223 vs 357

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1800 feet per second with a 125 from an 8" revolver? Seriously?
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1800fps I would categorize as EXTREMELY optimistic

IMO for a 8" revolver 1400 to 1500 fps is a much more realistic figure. You gotta understand that Hodgdon for example lists their 357 mag velocity figures as being from a 10" ventless pressure bbl. In fact much of their handgun data is failing to meet their specs from my 18" marlin
 
You won't get 1800fps in reloading, only in commercial ammo. I think doubletap makes the hottest 125 grainers.
They claim:
Velocity: 1600fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
1425fps / 1 7/8" S&W
1750fps / 6"bbl S&W 686

I've seen guys on forums posting some really hot reloads in the ranges that BB and doubletap get but it was only for strong 92 actions and even in that I would be scared to go that far. DT and BB must be working with some powders we don't have available. I can attest from the 125g DT bullets I have, it is night and day compared to winchester white box. They are really too much to handle in my little revolver. The gun takes them fine. Primers look good, nothing sticks, but its a flamethrower and will hurt your hand if you don't have a great grip. I took them out of my revolver as home defense because I figured if my wife fired one the gun would probably hit her in the face or fly out of her hand.
 
Oic0 said:
You won't get 1800fps in reloading, only in commercial ammo. I think doubletap makes the hottest 125 grainers.
They claim:
Velocity: 1600fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
1425fps / 1 7/8" S&W
1750fps / 6"bbl S&W 686

I've seen guys on forums posting some really hot reloads in the ranges that BB and doubletap get but it was only for strong 92 actions and even in that I would be scared to go that far. DT and BB must be working with some powders we don't have available. I can attest from the 125g DT bullets I have, it is night and day compared to winchester white box. They are really too much to handle in my little revolver. The gun takes them fine. Primers look good, nothing sticks, but its a flamethrower and will hurt your hand if you don't have a great grip. I took them out of my revolver as home defense because I figured if my wife fired one the gun would probably hit her in the face or fly out of her hand.
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Really please share your chonograph results!

Steve Riccerdilli got 1505fps from a 4" S&W
http://stevespages.com/page8f357magnum.html

DT and BB must be working with some powders we don't have available.
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IMO this is pure marketing fantasy perpetuated for these boutique ammo manufacturers to throw everyone a red herring for their fanciful overstated velocities.

Us handloaders have no fewer than 20 different propellants of progressively slower burn rates suitable for such full powered 357 mag loads. Yet you expect me to believe double tap can buy a magic in between powder burnrate that allows them to exceed my loads by 300fps??????come on?? Don't you thing that if such a powder existed it's manufacturer would be marketing the crap out of it?

Bottom line is if these manufacturers are getting more velocity than me it's because they're running more pressure than I am.
 
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I have shot Arctic Caribou (smaller caribou weighing about 150 to 175 pounds at most) within 75 yards with both cartridges.
Sheengik, Coleen, and Black River drainage's.

I used a Mini 14 on a couple hunts with FMJ and soft point 5.56mm ammo. I was not impressed. Caribou are rather tough and can run a long ways with a fatal wound. When they do, their meat becomes tainted.

I then used a Rossi M92 levergun and Federal 125 grain hollow points on the other trips. The immediate effect of being struck with a 125 grain hollow point traveling over 2,000 fps from the 20 inch barrel was very evident. The only negative aspect of using the Rossi 357 lever-gun was that the exit wounds were huge. Like coffee can huge with jacketing fragments. So there was considerable meat wastage. I changed to 158 and 160 grain flat nosed soft points and still had much better results in a clean kill over the 5.56mm and the exit wounds shrank to about 2.5 inches with no shrapnel.
 
I know that DT loads are hot (I've fired some of their 10mm stuff, and it is easily hotter than major brand JHP defensive 10mm I was comparing it to). I did not chrono it.

However, I don't believe that anyone who is not buying powder by the rail-car full has a powder manufacturer doing special development just for them. Regardless of what they might say, I do not believe these botique loaders are using special super-secret powders that the rest of us cannot get.
 
I don't own a chrony and I can't find much on DT. A few people that have tested buffalo bore had the velocities match up though, and weight per weight BB and DT make about the same claims.
Here's one from one of the members here saying he chronied some of their 180 and 158 grainers.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3022345&postcount=40

180gr flat points, 5 shots 7 yards from muzzle.....(1860,1850,1855,1853,1855fps) whipping out the balistics software. Round has a B.C. of .185....take the Average 1854 that give a ME of 1369...doesnt cross the ME of handgun until it crosses the 175yd mark at 635ftlbs. Sight for 3" high at 100yds max PBR
(I.e 3" low) at 175yds.

Okay now for the 158gr Buffalo bore stuff. Again 5 shots 7 yards from muzzle....(2140,2143,2150,2139,2158)....average 2146. This round has a B.C. of .170....ME 1616,doesn't come down to the hangun ME until it also crosses 175 yrds. Sighted 3" high at 100yds, Max PBR 189 yrds (I.e 3" low)
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Here is a test in gunblast too, they got 1500 from a 5.5 inch barrel with one of the 180 grainers. http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm and as advertised from a carbine.

How can they do that if they are using the same powders as us?
 
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The .357 Mag carbines are also "merely" way more fun to shoot too, especially with a tang sight, trying to do 200 yards old school.

To the OP--

If you, like me, are really bored to tears by the attitude that the AR is great in almost every application, or you don't relish a very tedious cleaning regimen on an AR bolt, give the lever gun a try. If it doesn't work out for you, ARs are so common that you can use the lever for a sizable fraction of an entry level one's price.
 
ow can they do that if they are using the same powders as us?
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simple! they run higher pressures. Over the years 357 Magnum has had it's pressure rating lowered. Way back when 357 Magnum pressures were in the high 40K psi range. Over the years this has been lowered to the high 30K range to be more friendly to small framed revolvers so chambered. Dollars to doughnuts buffalo bore and DT are running pressures closer to the original 357 magnum specs

Hence buffalo bore's own warning
Please note that this ammunition is not intended for older guns. It is made for modern firearms only, as some of the ammunition could damage older and weaker firearms.
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Now if SAAMI 357 magnum is safe to fire in any firearm so chambered (which it is) why could you NOT use buffalo Bore in anything if it's loaded to the same pressure.

Buffalo Bore loads their ammunition up to maximum SAAMI specifications,
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This is like the 90% fat free on that bag of potato chips. Which SAAMI specifications??? The new ones at 35,000psi or the older firebreathing specs Elmer Keith helped develop that would launch 158grn bullets right at 1500fps from a 3" revolver

There is no free lunch! You want more velocity than what the most optimum propellant and bullet combo for a cartridge provides inside SAAMI pressures. Then you only have one place to go HIGHER PRESSURE

Now this isn't to say that Buffalo Bore ammo isn't indeed hot S&(# on a shingle! But I am disagreeing with the premise that it gets that way from a magic propellant.
 
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Both should be very fun and will tear up the bottles. I think the .223 will make them explode more because of the sheer velocity but might break up and not penetrate as many jugs as the heavier .357.
 
My .357 carbine pushes 1900 fps with a 165 grain SWC with 17 grains of Lil' Gun. that's plenty enough for hogs or deer to 100 yards. It puts 'em into 4" at that range. It has taken a deer at 80. Same gun, .38 special 105 SWC over 2.3 grains Bullseye gets 900 fps and 1.5" at 50 yard accuracy, becomes a squirrel gun. I like the .357 for that reason. Revolvers? This is the rifle forum, right?

.223 and .357 are pretty even concerning energy out of the muzzle of rifles, but of course the .223 has the BC edge and will distance the .357. The .357 carbine's effective range on game realistically is 100 yards maximum.
 
My .357 carbine pushes 1900 fps with a 165 grain SWC with 17 grains of Lil' Gun. that's plenty enough for hogs or deer to 100 yards. It puts 'em into 4" at that range.
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Care to hop over here and share what you're doing with lil gun that I may not be.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=502030
I still have a pound of this powder to burn and I can get nothing even resembling accuracy from it.
 
The new ones at 35,000psi or the older firebreathing specs Elmer Keith helped develop that would launch 158grn bullets right at 1500fps from a 3" revolver
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Shame they don't just come up with a +p rating for the cartridge, or I guess a -p since the newer rounds are weaker ;) You've got to admit 1500fps from an 8 inch test barrel is pretty weak though. Not that I think it would be bad for anti-human use, it would allow a second or third shot much easier from a small hand gun.
I've put the DT 125s through 3 guns so far and none of them had any issues. A fellow on another forum had sticky cases with the BB 158s, who knows if it was just that batch, just his gun, or a sign. That is the only complaint I have heard in .357 though.
 
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Care to hop over here and share what you're doing with lil gun that I may not be.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=502030
I still have a pound of this powder to burn and I can get nothing even resembling accuracy from it.
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Hell, mine shoots as good as with my 2400 loads. Maybe the gun? I read and posted on that thread, but I'm afraid I'm of little help. You might page Mr. GooseGhestapo. He's the one that was touting Lil' Gun, why I picked up a pound. He was saying he was pushing a 158JHP to over 2000 fps with 17.5 grains.

I finally got 100 new .357 cases to load rifle only loads in for the Lil' Gun loads, haven't got around to it, yet. My 2400 loads are 14.5 grains and push about 100 fps less at around 1800 fps which, really, is good enough I reckon, was just impressed with the Lil' Gun's extra zap at less apparent pressure. I've heard the stuff is hard on forcing cones and for gas cutting. It burns slower. I'll stick to the carbine with it.
 
thanks

Thanks guys, some good posts and interesting info
it was just a casual mode question though
I don't Grizz hunt with either round, and I don't do rifles for "home defense" either
I just like to shoot

I have a pair of 357 lever actions, and do enjoy 'em a lot
I don't have a 223... yet... thin wallet fever
(but drooling over a Ruger Hawkeye 223 bolt carbine "just because")
couple of my buddies do have ARs (dunno know what make/model, but they are black and 223 caliber)
and I have shot 'em (guns, not buddies), but bolt guns are just more "me"
going to save up some jugs and invite my buddies to the range for a "splash" day


browningguy
"the rifle will always win out"
yes, it will

Art Eatman
"if self-defense is of concern, and some distance around fifty yards is the reasonable outer limit to be considered defense"
Agree, I think 50 yards is pretty excessive to even be considered "defense", myself
(until Martian Zombie invasions become more prevalent, I am sticking with 38+P k-frames for personal matters, and 380acp for casual wear)

Oic0
"I think some people here are greatly greatly underestimating the .357"
I think so, too

BartRoberts
thanks, some great jello pictures there, interesting and educational

greyling22
yep, you got it
a guy just gets tired of just punching paper every now and then
my buddies have some ARs, thought it might be entertaining to check 'em out vs my 357 carbines

krochus
yep, you got it, too
alas, they get a tad peevish if we shoot up the really fun stuff at our local range
(but they do leave us a junker car out there, every now and then, for LEO trainees to shoot up, we help 'em out al we can with that)

Float Pilot
jello is fun and entertaining, but caribou is what I call "been there, done that"
and there are guys on other forums who say much the same for modest range whitetails (although I favor a 30-30 or 243 carbine for that sort of thing myself)

Boats (#33)
yeah, mea cuplea, it do get mighty tiresome
got nothing against ARs, just don't much believe in magic of any flavor
(already own two 357 lever actions, Marlin 1894 and Rossi/LSI '92)

MCgunner
"This is the rifle forum, right?"
well I thunk so, too... ain't got no 8" carbines nor snubbie carbines myself
(and agree, shooting 38s and 357s out of same gun do add bonus fun factor)

C-grunt
"What does a standard .38 do out of a rifle?"
about 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards, vs. about 1" at 50 yards w/ 357 and about 1" higher POI, 5-shot groups
357 must go downrange a little quicker, heckifiknow ;)

ya'll shoot well, be well, and be safe
 
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This has been a great thread. Thank you all.

I'm wondering what .38s do velocity-wise out of a carbine. The info I can find seems to indicate maybe about an extra 150 fps or so for +P, and little to no gain with standard practice ammo. Maybe even a loss with jacketed.


Is this about right? I don't have access to a chronograph...
 
BartRoberts
thanks, some great jello pictures there, interesting and educational
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I'm looking at these on the Hornady site and see no information (barrel length, velocity, twist...) for the .357 magnum. Was it shot from a 18 or 20 inch barrel, or a handgun?? All that info is posted for the .223. Not sure this is a good comparison without knowing how the mags were deposited into the jello.

Maybe I missed something?


Here's an interesting link to some .357mag carbine shots into lime jello. :)
http://www.diyballistics.com/.357 Mag Carbine Tests.html


Couple months back I had many pumpkins needing to be aired out. Took them to the range with my AK and my Marlin1894c. At 25 to 50 yards the 7.62x39's went thru the targets with small inny and outty holes. They were BrownBear 123gr. FMJ and HP. The .357's made slightly bigger inny holes, but the exits were very large and spectacular. Chunks were flying all over the place. They were Speer 158gr SP's over 14.5gr of Alliant 2400. Wish I had had some soft point x39 on hand to see their performance, but didn't.
 
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tubeshooter said:
This has been a great thread. Thank you all.

I'm wondering what .38s do velocity-wise out of a carbine. The info I can find seems to indicate maybe about an extra 150 fps or so for +P, and little to no gain with standard practice ammo. Maybe even a loss with jacketed.


Is this about right? I don't have access to a chronograph...
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tubeshooter, fair question

not meaning to pretend I would actually know (nor meaning to bump this thread up "just because")
but it's not the sort of thing you are likely to see a whole lot of studies on...
I don't do chrony either , but as far as casual observation goes (???)
I think you pretty much got it nailed

I don't see any difference on how it (38sp) hits/drops at 50 yards or 100 yards, whether it's an 18" carbine or a 6" revolver, generic factory 38sp loads, but the whitebox 38s are a whole lot cheaper than 357 JHPs/JSPs, recoil (?) is 22 rimfire class, and there never was anything real wrong with stretching the fun factor on range day, a few more bangs for your buck

never took one tree rat hunting, but I am pretty sure they will kill 'em pretty dead, hit most anywhere (no expansion required)... but I wouldn't count on 'em for "scenarios", just fun stuff or small game, nothing so worrisome that 38sp out of a snubbie couldn't take care of up close

but I am still going to have to get me a 223, if things ever loosen up..
(me, only kid on my block that don't have one yet)
 
I'm looking at these on the Hornady site and see no information (barrel length, velocity, twist...) for the .357 magnum. Was it shot from a 18 or 20 inch barrel, or a handgun?? All that info is posted for the .223. Not sure this is a good comparison without knowing how the mags were deposited into the jello.
Click to expand...

You have to go over to the civilian side to find out that the muzzle velocity for the 125gr was 1,500fps from an 8" barrel.

The DIYBallistics site is interesting; but given the penetration depths, it is pretty obvious that they are using a much denser medium than ballistics gel. That makes it tough to compare (and also affects expansion strangely).
 
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