Now we're talkin'...
5.56/.223 vs .357 Magnum Carbine?
- Thread starter LouisianaGunner12
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hardluk1
member
Any of the 3 your looking at will do the job equality as well. You need to decide the rifle your AND anyone else that might be at home are the most comfortable with and then the one you can get the ammo for the easiest. You can shoot 38sp in the 357 lever gun. Its also the thinnest and the best balanced and the lightest of the 3 at least the marlin 94 is .
357 carbine info-http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/05/chris-dumm/lever-action-ballistics-30-30-vs-357-magnum/
357 carbine info-http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/05/chris-dumm/lever-action-ballistics-30-30-vs-357-magnum/
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CoalTrain49
Member
Good information.
I've always been a fan of the 357. I had my first one about 40 years ago and had at least one ever since. I have 2 right now. The utility of the cartridge is undeniable. Works well in revolvers and rifles. It can be loaded with a wide range bullets for just about any short range application. If someone would build a self loading carbine using a rimless 357 and a 10 rd. mag it would sell like toilet paper.
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ssyoumans
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I'd like to know where the OP is going to find that Marlin 357? I haven't seen one in a gun store or show in 5 years. I suppose there is always gunbroker 
Which is more effective, kind of like asking which car, a civic or a mustang is more effective at squashing road kill on the road. They both will do it just fine.
Which is more effective, kind of like asking which car, a civic or a mustang is more effective at squashing road kill on the road. They both will do it just fine.
Nickb45
Member
The .223 with 50grain vmax bullets doing 3200fps out of a 20" barrel are pretty impressive on small critters. Like said above there isn't an exit hole, it's half of the critter missing, or pieces usually found about 3 feet apart from each other. That inside a human body would make a mess of organs.
I like the 300blk/whisper (on paper) for close work, similar ballistics to a 45acp when slowed down to subsonic (think suppressor) and shot out of a 10" barrel. An AR pistol or SBR is smaller, more maneuverable in close quarters. The short barrel & suppressor combo is still short enough to not be awkward or too long. I know it wasn't a platform discussion but just throwing it out there as something you might have overlooked. My long AR and lever guns stay in the safe.
I like the 300blk/whisper (on paper) for close work, similar ballistics to a 45acp when slowed down to subsonic (think suppressor) and shot out of a 10" barrel. An AR pistol or SBR is smaller, more maneuverable in close quarters. The short barrel & suppressor combo is still short enough to not be awkward or too long. I know it wasn't a platform discussion but just throwing it out there as something you might have overlooked. My long AR and lever guns stay in the safe.
In what part of the US are all these people being shot by your department so I can avoid it
Jason_W
Member
I know from experience that out of a .357 mag carbine, you can get 125 grain factory load to break 2,000 f/s. Over the extremely short haul (across a room, for example), it's unlikely any bad guy would be able to tell the difference between getting hit with a 125 grain pill going 2000 f/s or a 55 grain pill going 3000 f/s.
Obviously, due to the low BC of the pistol bullet, it's going to shed velocity in a hurry, making the .223/5.56 a superior choice for longer range.
If the discussion is limited only to inside the home defensive situations, terminal performance is effectively a wash. More important considerations are:
1. What's legal where you live.
2. what will you enjoy shooting more
2. Magazine capacity/rate of fire (an AR will beat any lever gun in this category)
3. Platform availability. Marlin .357s are now unicorns and highly expensive and the Rossis get mixed reviews. At this point, a new AR could be had for less money than a used 1894c.
Obviously, due to the low BC of the pistol bullet, it's going to shed velocity in a hurry, making the .223/5.56 a superior choice for longer range.
If the discussion is limited only to inside the home defensive situations, terminal performance is effectively a wash. More important considerations are:
1. What's legal where you live.
2. what will you enjoy shooting more
2. Magazine capacity/rate of fire (an AR will beat any lever gun in this category)
3. Platform availability. Marlin .357s are now unicorns and highly expensive and the Rossis get mixed reviews. At this point, a new AR could be had for less money than a used 1894c.
DaisyCutter
Member
Bullet for bullet, in a rifle, at across the room range, I'd take a .357 handload over a .223 every time. Muzzle energy is closer than most people would think, and the heavier .357 will more likely punch through ribs and such without fragmenting and losing energy.
A .223 is a varmint cartridge, ideal for coyotes. Hunters will use a .357 carbine for 250 lb mule deer, but generally not a .223.
My beat partner shot a vicious pitbull as it killed a German Shepherd. Shot it once, point blank through the ribs, with a M-16 DoD rifle. The pressure swoll the dog up. It sat down, then laid down, then died in agony several long seconds later.
Click at own risk:
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL639/2678265/21047685/396910201.jpg
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL639/2678265/21047685/396910163.jpg
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL639/2678265/21047685/396910225.jpg
We luckily had the pitbull near the only brick backstop in the barrio, and there was an elementary school a block away. We decided we couldn't let it trot off because a shot elsewhere would be too risky.
The .223, in my opinion, and experience, is way overrated for bigger than varmint critters. The AR beats the lever rifle .357 for home defense ONLY because it's got a profoundly higher rate of fire if needed... And it'll probably be needed.
I'd choose the AR over the lever for the ability to get off a second shot before the intruder gets hands-on with me and my rifle.
As far as dropping a living 150-250 lb creature at defense range, the .357 is far superior to the .223 in my opinion. YMMV
A .223 is a varmint cartridge, ideal for coyotes. Hunters will use a .357 carbine for 250 lb mule deer, but generally not a .223.
My beat partner shot a vicious pitbull as it killed a German Shepherd. Shot it once, point blank through the ribs, with a M-16 DoD rifle. The pressure swoll the dog up. It sat down, then laid down, then died in agony several long seconds later.
Click at own risk:
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL639/2678265/21047685/396910201.jpg
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL639/2678265/21047685/396910163.jpg
http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL639/2678265/21047685/396910225.jpg
We luckily had the pitbull near the only brick backstop in the barrio, and there was an elementary school a block away. We decided we couldn't let it trot off because a shot elsewhere would be too risky.
The .223, in my opinion, and experience, is way overrated for bigger than varmint critters. The AR beats the lever rifle .357 for home defense ONLY because it's got a profoundly higher rate of fire if needed... And it'll probably be needed.
I'd choose the AR over the lever for the ability to get off a second shot before the intruder gets hands-on with me and my rifle.
As far as dropping a living 150-250 lb creature at defense range, the .357 is far superior to the .223 in my opinion. YMMV
Float Pilot
Member
Almost anything will go through house walls.
While on duty in my old life one night....I had a 230 grain Black Talon (think of a black Golden Saber HP) round from my 1911 go through half inch interior sheet rock, then 6 inches of fiberglass insulation, clipped a 2x6 wall stud and then went through 1/2 inch OSB and then another 1/2 inch of T-111 house siding.... Before the darn thing went cruising down the middle of a street. We never did find the bullet. I was very nervous for the next week.
Daisy Cutter: Was it a case of just crazy pitbull or was rabies suspected? When I worked remote bush villages the rabies problem required a lot of bleach after a dog zapping. I was wondering who was stuck cleaning up the mess in your photos.
While on duty in my old life one night....I had a 230 grain Black Talon (think of a black Golden Saber HP) round from my 1911 go through half inch interior sheet rock, then 6 inches of fiberglass insulation, clipped a 2x6 wall stud and then went through 1/2 inch OSB and then another 1/2 inch of T-111 house siding.... Before the darn thing went cruising down the middle of a street. We never did find the bullet. I was very nervous for the next week.
Daisy Cutter: Was it a case of just crazy pitbull or was rabies suspected? When I worked remote bush villages the rabies problem required a lot of bleach after a dog zapping. I was wondering who was stuck cleaning up the mess in your photos.
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sauer1911
Member
Living so close to a grammar and middle school, there are severe penalties if your guns are not "controlled" or in a safe.
My mod 66 .357 is only 6 shots, and my M&P15's are to cumbersome for home defense.
I have 2 bio lockboxes at each end of the house, each with a .40cal pistol with golden saber hollow points. I pray I never have to use them, but we drill and shoot IDPA.
What ever you use for home defense, please become as good with it as you can, to be as safe as you can.
be safe.
My mod 66 .357 is only 6 shots, and my M&P15's are to cumbersome for home defense.
I have 2 bio lockboxes at each end of the house, each with a .40cal pistol with golden saber hollow points. I pray I never have to use them, but we drill and shoot IDPA.
What ever you use for home defense, please become as good with it as you can, to be as safe as you can.
be safe.
The terminal performance of a heavier (55-64g) bonded or 77g OTM 5.56 is more "optimal" IMO for a HD scenario. It had solid penetration in tissue w/o over-penetration. It fragments easily when it hits solid surfaces like drywall, studs etc. The varmint loads are too fragile for good performance in humans.
The .357 carbine with a good bullet is a solid performer, not a lot of terminal performance data available on how those bullets do at ~2000 fps in tissue though. It would penetrate more in a structure, the 125g+ bullet has a lot more mass and is more solidly constructed and moving slower so as not to come apart as easy.
Combine all the ergonomics and firepower of the AR platform with solid and proven terminal effectiveness with the heavier bonded or 75-77g OTM loads, along with the least over-penetration in structures of all the viable choices, my vote is for the AR.
An AR with a red dot sight, light and sling is the ideal HD weapon for most scenarios IMHO.
The .357 carbine with a good bullet is a solid performer, not a lot of terminal performance data available on how those bullets do at ~2000 fps in tissue though. It would penetrate more in a structure, the 125g+ bullet has a lot more mass and is more solidly constructed and moving slower so as not to come apart as easy.
Combine all the ergonomics and firepower of the AR platform with solid and proven terminal effectiveness with the heavier bonded or 75-77g OTM loads, along with the least over-penetration in structures of all the viable choices, my vote is for the AR.
An AR with a red dot sight, light and sling is the ideal HD weapon for most scenarios IMHO.
DaisyCutter
Member
The pitbull and GSD were intact male ghetto dogs. They fought, up and down the street. Alpha males fight, it's not abnormal. Most fights are resolved with the loser being able to slink off. It IS abnormal in the animal world to KILL over territory, food or a mate... It's supposed to be an exhibition fight. Given the scene, we weren't letting the pitbull go back "at large". Pitbulls behavior was abnormal and clearly violent. We called animal control and waited. The pitbull was exhausted after the fight. We waited, he panted. He tried to trot off before the dog catcher got on scene. Partner walked up and executed a shot to the center mass of the pit. No exit wound. Definitely a mortal hit, but NOT a *bang-flop*.
From a liability perspective, had we let that dog trot off and it eats someone... The department gets sued. Anyone looking at that street woulda said we shoulda known better than to allow the dog to leave.
I don't know whether it had rabies. Nobody was bitten. There was no motivation to test the dog after he was dispatched.
Fire Dept came and hosed off the whole street. Not exactly perfect, but acceptable given the area.
I'm a dog lover, I love most dogs more than most humans, but when it comes to life & death I'll chose the human first every time.
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Panzerschwein
member
5.56mm.
.357 mag is okay, but you just can't combare the devastating wound cavity and hypersonic pressure shock of the 3000 fps+ 5.56 round.
Leave the antiquated toy cowboy gun on the shelf and get a REAL fightin' rifle, the AR-15.
.357 mag is okay, but you just can't combare the devastating wound cavity and hypersonic pressure shock of the 3000 fps+ 5.56 round.
Leave the antiquated toy cowboy gun on the shelf and get a REAL fightin' rifle, the AR-15.
Float Pilot
Member
Hypersonic speeds start at 5,600 fps and above. (Mach 5)
The 5.56mm is a good round for what it was intended, ( a compromise )
But it is not a nuclear blaster.
C-grunt
Member
Angry dogs are some tough SOBs. A couple guys on my squad were attacked by a 90lb pittbull a year or so ago on a dog attack call. They both shot it. One round went straight into its mouth and came out the back of its neck. The other went through the chest broadside. The mouth shot was a 45 230 grn HST and the broadside was a 40 180 grn HST. After being shot twice that dog sat down and walked back into its yard. Animal control came out and caught the thing where it was later put down at the pound.
I have always had good luck with .223/5.56. In Iraq it worked well whether it was 62 grn green tip or the M262 out of my DMR. Here at home we use a good 55 grn hollow point (that clocks right about 3000 FPS out of our 16 inch barrels) and that thing is absolutely devastating. A head shot is definitely a closed casket funeral.
As far as birdshot goes I have not been impressed. Ive been on multiple shootings involving birdshot and most of the time it involves superficial wounds. We even had a drug hit back a few years ago where three guys were executed by a shotgun using birdshot. One died on scene, one died later at the hospital and I think one actually survived. It just doesn't have the penetration most of the time. That's not to say its never been effective because sometimes it is. However in my experience more times than not its performance would be subpar.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I think a good .357 JHP out of a rifle and a good .223 defensive load are close enough that the important question is probably not ballistics; but which rifle do you manipulate and shoot better?
If I were to choose it would be the AR, but not because of the round but because of the platform. Semi-auto, fast to get it loaded (detachable box) as I'd never leave a long arm loaded in my home due to safety (loaded pistols are in quick-access safes).
In equivalent platforms, I would take a wide slower bullet over anything .223 any day of the week. There is a reason .357 is legal to hunt deer...a human-sized game...in many states, and .223 rarely is.
If I were to set up an AR specifically for home defense it would be with an upper of alternative (and larger) caliber.
As for the mention of birdshot...never. My wife used to work as an inner city ER nurse and attended to no less than 3 suicide attempts where they put a 12 gauge under their chin and pulled the trigger. In each case (not to say a few successful attempts didn't also come through) the shot and wad went up in, hit the hard palate above the mouth, deflected forward, and blew their face off. They all lived, at least through the initial injury, with a grotesque prognosis. #4 buck or bigger.
In equivalent platforms, I would take a wide slower bullet over anything .223 any day of the week. There is a reason .357 is legal to hunt deer...a human-sized game...in many states, and .223 rarely is.
If I were to set up an AR specifically for home defense it would be with an upper of alternative (and larger) caliber.
As for the mention of birdshot...never. My wife used to work as an inner city ER nurse and attended to no less than 3 suicide attempts where they put a 12 gauge under their chin and pulled the trigger. In each case (not to say a few successful attempts didn't also come through) the shot and wad went up in, hit the hard palate above the mouth, deflected forward, and blew their face off. They all lived, at least through the initial injury, with a grotesque prognosis. #4 buck or bigger.
HighExpert
Member
Dead is dead. I have dropped 150 lb deer with one shot out of my .357 lever and I do use hot handloads with the 125gr JHP. I haven't, due to laws to the contrary, used my Mini 14 on deer but I am sure they would also do the job. I also have a .44 mag in the lever action Marlin and can tell you that neither has any recoil to talk about. I shoot 180 gr JHP at about 2100fps out of the .44. I do think the Mini is louder than either of the carbines. Might be a consideration inside.
justice06rr
Member
I will throw in my 2cents and say that any firearm shot inside a home will be loud, whether its a 12ga shotgun, 5.56 carbine, 357lever gun, AK47, 45ACP pistol, etc. (Unless you own a suppressor of course)
Sound is the last thing you should worry about when considering a caliber/firearm for HD/SD. Pick an appropriate caliber for your purpose and then the platform you wish to use. I don't mind using a Mosin M44 for HD even if its super loud if I know it will be effective at stopping the BG. And yes I have a loaded M44 in my closet as a last resort...
Back on topic, I recommend the 223/5.56 AR for HD. It is the platform I use in my HD plan along with a 5.45AK. I used to have a 12ga Mossberg 500 for HD, but it was heavy, too slow follow up shots, has a stout recoil, and limited capacity so I switched to a semiauto light-recoiling and lightweight rifle. Its still a good HD weapon, but it was not for me.
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dprice3844444
member
it all depends if you just talking inside the house or if your including any area outside.basic advantage over the 223 in an ar,is instant next round readiness . 1 pull of trigger,next round is chambered.no racking the lever. ar can be shot 1 handed in you lose function of 1 appendage. ar can be hung around a corner and shot numerous times,lever has to be manually cycled,and stuck out there.reloading an ar mag is quicker.more ammo available in ar-15.cheap lever action is easier to give up to cops during the investigation,compared to ar.
best inside house home defense weapon.12 gauge pump.after you rack 1 home,if they have any common sense,they are running like hell.every body knows after that racking sound,major trauma will ensue.if they decide to hang around after that,they are stupid.
best inside house home defense weapon.12 gauge pump.after you rack 1 home,if they have any common sense,they are running like hell.every body knows after that racking sound,major trauma will ensue.if they decide to hang around after that,they are stupid.
CoalTrain49
Member
And there's your answer. Not fit for a medium game.
The military has different requirements than a home owner.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Full-power .357 out of a 16"-18" barrel is probably about the same loudness as a .223 out of the same length barrel, as long as you are not using a brake on either carbine.
I don't have data on .357 out of a rifle length barrel, but I do have data for .30-30, which is the same bore diameter but a little faster than .357 with the same weight bullets. A .30-30 out of a 20" barrel is slightly louder than a .223 out of an 18.5" barrel. Both are in the same ballpark as 9mm from a pistol-length barrel (though there may be some differences in duration and spectrum), and both are far less loud than a .357 revolver.
http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml
Keep in mind that putting a brake on those guns would drastically increase the loudness, though.
This has gone from which is a better round discussion with some good info to what seems like a favorite pastime for many here and that is shooting dogs. To me if you kill a dog that is not ready to clamp on your leg, you aint human. I am on hunting and shooting forums where you are not allowed to talk about shooting feral dogs cats or other domestic animals
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