5.56/.223 vs .357 Magnum Carbine?

[LouisianaGunner12]

Bullet design plays a big part, as do barrel lengths. I have seen humans hit my military 5.56mm rounds from 20 inch barrels and 14.5 inch barrels. While it does work well, the full ball ammo's wound cavity ( M855) from the shorter barrel is less than dramatic 100% of the time.

The AR15 would likely be a 16 inch barreled variant loaded up with Hornady V-MAX .223

The .357 carbine would likely be a Marlin 1894c loaded with Speer Gold Dot 125 grain

 

[rcmodel]

It's a toss up. Muzzle energy is very close.

No it isn't.

The .223 has about three times the muzzle energy of the .357 Magnum.

And also more then twice the muzzle velocity of even the fastest .357 loads.

Velocity = Explosive bullet fragmentation = a Massive wound channel, DRT stops, and way less chance of over-penetration harming incentive bystanders.

As an aside, you sure don't see SWAT Teams using .357 Carbines for entry arms now do you?

If the .357 Magnum was in any way superior to, or even close to the .223 for use inside a building?
That's what they would all be using.

But none of them are, or do.

Rc

 

[itsa pain]

No it isn't.

The .223 has about three times the muzzle energy of the .357 Magnum.

And also more then twice the muzzle velocity of even the fastest .357 loads.

Velocity = Explosive bullet fragmentation = a Massive wound channel, DRT stops, and way less chance of over-penetration harming incentive bystanders.

As an aside, you sure don't see SWAT Teams using .357 Carbines for entry arms now do you?

If the .357 Magnum was in any way superior to, or even close to the .223 for use inside a building?
That's what they would all be using.

But none of them are, or do.

Rc

Why do SWAT entry teams even exist? Who are they at war with? They have used them for delinquent college loan payments. So I guess the 357 is no good for people who are late on loan payments. Swat teams need more effective weapons

 

[itsa pain]

No. Fast moving light bullets pose far less risk of over penetration than do slow heavy bullets. Here's just one of many comparison tests: http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html.

Well, sure if we're talking defense from brown bears or bison where very deep penetration is needed slow and heavy (or better yet fast and heavy) is a great idea. But for HD / SD where moderate penetration and great expansion / fragmentation are ideal then a lighter bullet at very high velocities is a better choice.

I think it's pretty clear that from a ballistics standpoint I'm in the 5.56 NATO / .223 Rem camp. I also prefer the round for HD / SD because it has a very low recoil and offers very quick follow up shots if necessary. It is loud though, so a linear compensator that directs the blast forward and away from the shooter is a good idea.

First the 5.56 is so much better choice then the 357 but then the 357 penetrates a lot deeper with a bigger heavier bullet to make it dangerous to use. The way physics and the english language has been twisted for 50 years to build up the 5.56 will never be equaled in firearms history. The day the army changes their rifle and the round it shoots the AR's will end up in barrels selling for 100 dollars and the 5.56 will be put back into the varmint class

 

[Jason248]

Have you thought of doing an ar15 300 blackout build? You then get a round designed for CQC and if you build a pistol it's very compact. This is actually one of my next on the list for builds.

 

[Ar180shooter]

I would go .357 mag. 5.56 is so fast that it will over penetrate and cause damage if not death where it's not intended. .357 may do the same but those bullets are designed for the purpose more so than any 5.56 ammo. 7-10 shots is likely 6-9 more than you need so the ar would be WAY overkill. For defensive purposes terminal ballistics scream big and slow is the way to go.

The light, high velocity bullets break apart and are stopped by lighter cover than slow, heavy rounds.

 

[Armored farmer]

I have rifles in both calibers. Id go with the 5.56. Power is obvious, and although you dont want to get into it, the platform is important, as the AR's offer so many more options.

^^^^me too. Although I love my Marlin.357 rifle/ .357mag revolver combo...I gotta go with the AR. It is too useful and versatile to deny, even though I am a cowboy at heart.

 

[Jason248]

The light, high velocity bullets break apart and are stopped by lighter cover than slow, heavy rounds.

Also if a ballistic tip .223 was used it would be devastating and if out of a 7-10 inch pistol build barrel the velocity would be less allowing in earlier expansion.

 

[rcmodel]

Actually the reverse is true.

Velocity out of a .223 pistol barrel will be going much slower, it will not expand as explosively, and the bullet will stay together and penetrate further.

That's the exact problem the Military is having with the 14.4" barrel M4 Carbines.
Not enough velocity to do what the 5.56/.223 does best.

rc

 

[Jason248]

Actually the reverse is true.

Velocity out of a .223 pistol barrel will be going much slower, it will not expand as explosively, and the bullet will stay together and penetrate further.

That's the exact problem the Military is having with the 14.4" barrel M4 Carbines.
Not enough velocity to do what the 5.56/.223 does best.

rc

For some reason I though the lower velocity with a ballistic round would help this at close range because in a house the close range would be roughly 7-10 feet. Velocity should still be around 2500+ feet per second right?

 

[C-grunt]

AR for sure. My department uses 55 grn Federal Tactical (hollow point) and it's been dropping bad guys like lightning.

 

[CoalTrain49]

The .223 has about three times the muzzle energy of the .357 Magnum.

Correct. I was looking at some bad data on a spreadsheet.

Either one will work for the OP's intended use. A 357 probably would be a better cartridge because of the versatility. You can't hunt deer with a 22 anything in some states and I don't believe anyone makes a 223 revolver.

 

[grter]

Which round has better terminal performance? Which "one is more likely to stop the threat, assuming both are high quality hollow points or ballistic tip?

Over-penetration is not a concern for me."

Very simple question simple answer 5.56 out of a rifle barrel will wreak havock on any human being due to it's huge muzzle velocity, energy, and the effects of cavitation (remember the post about the other half of the rabbit all over the lawn) that is present in high velocity rounds shot out of rifles.

Cavitation does not occur with most rounds fired out of pistols or even with pistol rounds fired out of rifles at higher velocities than pistols but still relatively slow compared to average rifle rounds.

Yes the small 5.56 fragments and deflects easy when it hits cover but don't count on it. These small high velocity bullets travel quite far and I would not bet on thin sheet rock slowing it down or fragmenting it.

You did say that overpenetration is not an issue though.

A .357 even out of a pistol would do just fine despite the above for defense inside the home unless you have a lot of property around your house and anticipate having to defend the perimeter of your house from large distances (100 to 300 yards or even more) then you want a rifle.

 

[19-3Ben]

If the .357 Magnum was in any way superior to, or even close to the .223 for use inside a building?
That's what they would all be using.

True. But we also have to ask ourselves if that has to do with the platforms, or the caliber?
The OP is only asking about the efficacy of the calibers here, and not asking about platform.

 

[Float Pilot]

You guys need to stop comparing 357 magnum pistol velocities to 223 rifle velocities:

From my 375 magnum chambered, 20 inch barrel, model 92 clone, a 125 grain Sierra Hollow Cavity can be pushed at 2,350 fps. That develops 1,533 foot pounds of muzzle energy.

My wife's little 16 inch barreled AR in 5.56mm, pushes a 52 grain Sierra hollow point at 2,950 fps.
That load produces 1,005 foot pounds of muzzle energy.

My 16 inch trapper chambered in 357 mag, will only push the 125 grain load to 2,175 fps.
It develops 1,313 foot pounds of mathematical muzzle energy.

Even if I load up my 20 inch heavy barreled 5.56mm AR to 3,000 fps using a 60 grain Sierra HP ( a good coyote load for winter) , I still only end up with 1,200 foot pounds of muzzle energy.
About the same energy as a 357 caliber 158gr Speer jacketed soft point, being pushed at 1,800 fps from my model 92 clone.

Out at 100 or 150 yards they swap due to the poor ballistic coefficient of the 357 bullets. But that does not matter at 15 feet inside your house. Or even 50 yards .

 

[rcmodel]

From my 375 magnum chambered, 20 inch barrel, model 92 clone, a 125 grain Sierra Hollow Cavity can be pushed at 2,350 fps. That develops 1,533 foot pounds of muzzle energy.

Bet you can't buy them little hummers at Walmart though do you?

rc

 

[Bexar]

A .223 hollow point is gonna turn into a small grenade at HD distances and even the common as protons M193 will kick butt in a pinch and hydrostatic shock will effect nerves and organs a .357 solid slug (even hollow point) will just have a pass by effect. Plus...most home invaders have got buddies with them so group therapy with fast follow up shots out of an AR-15 platform if you choose can be important. Hope this remains an academic question for you only.

 

[blackhawk44]

At "inside the house" distances, a good shotgun with #6 birdshot would be as devastating as anything.

 

[Deog]

a 357 lever gun is in high demand and hard to find now days. a 44 mag 1894 is a bit easier to find and my choice of medicine, jm stamped of course. as well have a 5.56 m and p 15 and like it very much as well

 

[Float Pilot]

Bet you can't buy them little hummers at Walmart though do you?

Actually the old Federal 125 grain JHP full mag load (375B that used to be police dept issue) will do the same velocity. So will Buffalo Bore ammo. If you need to shoot factory ammo.

I bought my first Rossi 357 mag carbine at an Alaska Commercial Company store in Fort Yukon for $115. Five years ago I bought a 16 inch version at a pawn shop for $150.

While I prefer a 44 magnum in a model 92 style action, the 357s do let you shoot 38 specials.

 

[C-grunt]

At "inside the house" distances, a good shotgun with #6 birdshot would be as devastating as anything.

Having seen this personally.... no it isnt.

 

[HisStigness]

Most studies (if not all), including ones that the FBI conducted, found that standard pistol rounds have big issues with overpenetration. They found that 9mm fired from an mp5 (definitely a bit slower than 357) could pass through multiple interior walls before coming to a stop. The .223, although often being referred to as inadequate, delivers a lot more hydrostatic shock in a short period of time, without the overpenetration issues (if the right ammo is used).

 

[HisStigness]

Having seen this personally.... no it isnt.

Tell us more.

 

[LouisianaGunner12]

You guys need to stop comparing 357 magnum pistol velocities to 223 rifle velocities:

From my 375 magnum chambered, 20 inch barrel, model 92 clone, a 125 grain Sierra Hollow Cavity can be pushed at 2,350 fps. That develops 1,533 foot pounds of muzzle energy.

My wife's little 16 inch barreled AR in 5.56mm, pushes a 52 grain Sierra hollow point at 2,950 fps.
That load produces 1,005 foot pounds of muzzle energy.

My 16 inch trapper chambered in 357 mag, will only push the 125 grain load to 2,175 fps.
It develops 1,313 foot pounds of mathematical muzzle energy.

Even if I load up my 20 inch heavy barreled 5.56mm AR to 3,000 fps using a 60 grain Sierra HP ( a good coyote load for winter) , I still only end up with 1,200 foot pounds of muzzle energy.
About the same energy as a 357 caliber 158gr Speer jacketed soft point, being pushed at 1,800 fps from my model 92 clone.

Out at 100 or 150 yards they swap due to the poor ballistic coefficient of the 357 bullets. But that does not matter at 15 feet inside your house. Or even 50 yards .

Alright, this is the type of information I was looking for. So, FloatPilot, would you say a high performance .223 out of a rifle is not as good at stopping a threat as a high performance .357 magnum out of a rifle?

Is there more to it than just foot pounds?

 

[LouisianaGunner12]

I was also toying with the idea of a mini-30 for home defense, perhaps loaded up with Hornady V-MAX 7.62x39. I wonder how that stacks up to .223 and .357 in terms of stopping power.