45acp vs .223

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The velocity imparted to the various bits of tissue, bone, organs hit will cause secondary missiles within the body. Witness the exploding melon, water jug.
The higher the velocity the more damage.
Terminal target Tumbling is a function of bullet design, not twist rate.
There is a world of differance between 850FPS and 2800FPS.
 
Back in the early 1980's Soldier Of Fortune magazine did an extensive article on the wound cavities caused by the .223 during Viet Nam. It was pretty impressive. The cavitation properties of the .223 far surpass the .45.
 
223 any day,it is moving so fast speed does make a difference when you get up around or over 3000 fps. a 45 is only 1000 fps big difference
Have you guys saying 45 every shot water jugs or anything with a 223,it will blow the jugs up.They will fly 10 feet in the air sometimes.I have never shot a deer with a 223 but a 243 and it does masive damage just from the shock of the bullet moving so fast,it turns internal organs to mush
 
nova the op did not specify hollowpoints so i assumed fmj tbh this thread lacks in the specifics of the question... which is necessary when discussing ballistics...

and to the person who said 45 is 1000 fps.. sometimes manufacturers advertise over 1000fps 45 but in the 230grain its rare to see.... and when talking about 45 i think the 230 grain is the best 1... but thats a different discussion as well


finally majic why do you insist on arguing i already said i would test it again... why dont we just let the test do the talking.. but to asnwer your question as far as i know it "knows" to tumble based on the length of the bullet the angle of the point, and the speed to weight ratio (not to mention the weight, being a lighter bullet will loose momentum faster than a heavy bullet when it meets resistance
 
Energy:

5.56mm: 1700-1830 Joules

.45 ACP: 500-700 Joules


Rather be hit with neither but if you gotta get hit, I would rather take a hit with the .45...
 
I have seen and treated quite a few GSW's in the last 20 years. Not as many as a combat medic, but my partner is a Navy Corpsman who has seen quite a bit of combat duty, and has seen more GSW's than I have.

The two of us both feel that in our experience, .223 makes a far larger hole than does .45ACP. I think that this is due to the MUCH higher velocity of the .223.
 
Man, there has been some bad info posted lately, but there has also been some attempt by some to correct it.

1. Yes, .223 will tumble. Actually, all bullets that are longer than their width will eventually tumble in. There are factors that determine the distance it will pass through a medium before it will tumble.

2. The statement that .223/5.56 tumbles because of the twist rate isn't correct. The twist rate determines if it will be stabilized through air, it doesn't determine if it will tumble through flesh.

3. Tumbling is only part of the equation. Fragmentation and penetration are the two key components when talking about .223/5.56. Many, not all, 5.56/.223 bullets have the potential to fragment above certain velocities. The fragmentation creates a larger Permanent cavity, which is important.

4. As mentioned, penetration is important. Fragmentation is good, but only if the bullet penetrates to the required depth. Most testing agencies recommend 12" in calibrated ballistic gelatin.

As for the initial question:

A properly designed bullet for the .223/5.56 will do significantly more damage to an attacker than a .45ACP will do, even up close.

I have posted these links prior, and I know others have as well. Anyone interested in Terminal Ballistics would do well to go here.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

http://www.tacticalforums.com
 
i just had to ask to see the responses i pitted the 2 calibers with the greatest fanatical following against each other

to further expound what hand gun if any would it take to meet or exceed the 223 at a close range? 500s&wmag
or would it just pass through?
 
I would rather have an M4 than a .45 in CQB anyday. Of course, I'd rather have a shotgun than either of those in that situation...

Stopping power is nebulous.
 
memphisjim said:
i just had to ask to see the responses i pitted the 2 calibers with the greatest fanatical following against each other

to further expound what hand gun if any would it take to meet or exceed the 223 at a close range? 500s&wmag
or would it just pass through?

I am sure that the answer to your last question could be answered fairly easily with some ballistic gelatin, and a few rounds.
 
Kinetic energy does not tell the whole story, and neither does bullet diameter.

At 10 yards, any spitzer type bullet is capable of tumbling, they really don't stabilize until they are out a bit further than that. You can be shooting north, and a short distance from the muzzle the bullet can be pointing northwest.:what:

So, even in a best/worst case scenario, (.45 JHP fired from a 16" carbine barrel vs. SS109 fired from a 7 1/2" barrel), the .223 is going to come out on top.

Now, stretch it out to a 100 meters, and the situation reverses itself. Yes, I know many will argue with me. Think about it, though. At that range, the .223 bullet has stabilized, will possibly make an ice pick type injury, with yawing. (Yaw is the word that most people mean when they say tumble).

The .45 hollow point is still going very close to its intended velocity window. The carbine length barrel accelerates it some what, and being sub sonic, it does not slow down very much within that distance. (It does start to drop a lot, though).

Its a funny world.
 
10 yards? Then you're asking about a human target. I was in Vietnam in 68 & 69. I saw, VC and NVA shot with both calibers from close range. They both dropped the intended target every time. The 223 did leave a small hole on the entry and did not always exit directly in line with the the entry wound. The exit wound was somewhat larger. The 45 also made a small hole going in and a somewhat larger one upon exit. Sometimes there was no exit wound, but that was true with the 223 as well. As I said, and as people said before me - they both stopped the intended target equally well. I don't think it made any difference to the target what they were killed with. They were both designed as man stoppers and they both worked well. In VN, we used, I believe a lighter bullet, which was designed to tumble since the VC and NVA were so small and thin. It did as the designers envisioned.
 
Firstly, the .223 is not a wounding weapon, who makes this stuff up anyway?

Now remember the first rule of gunfighting, take a rifle!!!

As mentioned by plenty of peoplem excepting some of the really minor caliber rifles the .223 and up have loads more energy, or whatever you choose to measure, than any defensive pistol round. I have 16" carbines in .223, 9mm and .45 ACP, in a self defense situation you can bet the one I go for first is the .223 loaded with 55gr. softpoints.

As for the argument at 100 yards it's just nonsense if using an expanding bullet. The .223 has plenty of velocity to expand, I haven't measured mine at 100 but I'm thinking it's close to non-expanding velocity by then. Even if using .223 FMJ it will still have enough velocity to fragment.
 
I want some of what ya'll are smoking...

I can't believe it took two pages to finally get some common sense in this topic.

The .22 caliber bullet was not designed tumble and the .223 chambering did not reinvent the .22 caliber bullet. The original M16s bullets tumbled because Colt purposely rifled the barrels wrong. The idea was to increase the wounding because it was a big step to go from a 150 grain .30 caliber down to a 55 grain .22 caliber bullet. The Army then requested the rifling to be corrected for the caliber and that was the end of the tumbling. Ask any hunter using the .223 if their bullets tumble. Now those using bullets that expand will have extra damage, but those using FMJs, such as a pelt hunter, will have a .22 inch hole going in the animal and coming out.

Wrong, on all accounts. You said a lot there, and yet nothing at all. That takes a lot of practice and revision. Usually, people who say that much say at least something right, even if it is on accident. It is the theory of probability. Like a broken clock being right twice a day. But not you. Wrong. Just wrong. You should be a politician.

All spitzer (pointed) bullets have their center of gravity towards their base due to their shape. This makes them naturally inclined to fly base forward. This tendency is why rifles have rifling, which imparts a spin on them that makes them stable, like spinning a top. However, they are only stable as long as they are spinning above a certain rotational velocity, and the necessary rotational velocity depends on the density of the medium being traveled through, and the length of the projectile. The longer the projectile is, or the more dense the medium is, the faster the bullet must be spinning in order to stabilize.

All spitzer bullets then can be stable in air but unstable in tissue, because tissue is more dense than air. So all spitzer bullets have a natural tendency to yaw and travel base forward in tissue. The variable is how long it takes them to do this. Some, like the standard 7.62mm M80 ball round can penetrate 8 inches or more in tissue before displaying any significant yawing. Others, like both M193 and M855 ball for the 5.56, start yawing in about half that distance, as observed by Fackler in both calibrated ballistic gelatin and his observation of actual battlefield wounds.

Now, if my understanding of the 5.56's history and development is correct, the original twist rate for the M16 was 1:14. The military observed that this twist rate was not fast enough to stabilize the projectile in artic conditions. Colder air is more dense than warm air and requires a faster twist rate. So it was changed to 1:12, which is still pretty slow for the caliber. When the military switched to the heavier 62 gr M855 round, a faster twist rate was needed because the bullet is longer than the lighter 55 gr M193, so the standard twist rate was changed to 1:7, which is pretty fast, but assures the bullet is adequately stabilized for all atmospheric conditions. It also comes in handy when using the heavier 77 gr Mk 262 Mod 1 rounds.

The 5.56 does yaw, and within a certain velocity threshold, out to about 140 to 160 yards, does fragment on a regular basis.

But the heart of the issue and the most disturbing trend I see in this thread is that people don't realize that rifles and rifles, and pistols are pistols.

As a pistol round, I am big fan of the .45. As a rifle round, I am not a huge fan of the 5.56. However, if I ever have a choice between the two, I am picking the 5.56 without hesitation. Because it is a rifle round, and even a borderline anemic rifle round is worlds better than a moderately powerful handgun round.

This was a true and false question. There were two choices and even if you didn't know, you had a 50% chance of getting the right one. If you picked the .45, you're wrong.
 
Itgoesboom explained it first but he posted supporting links.

Do you know how hard it is to click on a supporting link and read the associated material? It is like doing homework that dosen't get graded. Who is going to do that?
 
They were both designed as man stoppers ...

No, they were not. However, feel free to cite sources that show how the design of the .223 or .45 acp bullets were developed specifically to stop people.

The were specifically put into use by the military to stop people, but I have yet to see any documentation to substantiate that they were "designed" to stop people.

Just curious, how does a people stopping design differ from that of an animal stopping design?

As noted by others, specifically lastly by MTMilitiaman, the .223 is nothing more than a spitzer round and it performs as preceding spitzer rounds perform. To that I will add that the .45 ACP was nothing more than just a ball round, in no way significantly different than other ball rounds.
 
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