot stops" are a joke.
after all, who would shoot a threat only once?
That doesn't really constitute proof of one being better at stopping than a 9. I've seen the wound tracts from 9, .40, and .45, and can tell you neither is anywhere close to what you can get from a rifle or shotgun, and even those fail to stop people.
There is something to be said for the intial shock created by the sudden deacceleration of a bullet into a body. On first contact, the larger the hitting surface, meplat, of the bullet, the larger the energy transfer, and the greater the deacceleration of the bullet.
Here is an extreme example:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/500SWMagnum.htm
The initial slap into the block creates about a 2-3" hole.
It's that initial hit that creates nerve damage and shock on first getting hit.
The ONLY way to really take advantage of this in a handgun is big diameter bullets. Ideally the bullets would be going faster then they do in .45 ACP.
(I am aware that Lee Jurras had another solution: .429" 185 grain bullet, at 1900 fps, out of a .44 Magnum. The .40 is close to that in diameter, but lacks the case capacity to generate enough velocity. The 10MM, with light bullets, and non-expanding, starts looking really good at this point. 135 grain bullet at 1450 fps, with a TC design is going to both penetrate, create a real good slap, and equal or better the .357 Magnum).
The Holy Grail for people, horses, deer has been the .45 Colt, loaded with 260 grains at about 1000-1200 fps. It is possible to get pretty close to that in the .45 ACP, but it requires either a lighter TC bullet, or a higher pressure
for a heavier bullet, or multiple projectiles.
Trying to get that much velocity means using a light for caliber .40 bullet, which under penetrates with a HP. Therefore if I was going to carry a .40, I'd be looking for a light TC, around 155-165 grains, at 1100 fps or more.
9MM I'd be looking at a TC type bullet in the 130 grain range.
Great thing about .45 is it's already a .45 when it hits, and that is a BIG advantage, larger then numerical factors indicate.
As for wound effectiveness:
This almost looks like a rifle wound:
.45 Colt 260 grains, LFN at 1150 fps:
It also appears that as you increase diameter from there, the effectiveness goes up like the Ricther scale:
This is 440 grains, at 950 fps, in .500JRH:
and that's a .300 Win mag case for comparison.
The effect a .500" caliber LFN type bullet has on impact, even at sedate 950 fps on deer, or in this case buffalo, has to be seen to be believed.
I'm not alone in my thinking. JM Browning originally designed the .45 ACP with a 200 grain bullet at 950 fps, or more. The army told him they wanted a heavier bullet.
I suspect JMB knew more about his design then the army did. The higher velocity creates the same wound channel, the non-expanding bullet
holds true on impact and goes through the target.
Most shootings occur at very short range and are point and shoot type stuff.
We don't practice that much. The 1911 platform, at least for me, provides
an excellent quick draw point shoot combination. For others it's a Glock.
For Bob Munden it's a .45 Colt SA (I invite anyone who thinks Bob is under
a disadvantage with his gun to do a little research).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcZHVspVIDs
The two balloon hits? Think two bad guys and vitals.
I like his solution to multiple firepower and attackers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRXXxQ1OuDc&feature=related
10 seconds, 20 shots. 250 grains, 782 sec.
Here is an extreme example:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/500SWMagnum.htm
The initial slap into the block creates about a 2-3" hole.
It's that initial hit that creates nerve damage and shock on first getting hit.
The ONLY way to really take advantage of this in a handgun is big diameter bullets. Ideally the bullets would be going faster then they do in .45 ACP.
(I am aware that Lee Jurras had another solution: .429" 185 grain bullet, at 1900 fps, out of a .44 Magnum. The .40 is close to that in diameter, but lacks the case capacity to generate enough velocity. The 10MM, with light bullets, and non-expanding, starts looking really good at this point. 135 grain bullet at 1450 fps, with a TC design is going to both penetrate, create a real good slap, and equal or better the .357 Magnum).
The Holy Grail for people, horses, deer has been the .45 Colt, loaded with 260 grains at about 1000-1200 fps. It is possible to get pretty close to that in the .45 ACP, but it requires either a lighter TC bullet, or a higher pressure
for a heavier bullet, or multiple projectiles.
Trying to get that much velocity means using a light for caliber .40 bullet, which under penetrates with a HP. Therefore if I was going to carry a .40, I'd be looking for a light TC, around 155-165 grains, at 1100 fps or more.
9MM I'd be looking at a TC type bullet in the 130 grain range.
Great thing about .45 is it's already a .45 when it hits, and that is a BIG advantage, larger then numerical factors indicate.
As for wound effectiveness:
This almost looks like a rifle wound:
.45 Colt 260 grains, LFN at 1150 fps:
It also appears that as you increase diameter from there, the effectiveness goes up like the Ricther scale:
This is 440 grains, at 950 fps, in .500JRH:
and that's a .300 Win mag case for comparison. The effect a .500" caliber LFN type bullet has on impact, even at sedate 950 fps on deer, or in this case buffalo, has to be seen to be believed.
I'm not alone in my thinking. JM Browning originally designed the .45 ACP with a 200 grain bullet at 950 fps, or more. The army told him they wanted a heavier bullet.
I suspect JMB knew more about his design then the army did. The higher velocity creates the same wound channel, the non-expanding bullet
holds true on impact and goes through the target.
Most shootings occur at very short range and are point and shoot type stuff.
We don't practice that much. The 1911 platform, at least for me, provides
an excellent quick draw point shoot combination. For others it's a Glock.
For Bob Munden it's a .45 Colt SA (I invite anyone who thinks Bob is under
a disadvantage with his gun to do a little research).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcZHVspVIDs
The two balloon hits? Think two bad guys and vitals.
I like his solution to multiple firepower and attackers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRXXxQ1OuDc&feature=related
10 seconds, 20 shots. 250 grains, 782 sec.
Prosser, do you have any links to articles that might be able to explain the phenomenon of the diameter of the wound tract growing faster than the diameter of the bullet?
I'm also curious to see the wound tract of thinner bullets in the same scenario. You're showing just what the big bullets can do, but with nothing to compare it to.
I'm also curious to see the wound tract of thinner bullets in the same scenario. You're showing just what the big bullets can do, but with nothing to compare it to.
Skribs:
The problem is people that shoot stuff these days with handguns can't quantify with statistics what they see in the field, other then pictures.
I don't know ANYONE that shoots deer, hogs, etc. with 9MM.
If you kick around
www.brassfetcher.com
there are LOTS of 9MM gello tests. They also show a larger then diameter
area created by bullet impact, prior to expansion.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Handguns.htm
Here is a calculator designed on Marshall's adaptation and refinement of a formula to quantitatively calculate the permanent wound channel potential of any load utilizing a bullet with a relatively flat frontal area. This calculator generates its results by utilizing the meplat diameter (in inches) of a projectile and the striking velocity of that bullet to give an outstandingly concise calculation of the true permanent wound channel left by the bullet in live targets.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm
Thornily and Taylor have tried to quantify what is required for stopping power, and cleanly killing an animal under any conditions:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/thornily.htm
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/taylor.htm
The problem is people that shoot stuff these days with handguns can't quantify with statistics what they see in the field, other then pictures.
I don't know ANYONE that shoots deer, hogs, etc. with 9MM.
If you kick around
www.brassfetcher.com
there are LOTS of 9MM gello tests. They also show a larger then diameter
area created by bullet impact, prior to expansion.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Handguns.htm
Here is a calculator designed on Marshall's adaptation and refinement of a formula to quantitatively calculate the permanent wound channel potential of any load utilizing a bullet with a relatively flat frontal area. This calculator generates its results by utilizing the meplat diameter (in inches) of a projectile and the striking velocity of that bullet to give an outstandingly concise calculation of the true permanent wound channel left by the bullet in live targets.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/wound.htm
Thornily and Taylor have tried to quantify what is required for stopping power, and cleanly killing an animal under any conditions:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/thornily.htm
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/taylor.htm
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The problem with a lot of gel tests is the difference between the PWC and TWC isn't often easy to view.
Using the Beartooth calculator you provided, and the information for Winchester PDX1 9mm, .40, and .45 caliber rounds (rough estimate of their Meplat):
round/meplat/fps/wound tract
9/0.21/954/0.501
.40/0.24/968/0.581
.45/0.29/882/0.639
The big jump from the 9 to the .40 looks like it's because the .40 actually has more velocity (this is 147-gr 9, 180-gr .40, and 230-gr .45, with the ballistics data from their site). I'm not seeing anything that makes the .45 jump out as awesome. Granted, this is a hollow-point bullet and not a wadcutter, but it doesn't lead to me to believe there's a geometric increase in wound channel as you go bigger. The expanded size of a 9mm is going to create a bigger hole than that .45 entrance wound.
Using the Beartooth calculator you provided, and the information for Winchester PDX1 9mm, .40, and .45 caliber rounds (rough estimate of their Meplat):
round/meplat/fps/wound tract
9/0.21/954/0.501
.40/0.24/968/0.581
.45/0.29/882/0.639
The big jump from the 9 to the .40 looks like it's because the .40 actually has more velocity (this is 147-gr 9, 180-gr .40, and 230-gr .45, with the ballistics data from their site). I'm not seeing anything that makes the .45 jump out as awesome. Granted, this is a hollow-point bullet and not a wadcutter, but it doesn't lead to me to believe there's a geometric increase in wound channel as you go bigger. The expanded size of a 9mm is going to create a bigger hole than that .45 entrance wound.
Do they have a way to quantitatively calculate penetration depth?
Wound channel diameter is only part of the picture- knowing the (potential) penetration depth would also be of value.
M7, I was taking with a grain of salt and assuming both rounds had adequate penetration when I used that calculator. The problem is I didn't find evidence to support the claims that a .45 will yield a significantly wider entry wound.
I also don't think the entry wound is as important as the expanded diameter wound tract, which is what is going to hit the vitals.
I also don't think the entry wound is as important as the expanded diameter wound tract, which is what is going to hit the vitals.
M7:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/penetration.htm
When I do runs for the wound calculator, I tend to run the full caliber.
My revolvers will shoot wadcutters. Auto's a constant of 80% of caliber is an
optimistic number.
"The problem is I didn't find evidence to support the claims that a .45 will yield a significantly wider entry wound."
It doesn't. If you increase velocity, and bullet weight to say, .45 Super or above, then you start seeing a big enough difference. Your numbers are also assuming the 9MM expanded is going to expand. I don't. I carry 9MM, but I don't have much of an illusion that it's Thor's Hammer.
The lesson from all those gello tests is the ammo industry can't produce a HP in most service calibers that gives you enough penetration to meet FBI standards, or won't.
Also perhaps that they sell ammo based on expanded gello results.
XTP's tend to not expand as much, but penetrate better.
Hawk makes different jacket thickness HP's to control expansion.
The bottomline is most HP's, regardless of caliber, are setup to barely
meet the minimum penetration standard for the FBI, after the Platt shooting.
This is NOT a good thing if the badguys that attack you are large, and in packs. It is a good thing if you are Speer, and you are sued for a very unlikely over-penetration injury or death.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/penetration.htm
When I do runs for the wound calculator, I tend to run the full caliber.
My revolvers will shoot wadcutters. Auto's a constant of 80% of caliber is an
optimistic number.
"The problem is I didn't find evidence to support the claims that a .45 will yield a significantly wider entry wound."
It doesn't. If you increase velocity, and bullet weight to say, .45 Super or above, then you start seeing a big enough difference. Your numbers are also assuming the 9MM expanded is going to expand. I don't. I carry 9MM, but I don't have much of an illusion that it's Thor's Hammer.
The lesson from all those gello tests is the ammo industry can't produce a HP in most service calibers that gives you enough penetration to meet FBI standards, or won't.
Also perhaps that they sell ammo based on expanded gello results.
XTP's tend to not expand as much, but penetrate better.
Hawk makes different jacket thickness HP's to control expansion.
The bottomline is most HP's, regardless of caliber, are setup to barely
meet the minimum penetration standard for the FBI, after the Platt shooting.
This is NOT a good thing if the badguys that attack you are large, and in packs. It is a good thing if you are Speer, and you are sued for a very unlikely over-penetration injury or death.
Actually the 12" limit is reached by a lot of 9mm rounds, and .40/.45 go a little deeper. Lots penetrate even deeper. They may not meet the 18" recommendation, but they meet the 12" minimum easily.
I don't think it's Mjölnir either, but I do trust modern bullets to expand fairly reliably. I don't trust that anything in a semi-auto pistol is Thor's Hammer.
A factor that is impossible to quantify is the immobilization due to the area of the body that is struck.
In martial arts you can be taught certain areas of the body that are much more susceptible to that agonizing pain that takes people down then others.
The liver, and a number or pressure points that are not taught as firearm targets are points that if struck, can immobilize, at least for a brief time after the strike.
My theory is that bullet strikes near these areas create fluid pressure that can strike the nerve centers near the skin, and cause 'a knock down'.
The larger the bullet meplat, and the larger the caliber, and the higher velocity, the larger the geometric radius around the striking point is going to be. In other words a splash is created when the bullet hits the skin, and like hitting water, surface tension carries ripples away from the impact point.
The bigger the object hitting, the higher the velocity, and creating the waves, the bigger the waves.
As you move up the scale of calibers these factors are increased geometrically. Some areas of your skin, and nervous system are
focused in groups, and are much more sensitive then others.
There are strike points on the biceps, legs, shoulders,back that when struck make that limb temporarily not function.
I believe that a hit close too these points can cause the same effect as a direct strike, provided enough of a surface wave/energy transfer hits the
nerve area. The bigger the circle of impact surface wave, the higher the probability of the hit incapacitating the bad guy, or animal.
In martial arts you can be taught certain areas of the body that are much more susceptible to that agonizing pain that takes people down then others.
The liver, and a number or pressure points that are not taught as firearm targets are points that if struck, can immobilize, at least for a brief time after the strike.
My theory is that bullet strikes near these areas create fluid pressure that can strike the nerve centers near the skin, and cause 'a knock down'.
The larger the bullet meplat, and the larger the caliber, and the higher velocity, the larger the geometric radius around the striking point is going to be. In other words a splash is created when the bullet hits the skin, and like hitting water, surface tension carries ripples away from the impact point.
The bigger the object hitting, the higher the velocity, and creating the waves, the bigger the waves.
As you move up the scale of calibers these factors are increased geometrically. Some areas of your skin, and nervous system are
focused in groups, and are much more sensitive then others.
There are strike points on the biceps, legs, shoulders,back that when struck make that limb temporarily not function.
I believe that a hit close too these points can cause the same effect as a direct strike, provided enough of a surface wave/energy transfer hits the
nerve area. The bigger the circle of impact surface wave, the higher the probability of the hit incapacitating the bad guy, or animal.
"I don't think it's Mjölnir either, but I do trust modern bullets to expand fairly reliably. I don't trust that anything in a semi-auto pistol is Thor's Hammer."
Get over that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoMag_(pistol)
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firea...rt-Eagle-44-Magnum-Brushed-Chrome-CA-OKAY.asp
http://460rowland.com/
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm
"I believe the .45 Super®, for many .45 ACP owners, offers the same magnitude of improvement as the .45 Long Colt and, potentially, with a very small investment."
I do believe with big bores that the trade off of a larger, longer wound channel created by a bullet that doesn't expand violently maybe something to consider.
"Actually the 12" limit is reached by a lot of 9mm rounds, and .40/.45 go a little deeper. Lots penetrate even deeper. They may not meet the 18" recommendation, but they meet the 12" minimum easily."
Why does an entire industry fail to go with the FBI's recommendations, caused by an actual shooting, and actual lack of penetration getting officers killed?
I submit that the 9MM could be tuned to meet that 18" using a lighter bullet, with a TC configuration, and get it's larger wound channel from velocity. It wouldn't look so spectacular in gello, but in the real
world might well prove far superior.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/9x19mm.htm
Look at the M882 video. If you lighten the bullet to less then 124 grains, somewhere you are going to get it to stop around 18", and you can increase velocity, since you have more powder space.
If you look at the video, you'll see the energy transfer is further in the block then the HP's. Also that the wound channel is much larger as the bullet exits the block, because it maintains
it's velocity through the target FAR better then the average HP.
That equation can be changed a bit using a Truncated Cone type bullet, that would create more energy transfer, and reduce the speed through target a bit.
Get over that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoMag_(pistol)
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firea...rt-Eagle-44-Magnum-Brushed-Chrome-CA-OKAY.asp
http://460rowland.com/
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm
"I believe the .45 Super®, for many .45 ACP owners, offers the same magnitude of improvement as the .45 Long Colt and, potentially, with a very small investment."
I do believe with big bores that the trade off of a larger, longer wound channel created by a bullet that doesn't expand violently maybe something to consider.
"Actually the 12" limit is reached by a lot of 9mm rounds, and .40/.45 go a little deeper. Lots penetrate even deeper. They may not meet the 18" recommendation, but they meet the 12" minimum easily."
Why does an entire industry fail to go with the FBI's recommendations, caused by an actual shooting, and actual lack of penetration getting officers killed?
I submit that the 9MM could be tuned to meet that 18" using a lighter bullet, with a TC configuration, and get it's larger wound channel from velocity. It wouldn't look so spectacular in gello, but in the real
world might well prove far superior.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/9x19mm.htm
Look at the M882 video. If you lighten the bullet to less then 124 grains, somewhere you are going to get it to stop around 18", and you can increase velocity, since you have more powder space.
If you look at the video, you'll see the energy transfer is further in the block then the HP's. Also that the wound channel is much larger as the bullet exits the block, because it maintains
it's velocity through the target FAR better then the average HP.
That equation can be changed a bit using a Truncated Cone type bullet, that would create more energy transfer, and reduce the speed through target a bit.
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Hunter125
Member
I chose .40 as a compromise between 9 and .45. I wanted something bigger than a 9mm, but .45 was too much of a capacity compromise for me.
I think I had a bad taste in my mouth for 9mm because I don't care for my dad's G17, but I think it is more of a platform than a caliber issue.
I didn't get as in depth with my research as some of you, but the .40 seemed to be the best compromise of capacity vs diameter and also seemed to have better penetration than the others, especially through auto glass.
I don't find recoil or follow up shots too difficult, but that's a preference thing.
I think I had a bad taste in my mouth for 9mm because I don't care for my dad's G17, but I think it is more of a platform than a caliber issue.
I didn't get as in depth with my research as some of you, but the .40 seemed to be the best compromise of capacity vs diameter and also seemed to have better penetration than the others, especially through auto glass.
I don't find recoil or follow up shots too difficult, but that's a preference thing.
Thanks, prosser.
I hit the link you provided and noticed that they (beartoothbullets) state that they can't calculate actual penetration numbers (in inches or whatever)- unlike the Schwartz or MacPherson bullet penetration equations (which calculate both wound channel depth and cross-sectional diameter). Given that some assailants can be awfully large, I think that potential penetration is an important consideration.
Still, it is nice to have another way to model one aspect of terminal performance.
The impact creates waves, which reach deeper into the body, and/or the strike can convey energy into a depth of say 3-4"?
http://subfrost.webs.com/pressure points pic.jpg
A proximity strike with a bullet may create the same sort of trauma as an actual
strike.
http://subfrost.webs.com/pressure points pic.jpg
A proximity strike with a bullet may create the same sort of trauma as an actual
strike.
A bullet and a strike create completely different trauma. The strike is blunt force trauma, the gunshot wound is more akin to a stabbing. You're not looking for pressure points with a bullet, so much as you are vital organs. You're also not going to have the same surface area on a .45 as you will on a punch. That punch has a much greater chance of striking a pressure point.
Variable equation.
Seems as the bullet meplat goes up the reaction by the receiving body rises
exponentially.
Otherwise large handgun rounds .45 and above don't have anyway to quantify
observed reactions.
People have been shooting large animals with .450 and .500 Nitro Expresses, and larger bores, at sedate velocities, for well over a 150 years. What happens when they hit their target is pretty consistent, and not explained by physics of reaction.
It is explained by the reaction that locks up your entire leg with an ice pick stabbing that's fairly shallow, that hardly leaves a wound.
Now the question is how to quantify how that nerve reaction occurs, and why. Or we can just go with the .450 NE has historically, on the majority of shots, caused a reaction that makes the animal react severely, often times
having the animal leave it's feet. This action is often temporary, and the animal gets right back up.
Likewise lumbering 525 grain LFN .510" caliber bullets have killed hundred of thousands of buffalo at sedate speeds, attainable by handguns. Not only do they have a severe impact, but, they tend to leave two holes, that create blood holes and streams around 2" in diameter.
Seems as the bullet meplat goes up the reaction by the receiving body rises
exponentially.
Otherwise large handgun rounds .45 and above don't have anyway to quantify
observed reactions.
People have been shooting large animals with .450 and .500 Nitro Expresses, and larger bores, at sedate velocities, for well over a 150 years. What happens when they hit their target is pretty consistent, and not explained by physics of reaction.
It is explained by the reaction that locks up your entire leg with an ice pick stabbing that's fairly shallow, that hardly leaves a wound.
Now the question is how to quantify how that nerve reaction occurs, and why. Or we can just go with the .450 NE has historically, on the majority of shots, caused a reaction that makes the animal react severely, often times
having the animal leave it's feet. This action is often temporary, and the animal gets right back up.
Likewise lumbering 525 grain LFN .510" caliber bullets have killed hundred of thousands of buffalo at sedate speeds, attainable by handguns. Not only do they have a severe impact, but, they tend to leave two holes, that create blood holes and streams around 2" in diameter.
There is always assumption in that answer before a specific outcome. However, this is the case:
A) Anytime the resistence blocking the critical target exceeds the momentum of the lighter 9mm (or .40sw) but not the heavier .45acp.
And, yes, I made an illustrative chart for that, too:
Reasonable assumption on auto glass as a non-LE based on statisitcs, and also for those "face-to-face" encounters as long as you don't consider bones "any other object". Again, assuming an open, clear, frontal COM target I don't think it matters so much.
Bad guys have from another thread terrible habits:
They move.
They seek cover or concealment.
Most of their attacks are 2-3 guys, and 70% or so are in dim light.
As stated in that thread:
The larger calibers can turn cover into concealment, a major factor.
Where do you get that these encounters are face to face?
When guns get pulled, people usually move.
They move.
They seek cover or concealment.
Most of their attacks are 2-3 guys, and 70% or so are in dim light.
As stated in that thread:
The larger calibers can turn cover into concealment, a major factor.
Where do you get that these encounters are face to face?
When guns get pulled, people usually move.
wildehond
Member
I thought this will be thread why poeple that like the .40 and use it. Now it has yet again gone into the tiring OOOOOLLLLLDDDDD discussion about which calibre is best.
Can't we stick to a topic. Start a why "I like the .45" or why "9mm for me" thread.
Anyone that wants to gain some information form this site now has to troll trough pages of flame wars to get to some good info.
Iike the .45 and the 9mm much as the next guy. Currently I compete and carry a .40 and will be nice to see other peoples reasons for doing so. On the contrary I, and many others I am sure, now have to sit through useless discussions of Other calibres.
Can't we stick to a topic. Start a why "I like the .45" or why "9mm for me" thread.
Anyone that wants to gain some information form this site now has to troll trough pages of flame wars to get to some good info.
Iike the .45 and the 9mm much as the next guy. Currently I compete and carry a .40 and will be nice to see other peoples reasons for doing so. On the contrary I, and many others I am sure, now have to sit through useless discussions of Other calibres.
It's only useless discussion if you don't read it.
Kind of curious, speaking of trolling, how you are carrying a .40 in SA?
I thought pretty much all handguns except black powder for civilians are outlawed?
What did you bring to the discussion? Absolutely nothing.
Living near the murder capitol of the planet, it would seem that you might bring why you decided on the .40. Certainly that would be a valuable addition to the thread.
Kind of curious, speaking of trolling, how you are carrying a .40 in SA?
I thought pretty much all handguns except black powder for civilians are outlawed?
What did you bring to the discussion? Absolutely nothing.
Living near the murder capitol of the planet, it would seem that you might bring why you decided on the .40. Certainly that would be a valuable addition to the thread.
Reread OP's post. LOTS of discussion and comparison of 9mm vs. .40sw vs. .45acp. It's inherent to the discussion. My charts above addresses where the .40sw fits in the discussion IMO.
Regardless, to play along with the "Why" or "Why Not" .40sw, how about this method for evaluation of a caliber in a CCW size/weight gun for non-LE:
Key Characteristics
(best / better / good)
Recoil/Control: 9mm /.45acp / .40sw
Ammo Cost: 9mm / .40sw / .45acp
Gun Size/Weight (loaded): 9mm / .40sw / .45acp
Capacity: 9mm / .40sw / .45acp
Aggregate Performance: .45acp / .40sw / 9mm
Totals
9mm
best = 4
better = 0
good = 1
.40sw
best = 0
better = 4
good = 1
.45acp
best = 1
better = 1
good = 3
Simple Weighting Value
best = 3
better = 2
good = 1
Simple Weighting Score
9mm = 13
.40sw = 9
.45acp = 8
My Weighting Value Multiplier
Recoil/Control: x2 (i.e. best = 6, better = 4, good = 2)
Ammo Cost: x1
Gun Size/Weight (loaded): x1
Capacity: x1
Aggregate Performance: x2
My Totals
9mm = 17
.40sw = 12
.45acp = 13
My Opinion in a non-LE CCW for most shooters
9mm = 1st choice (ideal balance of attributes more than offset relative aggregate performance inferiority)
.45acp = 2nd choice (my 1st choice much of the time in two CCW guns I shoot as well as any CCW 9mm)
.40sw = 3rd choice (underperforms 9mm & .45acp in recoil/control and .45acp in aggregate performance - offers nothing I value over either)
Post title is "Argument for .40 caliber". Consider this my counter-argument.
IMO, the real differences of opinion are less the simple weighted scores, but the value multipliers. Example: If you value capacity at a x2 and aggregate performance at x1 it changes things somewhat. However, others will profess they all recoil and perform the same exactly despite reality and physics. And, reloaders will claim they all cost the same to shoot. And, so on... and on... and on... and on....
Boy, this has all been fun indeed.
wildehond
Member
My first reply to the thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8285133&postcount=36
Ok here goes.
Firstly I am a big believer in carry and using one handgun primarily. The use of it must be instinct. When you are under severe pressure. There is NO time to think. You have small chance to stay alive if everything is instinct. Form my experience I have seen people struggling to open a mag pouch or not know where their rifle is after a firefight. Fine motor skills go out the window. So this is my reason for wanting one handgun to do it all.
Why did I choose a 40 S&W.
1. I wanted something with heavier bullets that a 9mm. But also still easy to conceal and high capacity. This is Africa after all. When it kicks off in Africa it can go REALLY bad. The criminals carry AK47's and normally work in packs.
2. The 40S&W enables me to shoot in the standard class in major calibre IPSC and the local competition is quite high level. Shooting against people with STI's in Speed rings with a standard Glock 22 is a good test is you are up to it. If you are in touch with the front runners you have are doing OK. I shoot with a IDPA style rig in the IPSC matches. (Do not like the 10 round limit of IDPA.) The 'Practical' in IPSC is important to me.
3. I am out in remote places with my motorcycle and I might need something that have some more penetrating power at 50yards+. For the same reason also need something that has a chance against auto glass. The sectional density of the 180gr .40 calibre bullet is quite good. But I want something that is small enough to conceal but easy to manage with gloves on if it needs be. Again the 40S&W should do well here. Would have preferred a 10mm here, but the high cap 10mm guns are bit to big an the compact 10mm does not deliver enough mussel velocity with a shorter sight radius for longer shots. 10mm ammo is also VERY hard to come by here. Might still get that 10mm...
4. Good 40S&W self defence ammo is relatively easy to get locally
5. If the handgun is stolen the 'bad guy' will have a hell of a time to find 40S&W ammo for it since the military and police only use 9mm. You can not buy ammunition in South Africa without a license for that calibre firearm in your name. The purchase gets recorded in a register that the police inspects.
6. The Glock parts and accessories are readily available here and I can do all the work myself.
7. The mussel blast with 180gr bullet is not too bad indoors. If you need to shoot in a defencive roll inside a house you will probably not have ear protection on. This is what ruled out the 357 SIG for me. Still like the idea of the 357SIG. I have enough experience shooting .223 Nato indoors without protection to know how disorientating that can be. (Do not want to elaborate, but I have extensive experience and training fighting indoors with a R4, local Galil copy. )
8. The local PH (Professional Hunters) prefer heavier bullets that might move a bit slower and penetrate on dangerous game. High section density bullets that penetrate and are easier to shoot and light enough to carry everywhere compared to a .458 Lott or a British nitro express rifles. The 375 H&H and 416 Rigby is quite popular. But these are rifles?! Yes I know. But they also need to hit vital parts to stop an attack and temporary cavity means nothing. We have a BIG local problem with 'TIK' addicts. This drug fries the brain. And these addicts will only stop if he/she can not move anymore, like local dangerous game.
These are my reasons for picking the 40S&W in the Glock 22 platform. You might not agree with me, but this is my reasons. It is process to get a license here and you have to chose well and stick to what you have. If you are lucky you can get a license in four to six months. Some people have waited more than a year for a license to be issued.
About Firearms ownership in the Republic of South Africa.
It is a bit of a process to get a license to own a firearm in South Africa. But it is possible and much easier if you can prove that you belong to, and compete in an accredited* shooting association's matches. You get points for each match determined by the level you shoot at. As an example a regional match has more points than a club match an so forth. So if you keep competing you can get a license for some nice firearms. A semi-auto rifle is quite process to get license for but possible to do as long as you compete with it.
You also need to go for training and apply for competence in type of firearm that you want to own and the role you want to use it in, even before you can get a license for that firearms.
Firearms licenses also have to be renewed every 5-10 years depending on the type of license. So it is important to keep your competence and sport shooters status up to date.
14 years ago there was an attempt to make firearms ownership almost impossible, but we did the South African thing and did a few marches and got some really hardcore lawyers involved. Mr. Martin Hood, the chairman of the South African Gun owners Association (SAGA), is a really good ambassador for us legal firearms owners. http://www.saga.org.za/
* By the South Africa Police Service (SAPS), The shooting association must fall under the rules set out by the Firearms Control act to be accredited a sport shooting of hunting association in South Africa.
About firearms in South Africa. It is a bit of a process to get a license to own a firearm in South Afirca. But it is possible and much easier if you can prove that you belong to and compete in an accridited, by the South Africa Police Service.
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