5.56 vs Foster Slug?

[CDW4ME]

I wouldnt wanna be shot by either.

And either is "better than nothing".

 

[tark]

At close range, I'll take buckshot over either. That is; 50 feet or less and assuming we're talking two legged critters.

 

[BreechFace]

How much of that slugs energy leaves with it out the back of the target? What's beyond the target that's going to get a 1oz slug as well?

How much of the JHP energy of the 5.56 leaves out the back of the target?

Sure a slug punches a big hole, but I would guess that the 5.56 leave a larger % of it's energy into the target along with high-velocity wounding characteristics. But does the slug leave enough of it's energy to still outperform the 5.56 energy and expansion?

At close distances the shot for shot limitation would probably have me choose the 1oz slug, but if one said you have 1 second to get shots into a target. AR in 5.56 JHP's hands down, no question.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Foster slug (5 cm = 2 inches):


5.56 M193:

 

[damyankee425]

Well, I have both. It's just a matter of which one I'm closest to when the need arises. Also in a home defense setting, "break in". There's just something un nerving when you hear a pump action load a shell in the chamber

 

[entropy]

Why would you short yourself a round in such a low capacity gun? All they'd hear from my shotgun might be the 'snick' of the safety. They will then hear a loud command voice and see a cavernous 12 ga. bore.

 

[dogtown tom]

Which is more effective on a human attacker?

1. 5.56mm JHP load
2. 12 Gauge 1 oz Foster slug

Depends on where it says hello to the attacker. Shot placement beats caliber every time.
A .50BMG on the other hand kills even when it misses the target.

 

[warnerwh]

At close range I'd feel very confident with a slug, not so much with a .223 even if it's a JHP.

 

[Scout21]

Considering that you said "LE and home defense" and one of the options is a shotgun slug I will assume that you mean close range. In that case, slug all day everyday. There's just no matching a 3/4" hunk of lead getting slung at mid-1000s fps. The 30 rounds of 5.56 in the magazine would be awfully reassuring compared to <10 shotgun slugs, though.

I was told a story by a family member who was in LE for a bit. Their Field Training Officer told them of a call that they responded to. A stepfather was beating on his teenage stepson's mother. As you can guess, the stepson didn't approve of this behavior. The kid retrieved a shotgun loaded with 00 buck, the stepdad dared him to shoot him while lunging at the kid, and the stepdad ended up with what was described as a moderate entrance wound on his chest, and a fist sized crater on his back. Considering the relatively tame entrance wound they weren't expecting such damage when they rolled the guy over to see the exit wound. The encounter supposedly happened within a few yards inside of a home. Not a slug, but might as well have been considering the distance to the person on the receiving end.

 

[entropy]

The exit wound from a slug would have been smaller, though still rather impressive.

 

[shoobe01]

I vote 5.56 because the poll says "effective," and I reject pure "shot-for-shot" comparisons. Same argument in some ways as the 9 vs .45 and you can see this in shooting statistics for all these; easier to shoot thing is shot more, for more total expended shots, more total hits.

Small caliber centerfire rifle beats the shotgun for:

• Range, nearly no loss of velocity over the typical (LE/HD) distances. 1:1 advantage.
• Trajectory, so lack of needing to accurately range at typical (LE/HD) distances. 1:1 advantage.
• Recoil, so possible to see terminal effects, follow up quickly and effectively
• Recoil, so reduced chance of flinch, increased chance of first round hit, esp if incapacitated, wounded, in an unusual position. 1:1 advantage.
• Weight and size, making the platform easier to shoot in odd positions, in almost all platforms. 1:1 advantage.
• Easier mounting of accessories, such as lights and sights, to increase chances of accurate target detection, ID, and improve hit probability, on almost all platforms. 1:1 advantage.
• Capacity as total firepower counts; why shoot them once when 2-3 increases your chances?
• Ability to reload rapidly, more divorced from skill than the shotgun (carriage of magazines vs shells, as well as mag reload vs stuffing shells).
• Penetration of heavy clothing, and body armor; slugs can be stopped even by soft armor (though backface deformation may be well past "successful stop" ranges). Rifles will require plates to stop. 1:1 advantage.
• Penetration of intermediate barriers, esp if a barrier-blind bullet is used. 1:1 advantage.
• Reduced overpenetration risks. 1:1 advantage.

I am further disregarding "JHP" and assuming "Effective terminal-effects projectile."

 

[Elkins45]

The correct answer is missing from the poll. 12 gauge 00 buck gives you up to nine wound tracks per shot. At typical home defense ranges it’s often no different than a slug but the chance of pellet divergence inside the recipient increases the chances of damaging other vital structures.

Ask yourself this: if I were only allowed to fire a single shot to disable an attacker what round would I choose? Yes, I know that’s not a real restriction, but imagine if your gun jammed on the second shot. What round would you prefer had made contact with your one good shot? buckshot > slug > 22 cal for people. Swap buckshot and slugs for bears.

Edit: I came back to edit this for a couple of extra thoughts. One is about body armor. People in favor of 223 used penetration of body armor as a consideration, but how well does that really work given that the OP specified expanding JHP ammo instead of FMJ or green tip? The second is about all those stories we heard from Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq veterans about having to riddle guys with holes before they went down. Do we suddenly not believe them?

In regards to body armor and the shotgun: unless he’s wearing a full armored suit then follow up shots to the head or pelvis could get the job done. This is perhaps the one place where FMJ has the clear advantage, but I don’t know that it’s a persuasive argument in favor of loading a carbine with penetrators.

It’s really starting to sound like a tanker Garand might be the best option LOL.

 

[trackskippy]

If buckshot comes into this, Id take #1 Buck over 00. Twice the pellet count and very similar sized pellet, .30 vs .33. And for this sort of thing and at the most likely distances, I would take buckshot over slugs.

The 5.56 is going to penetrate most pistol vests. There are even some handgun rounds that can. The shotgun wont, slug or buck. Not that Id want to get shot with either while wearing a vest.

As far as combat reports, I always take that stuff with a big grain of salt, unless I know the person personally and well, and with some that I do, an even bigger grain of salt. I think a lot of the stories of things not working were more due to misses and poor hits, than anything else. You have to "shoot" and "hit", and then actually hit the important parts, vs "shooting at" someone. And you have to hit what needs hit for things to work, and even then that's not always a guarantee.

If the above emphasizes anything, its having the "shoot them to the ground" mentality well ingrained in your brain, with anything you use. There are no magic bullets or calibers.

 

[damyankee425]

Why would you short yourself a round in such a low capacity gun? All they'd hear from my shotgun might be the 'snick' of the safety. They will then hear a loud command voice and see a cavernous 12 ga. bore.

Well, give them a chance to leave, so I could avoid a big mess to clean up after.

 

[entropy]

And if they don't? You've just told them where you are, and that you are down one round.

 

[Space Ghost]

I voted for the 5.56.

The 12 ga slug will hit much harder, and do much more damage. Yeah, I know, a lot of people think that means I should have picked that. However, to be effective, you have to hit the target. What's the thing that shoots the 12 ga slug verses what shoots the 5.56?

1. A shotgun is normally a good bit heavier than AR. It will be more difficult to move with, and slower to swing onto target, or from target to target... if more than one.
2. The shotgun will recoil much more, making it more difficult to shoot well, and slower between shots if multiple targets are there. It may also cause flinching in recoil sensitive shooters.
3. The rifle is easier to learn on in marksmanship, loading, reloading... pretty much everything, making a better skilled shooter, and doing it sooner.
4. The rifle can have much greater magazine capacity making for more capability should there be multiple attackers, or should there be a miss. (this happens often when scared & rushed)

Although the 12 ga slug round is by far the more devastating at defensive ranges, the 5.56 make much better sense due to the delivery system that shoots it. It's still plenty enough bullet to get the job done. In fact many (myself included) would tend to say a 12 ga slug may be a bit overkill on a human target. May as well hunt grasshoppers with a 10/22.

 

[entropy]

I voted for the 5.56.

The 12 ga slug will hit much harder, and do much more damage. Yeah, I know, a lot of people think that means I should have picked that. However, to be effective, you have to hit the target. What's the thing that shoots the 12 ga slug verses what shoots the 5.56?

1. A shotgun is normally a good bit heavier than AR. It will be more difficult to move with, and slower to swing onto target, or from target to target... if more than one.
2. The shotgun will recoil much more, making it more difficult to shoot well, and slower between shots if multiple targets are there. It may also cause flinching in recoil sensitive shooters.
3. The rifle is easier to learn on in marksmanship, loading, reloading... pretty much everything, making a better skilled shooter, and doing it sooner.
4. The rifle can have much greater magazine capacity making for more capability should there be multiple attackers, or should there be a miss. (this happens often when scared & rushed)

Although the 12 ga slug round is by far the more devastating at defensive ranges, the 5.56 make much better sense due to the delivery system that shoots it. It's still plenty enough bullet to get the job done. In fact many (myself included) would tend to say a 12 ga slug may be a bit overkill on a human target. May as well hunt grasshoppers with a 10/22.

All reasons I chose one for SWMBO. I have tons of experience with the AR platform, so it remains as a choice for me also, but I have a 12 ga. pump at the ready also. Been firing them since I was 18, hunted with them, competed with them, practice slug and buck with them. But if I grab the AR instead, the job will be done just as well with that.

 

[westernrover]

I want both, but let's face it, there's much less threat to your liberty to own a 12 guage slug gun. Therefore, it gets a lower priority.

 

[Ironicaintit]

12 gauge all day.

 

[481]

Depends on the range.

...and what the slug/bullet hits. Placement is important.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

...and what the slug/bullet hits. Placement is important.

Especially if it hits a Level IIIa body armor panel. The slug won't penetrate but the 5.56 will slice through it like it was tissue paper.

 

[kje54]

I've never had a foster anything, no foster children, no foster pets..........

 

[Jerry M]

Especially if it hits a Level IIIa body armor panel. The slug won't penetrate but the 5.56 will slice through it like it was tissue paper.

I would like to see the individual who could take a slug in the chest, at 50 yards or less and be able to function in an effective way, even with a vest. Just saying what a huge impact...

 

[Goosey]

Seems a little unfair. I think you could make it a more interesting competition by specifying a low-recoil tactical slug vs the 5.56. A lot less expansion on a slug going 300-400 fps slower.

 

[481]

I would like to see the individual who could take a slug in the chest, at 50 yards or less and be able to function in an effective way, even with a vest. Just saying what a huge impact...

That'd be one helluva bruise for sure and definitely a challenging case of BABT to be sure.