JR24
Member
Sure. That must be why almost every well known firearms trainer with combat experience carries 9mm. They're just trying to "justify their choice of caliber".
It's a conspiracy!
Which bullet does the 9mm use that .40 S&W and .45 acp can't?
- Thread starter Trey Veston
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It's a conspiracy!
It must be. It's almost universal too. All the companies that make 9mm bullets must be paying them all off!
CoalTrain49
Member
https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/fbi-picks-9mm/
I'll go with this. They did the research and the taxpayer paid for it. Why not use it?
I used to be a 9mm hater. Always liked 45 ACP for everything, including carry. I bought a compact 9mm Sig just to see what all of the 9mm talk was about. I soon learned a few things. Compact 9mm is easier to conceal and carry. 9mm is easier to hit with. 9mm has the potential for more capacity. 9mm is cheaper to train with.
Training is way more important than cartridge selection. How many people here who say that 40 or 45 is an advantage train once a month with their EDC. Probably very few.
I'll go with this. They did the research and the taxpayer paid for it. Why not use it?
I used to be a 9mm hater. Always liked 45 ACP for everything, including carry. I bought a compact 9mm Sig just to see what all of the 9mm talk was about. I soon learned a few things. Compact 9mm is easier to conceal and carry. 9mm is easier to hit with. 9mm has the potential for more capacity. 9mm is cheaper to train with.
Training is way more important than cartridge selection. How many people here who say that 40 or 45 is an advantage train once a month with their EDC. Probably very few.
Zerodefect
member
Because they're promoting what they know their students will excel with, the quickest. 9mm is the easiest way forward, except for people that do best with 1911's. Lead by example. And still the cheapest training ammo to shoot.
They aren't going to tell you that 9mm outperforms .40 in tissue or gell. Or that 9mm will outperform .357sig around cars. Because that's nonsense.
And many are still going to pick a .45 1911 for any offensive missions. But they aren't going to flaunt that during a defensive pistol class.
Ya'll need to get over the fact that there is more than one caliber available for darn good reasons.
Elkins45
Member
Yes, you are guessing.
rpenmanparker
Member
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The darn goodest reason there is more than one caliber available is that folks can't agree on what is best. Classic case of chicken or egg.
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cheygriz
member
Elkins45
Member
Hide?Hide and watch!
If we go back to what started this commotion, it was the story about improved 9mm bullets. That wasn't marketing so much as ignorant/lazy reporting on studies based on a lot of evidence. "Magic bullets" is a lot easier way to explain changes in design, materials, pistol form factors, tactics, criminal behavior, training and a world of other variables. Empirical data analysis is more than reporters, commentators and bloggers and their readers are equipped or inclined to understand. Point taken, OP.
Believe what you want. Listen to experts you trust and be glad that you can choose what to use.
Believe what you want. Listen to experts you trust and be glad that you can choose what to use.
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Garandimal
member
Then why was the DMR implemented, and why is the DoD ditching the 5.56 round?
As for ammo and rifle wt. only humped, lighter is always better.
It's when you actually need it to save your life that you miss the extra wt.
GR
Garandimal
member
Nietzsche?
Agencies controlled by bean-counters and mouse-wristed pogues maybe.
Fret not. When a decade or two of field results for the 9mm are tabulated and compiled... and the "new" has worn off that sweet young thing, the 9mm Euro?
The .40 and .45 ACP will still be here, doing what they have always done.
...replacing the 9mm with a more effective cartridge.
GR
GunnyUSMC
Member
Sometimes these topics remind me of NASCAR fans arguing. They all love cars, own cars, and drive faster then the should, but more then 90% of them have never been in a real race.
Madcap_Magician
Member
DMR program was implemented because of the decrease in effective range and accuracy by riflemen largely equipped with carbines rather than full-size rifles. Many DMR rifles are built on M16s in 5.56 anyway, not all of them are M14s. DoD is not ditching the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO. The Army Times is always talking about them doing that, but they've been doing that probably since Robert McNamara was SecDef.
Lighter is also better when it allows you to carry more. Sometimes bigger and more powerful ammunition is nice to have. But maybe one day you'd also miss the lighter ammunition that you'd still have a couple magazines left of over the heavier ammunition you just ran out of.
If they ever did, what would be the point of gun forums, though?
Zerodefect
member
Just curious.
If the home made body armor used in "the bank robbery" was the big event that pushed the popularity of .40 and .357SIG..........
Is the new 9mm any better at defeating that?
If the home made body armor used in "the bank robbery" was the big event that pushed the popularity of .40 and .357SIG..........
Is the new 9mm any better at defeating that?
Garandimal
member
You will probably run out of the lighter ammunition faster anyway - you have to keep shooting them until they finally go down.
GR
Mainsail
Member
I'm still looking for a story about a private citizen acting in self-defense ever needing to reload, but even one story wouldn't indicate a need.
Too many threads tend towards armchair commando-ism, citing a "need" for tactical gear, more ammo that a citizen would ever need, and other such.
Meh, carry whatever makes you feel most comfortable. For me that's .357 Sig, 40 S&W, or .45ACP. The magazine may carry a couple fewer rounds, but I can always carry a spare mag. What someone else caries and why makes no difference to me.
Zerodefect
member
You can find examples of a revolver or little 1911 running empty, and only getting one non-vital hit. That might be close.
I also run the most horsepower I can depending on pistol size. Bigger calibers, for bigger easier to hold pistols. .40 and .45 are still my favorites.
I also run the most horsepower I can depending on pistol size. Bigger calibers, for bigger easier to hold pistols. .40 and .45 are still my favorites.
I don't know the answer to this so I'm asking it here... Wasn't the 40 S&W the first caliber to benefit from improved bullet technology after the 1986 Miami shootout?
I thought ammo manufacturers were rushing to make better bullets for the FBI and the FBI was using 40 S&W weren't they ?
I don't remember what bullets came out when, but it would seem to me that the newer bullets like Black Talon and HST would have come out in 40 S&W first.
I thought ammo manufacturers were rushing to make better bullets for the FBI and the FBI was using 40 S&W weren't they ?
I don't remember what bullets came out when, but it would seem to me that the newer bullets like Black Talon and HST would have come out in 40 S&W first.
And just a side note - I don't think very many ammo manufacturers ever sat down and figured out how to optimize performance for the 380 ACP.
IMO, they just copied their 9mm design shape to the lighter 380 and called it a day. Hornady XTP may be the exception to that or maybe Hornady just got lucky that their XTP bullet just happened to perform well when ported to the 380 ACP.
IMO, they just copied their 9mm design shape to the lighter 380 and called it a day. Hornady XTP may be the exception to that or maybe Hornady just got lucky that their XTP bullet just happened to perform well when ported to the 380 ACP.
The thing I don't understand is why some people get so bent out of shape if others disagree with them. I made my choices about defensive calibers for handguns a long time ago. I consider 9mm the minimum caliber for personal defense with a handgun. I do own a couple of 9mm's & have carried them. I prefer .40 for carry as long as it a compact or full sized gun. I just don't like the idea of shooting .40 out of a subcompact pistol. I do believe .40 does a better job of penetration than 9mm. I am okay with giving up 2 rounds of capacity for what I believe to be a slightly better cartridge. I also own a .45 though I seldom carry it. About the only time I carry my .45 or .357 is if I'm going to the woods.
So why is it a big deal to someone else if I choose to shoot & carry .40 ,45 or 9mm. I understand the folks who have said what they carry & why they carry it & leave it at that. What I fail to understand is why people feel the need to argue that they are right & those who disagree are wrong because they choose to use a different cartridge. It doesn't really make sense.
So why is it a big deal to someone else if I choose to shoot & carry .40 ,45 or 9mm. I understand the folks who have said what they carry & why they carry it & leave it at that. What I fail to understand is why people feel the need to argue that they are right & those who disagree are wrong because they choose to use a different cartridge. It doesn't really make sense.
GunnyUSMC
Member
That's just how Grumpy Old Men Are.
I have always said that you should carry the largest caliber that you can handle proficiently. But take into account that mag capacity and the fact that in a high stress situation you don't shoot as good as you would at the range.
Over twenty years ago a guy named Blackburn was stopped by a Hwy Patrol Officer for a traffic violation. While the Officer was talking to Blackburn, outside of their vehicles, Blackburn pulled a North American 22 revolver from his pocket and shot the Officer one time from about 4 feet away. The Officer pulled his 357 revolver and shot Blackburn 4 or 5 times in the upper body. Blackburn fell to the ground and the Officer took cover behind his vehicle and called for backup and that he had be shot. All of this was caught on the Officer's dash cam. The Officer died. Blackburn is still doing life in prison.
This true story is to remind those that you don't always win the fight even if you have the bigger gun.
Zerodefect
member
It's simply $100 less a case.
That's the real popularity of 9mm. All the other reasons are just to feel better about choosing the weakest acceptable defense round. That's why some are so vehement about caliber discussions.
Raise it's price to .40/.45 levels and see what happens.
That's the real popularity of 9mm. All the other reasons are just to feel better about choosing the weakest acceptable defense round. That's why some are so vehement about caliber discussions.
Raise it's price to .40/.45 levels and see what happens.
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Cheaper works for me. I buy more, shoot more, enjoy shooting more, get better at it, gain confidence, carry more, and life is good.
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