5.56/.223 vs .357 Magnum Carbine?
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Shifty
Member
I have seen personally the wounds and deaths of human beings from both. 5.56 hands down. Trust me. Not even close.
Shifty
Member
I mean seriously, platform aside, why would you want to shoot someone with a handgun round if you had a rifle? For bear or boar, garret and buffalo bore make awesome deep penetrating hunting ammo.........for hunting . People are soft meat. Again, I speak from 12 years of trauma experience. For home defense, 5.56.
meanmrmustard
Member
Its legal in mine.And there's your answer. Not fit for a medium game.
The military has different requirements than a home owner.
I've used 556 for over a decade to take medium sized game with reliable and effective success. So, I imagine if I find it more than adequate to kill a deer, then I'd have no qualms as a defense round.
I've not used a 357 for deer. But I know Ayoob states that it's a good one shot stopper. But, my experience with the chest cavities of deer I've taken persuades me to go 556 on this one.
ECVMatt
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Why would you want to use a pistol round out of rifle:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm
I think the point is that the .357 is a different animal when fired from longer barrels.
Some would argue that the .223/5.56 is not a true rifle round either…
I have shot deer, pigs and even a cow with a .357 carbine at close range and they all died instantly. Now I realize that these things don't shoot back, but the pigs did not chance to bite me which was nice. I realize that the .223 makes bigger holes and that is good, but the .357 kills just as dead.
I would say pick the rifle that suits you best.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm
I think the point is that the .357 is a different animal when fired from longer barrels.
Some would argue that the .223/5.56 is not a true rifle round either…
I have shot deer, pigs and even a cow with a .357 carbine at close range and they all died instantly. Now I realize that these things don't shoot back, but the pigs did not chance to bite me which was nice. I realize that the .223 makes bigger holes and that is good, but the .357 kills just as dead.
I would say pick the rifle that suits you best.
WestKentucky
Member
Just to clarify...30-30 and .357 are not the same bore diameter. .308 bore vs .357 bore also the powders are different, velocities different...it's a closer comparison then 223 to 357 but still not very close.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Oh, duh! I don't know how I missed that. .357 > .30.
I guess this depends on the OP's threat profile...
What is the OP expecting in terms of criminal threats in his area? How long does local law enforcement take to arrive if called? Are there family members or others involved in the home that need to be taken into consideration? What barriers are in place in the home that would present over penetration problems? This thought process will dictate a lot.
As to calibers, each will work. The 5.56 with the right ammunition has lower penetration through barriers typically found in a home. The 357 is typically louder and may penetrate more, which is good to consider given the anticipation of having to fire the weapon in an enclosed space like a small room, etc.
If the OP is anticipating a home invasion or illegal aliens invading his property, then the 5.56 in a platform like an AR would make more sense.
If the OP is concerned with having to answer the door at night and still protect himself, then I would recommend a handgun on his person and a long gun in a safe room.
If the OP wants a multi-purpose carbine for home defense, hunting, plinking, then either will need to be considered in light of the type of game to be hunted.
I hope this helps...
What is the OP expecting in terms of criminal threats in his area? How long does local law enforcement take to arrive if called? Are there family members or others involved in the home that need to be taken into consideration? What barriers are in place in the home that would present over penetration problems? This thought process will dictate a lot.
As to calibers, each will work. The 5.56 with the right ammunition has lower penetration through barriers typically found in a home. The 357 is typically louder and may penetrate more, which is good to consider given the anticipation of having to fire the weapon in an enclosed space like a small room, etc.
If the OP is anticipating a home invasion or illegal aliens invading his property, then the 5.56 in a platform like an AR would make more sense.
If the OP is concerned with having to answer the door at night and still protect himself, then I would recommend a handgun on his person and a long gun in a safe room.
If the OP wants a multi-purpose carbine for home defense, hunting, plinking, then either will need to be considered in light of the type of game to be hunted.
I hope this helps...
Rebel Soul
Member
Splitting hairs over the ballistics of these 2 rounds is absurd. :banghead:
Both are empiracally proven man stoppers. Both can kill large animals. Cripes. My dad can beat up your dad.
They are completely different platforms. One holds 30 rounds and is semi automatic. One holds 10 rounds and is lever action.
Either one will be fun to shoot and will serve as a fine HD/target shooting weapon.
Buy the one you want the most and be done with it. Then start saving up to get the other.
Problem solved.
You're welcome.
Both are empiracally proven man stoppers. Both can kill large animals. Cripes. My dad can beat up your dad.
They are completely different platforms. One holds 30 rounds and is semi automatic. One holds 10 rounds and is lever action.
Either one will be fun to shoot and will serve as a fine HD/target shooting weapon.
Buy the one you want the most and be done with it. Then start saving up to get the other.
Problem solved.
You're welcome.
ExAgoradzo
Member
IDK why I want to post but JIC you care. I prefer the Marlin. I own that 19th cent AR and I don't own a 20th cent AR. It really does depend on what you like. Now me, the 357 is the undisputed greatest pistol cal of all time (tongue firmly in cheek!). The mod guys win hands down for ARs but again, what do YOU want. I love my 1894, both of them 44 mag as well...which I like a little bit more... There won't be an end to this debate except when you pick the gun you like...
ExAgoradzo
Member
You and me both ECVMatt... Which one shall we get?
d2wing
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I hunt with both rounds. You should use soft point expanding bullets, not fmj in the .223 but either way there is no comparison. The .223 is vastly better at killing at any range. And yes it will easily kill 250 lb deer, I have pictures of a 14 point Minnesota buck. Not one of your puny Southern rabbits. The .357 is a great pistol round and will also do the job. And it is the best cartridge in a police size weapon. But if I were to use a pistol cartridge in a rifle I would go .44 mag and use hollow points. Expansion is key in tissue destruction and shot placement is most important. Not the weapon. The .357 is a pretty good call but with the right bullets the .223 is better. Just get what you like and hope to never use it.
ECVMatt
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I am lusting for a Marlin 1894CP. I have the .44 Mag version and it is wonderful. However, most JM Marlins are priced out of my budget, so I might look at a Cimarron Arms 1892. I might even think about a Ruger 77/357 to tide me over. I currently have a couple of Winchester Trappers and a H&R Handi-Rifle Trapper.
Back to the OP's question, My wife is from rural Kansas, so a lever gun is very familiar to her, the AR not so much. When I am gone, I can leave her the Trapper and all is good. She loves to shoot my AR, but does not really want to invest the time to learn how to properly operate it. So in my situation, the lever gun works best.
I have no problem leaving her with a .357 rifle, she shoots it very well, and she is very comfortable with the platform. Happiness is bliss….
Back to the OP's question, My wife is from rural Kansas, so a lever gun is very familiar to her, the AR not so much. When I am gone, I can leave her the Trapper and all is good. She loves to shoot my AR, but does not really want to invest the time to learn how to properly operate it. So in my situation, the lever gun works best.
I have no problem leaving her with a .357 rifle, she shoots it very well, and she is very comfortable with the platform. Happiness is bliss….
76shuvlinoff
Member
Seriously? I don't think I'd giggle if looking into the barrel of the lever carbine.
I have both and this ^^
Both systems have potential failure modes. In a high stress adrenaline filled moment where the fine motor skills are likely in the toilet, I think the AR has the advantage. However, my wife just can't seem to warm up to semi auto anything and the 870 is too much for her. She likes her 4" SP101 and my Marlin .357 lever that is kept stoked with Leverevolution rounds. I don't mind staying away from home for work as much as I did before she had those options.
Good luck!
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After reading what the 5.56 can do like kill 250 lb deer at long range kill any human threat close or far from a 14.5" barrel I do not see the need for and other rifle or pistol calibers lol. Could you imagine walking into a gun shop in 1960 and hearing someone come in looking for a mule deer gun in 222 Rem (same thing).
OrangePwrx9
Member
If ballistics were equal, I'd go AR. Getting multiple shots off would be much easier and more reliable with the AR. My 1894 .357 is a bit prone to jamming if the lever isn't operated just right. The AR would be quicker to reload as well.
Peter M. Eick
Member
One point of order.
No one is bringing up the point of what happens after you stop something.
Lets face it, 357 mag carbine, 223 AR, 12 gauge pump or even a 22 short pistol can stop an adversary (2 or 4 feet) if used correctly and quickly. The probability of a 1 shot stop is higher with some of the early ones I listed but I think we can accept they will work.
BUT.
Think about the what next. How will your local/national TV present your case if you are using say the AR vs. a pump shotgun? How will the grand jury view it? How about the local prosecutor or police? Will they look at your tricked out AR and say he was out to do something bad or is he just an "Elmer with his shotgun".
Will you become the next "test case" blasted all over TV and the internet because you took out the "bad guy" with your tricked out AR or are you just some shmoe who blasted a rabid coyote or "bad guy" with your trusty 12 gauge pump duck gun?
Having watched the TV lately, and read the papers, look around and please contemplate the post shooting scenario for a bit and how that will go down in your area.
I know it convinced me that the AR would be a bad choice and even my 1943 M1 Carbine will be an issue which was my choice for years. I went back to the trusty Rem 870 that we used in the field for work. It is beat up, scratched, shows some rust from having been in a river, dings from getting in and out of choppers and trucks and is bordering on ugly. Inside though is it pristine and perfect. It always works.
Just consider it for a bit before you make the final decision. I think a 357 Carbine is just as acceptable a 12 gauge pump over an AR today. It is a very location specific concern that may or may not impact you.
No one is bringing up the point of what happens after you stop something.
Lets face it, 357 mag carbine, 223 AR, 12 gauge pump or even a 22 short pistol can stop an adversary (2 or 4 feet) if used correctly and quickly. The probability of a 1 shot stop is higher with some of the early ones I listed but I think we can accept they will work.
BUT.
Think about the what next. How will your local/national TV present your case if you are using say the AR vs. a pump shotgun? How will the grand jury view it? How about the local prosecutor or police? Will they look at your tricked out AR and say he was out to do something bad or is he just an "Elmer with his shotgun".
Will you become the next "test case" blasted all over TV and the internet because you took out the "bad guy" with your tricked out AR or are you just some shmoe who blasted a rabid coyote or "bad guy" with your trusty 12 gauge pump duck gun?
Having watched the TV lately, and read the papers, look around and please contemplate the post shooting scenario for a bit and how that will go down in your area.
I know it convinced me that the AR would be a bad choice and even my 1943 M1 Carbine will be an issue which was my choice for years. I went back to the trusty Rem 870 that we used in the field for work. It is beat up, scratched, shows some rust from having been in a river, dings from getting in and out of choppers and trucks and is bordering on ugly. Inside though is it pristine and perfect. It always works.
Just consider it for a bit before you make the final decision. I think a 357 Carbine is just as acceptable a 12 gauge pump over an AR today. It is a very location specific concern that may or may not impact you.
I would never base my choice for self defense on what the media thinks. That is just absurd. I will use whatever I can to defend my self and my family be it my AR, 375H&H or my bare hands.
I will worry about what comes next once I am safe. Then and only then will I give a single thought to what might be said. But I will leave that to my lawyer. And yes I would get a lawyer, just to be safe.
I will worry about what comes next once I am safe. Then and only then will I give a single thought to what might be said. But I will leave that to my lawyer. And yes I would get a lawyer, just to be safe.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Enough for now. I have no doubt whatsoever that this same sort of comparison will come up again. "As it has been, so will it ever be."
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