5.56x45 or 7.62x39?

[JB111]

Imported by century is fine, MADE by century is no go. The wasr is a good bargain gun, made by cugir, imported by century. Zastava makes good product. I like their current production offerings better than the older ones, mainly because they import their own stuff now so the qc is better and their older guns don't have CL barrels. WBP is also good, FB Radom is even better if you can find one. If you want a milled receiver that is new production, Arsenal is the way to go. They had issues with their 5.56 sam, but the Sam7's are top of the line. I will always choose import over domestic when it comes to ak, but as far as us made options, psa is the only decent option.

 

[WrongHanded]

Let's move the AK talk over here: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/so-i-am-going-to-buy-an-ak.917446/

We may still have a few people wishing to discuss the OP question.

 

[Ignition Override]

As mentioned several times here, the VZ-58 clearly is Not an AKM, nor is it a derivative.

And VZ mags do Not interchange with AK mags (but so what?): —Nothing is shared except for ammunition—. Should a Glock mag work in a S&W handgun…? Maybe a light is shining—-

What impresses me is that true Czech VZ-58 quality is surprisingly, consistently excellent . Mine is a Czechpoint Sporter with 3,300 rounds consumed.

 

[BreechFace]

As mentioned several times here, the VZ-58 clearly is Not an AKM, nor is it a derivative.

And VZ mags do Not interchange with AK mags (but so what?): —Nothing is shared except for ammunition—. Should a Glock mag work in a S&W handgun…? Maybe a light is shining—-

What impresses me is that true Czech VZ-58 quality is surprisingly, consistently excellent . Mine is a Czechpoint Sporter with 3,300 rounds consumed.

Yeah, the VZ58 share more in common with the Swedish Ljungman than an AK47. Probably where the Czechs got their design ideas I would presume.

striker fired
Short stroke, impingement
Top cover looks very Ljungman like

 

[valnar]

I'm a Vz.58 zealot myself, owning three of them and zero AK47's. One benefit is outside of a few bad apples (cough...Century), the design is standard and always good. It's not like AK's where you have the whole gamut from good to bad. Likewise, if you're going to spend the $$ on a top notch AK47, you're in Vz.58 territory anyway.

 

[WisBorn]

Back to the cartridge discussion.
I was on Midway USA this morning so I checked their ammo availability for the 5.56×45 & 7.62×39.
28 for the 5.56
2 for the 7.62

When I owned my AK I shot Tula FMJ steel case. It was accurate out to the distance I would like shooting out to.
My AR was more finicky. With its faster twist barrel the only range ammo that I found that gave halfway decent accuracy was green tip 62 grain FMJ. Never tried steel case.

While working as an RSO. If an AR was having issues cycling ammo it was steel case ammo related over 50% of the time.
AK rifles just ran ... now there were more AR rifles on the range to have issues with.

 

[481]

Back to the cartridge discussion.
I was on Midway USA this morning so I checked their ammo availability for the 5.56×45 & 7.62×39.
28 for the 5.56
2 for the 7.62

When I owned my AK I shot Tula FMJ steel case. It was accurate out to the distance I would like shooting out to.
My AR was more finicky. With its faster twist barrel the only range ammo that I found that gave halfway decent accuracy was green tip 62 grain FMJ. Never tried steel case.

While working as an RSO. If an AR was having issues cycling ammo it was steel case ammo related over 50% of the time.
AK rifles just ran ... now there were more AR rifles on the range to have issues with.

The "sensitivity" of the AR to a number of factors, many of which you describe, is what drove me away from the platform and to the Kalashnikov system.

With a quality build (in my specific case, all are milled receiver Arsenals-- 3 SAM7Rs and 3 SASM7s) and decent ammunition, the AK offers acceptable combat accuracy out to 300m which is sufficient for 99% of the potential need that any of us might have in any conceivable set of dire conditions while still matching (and slightly exceeding it at that!) the US ARMY BRL P[I/H] of the 5.56NATO.

For threats beyond 300m, unless there is some pressing need to engage, displacement is a much better option.

 

[Goosey]

It's bizarre how the poll is tied when the question specified "with FMJ". With that limitation, the 5.56 can even outdo the 7.62x51 at close ranges. The M43 steel core that is most commonly found in combat zones is pretty poor. Flat-base styles are supposed to be a bit better. Neither is going to violently fragment like the 5.56 can at closer ranges.

 

[Ignition Override]

Wisborn:
As of this moment --on Monday night --ammo avail. for these Two chamberings at Midway might have changed somewhat from six hours ago.

"It" .... probably won't happen.

 

[WrongHanded]

I just wanted to post this for informational purposes, as people may find it interesting.

5.56x45, 7.62x39, and 7.62x51. In cardbox packages only (no plastic). 20 rounds each. Weighed in Ounces.



The individual cartridges, but weighed in Grams for a higher contrast between each.



Interpret it as you see fit.

 

[herrwalther]

I have a lot more experience with 5.56 compared to 7.62x39. So my vote is heavily biased.

At the time I voted (now), each option has 39 votes. And same is 14 votes. Just funny to me.

 

[adcoch1]

I just wanted to post this for informational purposes, as people may find it interesting.

5.56x45, 7.62x39, and 7.62x51. In cardbox packages only (no plastic). 20 rounds each. Weighed in Ounces.

View attachment 1143659 View attachment 1143657 View attachment 1143656

The individual cartridges, but weighed in Grams for a higher contrast between each.

View attachment 1143661 View attachment 1143662 View attachment 1143663

Interpret it as you see fit.

This is good food for thought.

 

[WrongHanded]

I have a lot more experience with 5.56 compared to 7.62x39. So my vote is heavily biased.

At the time I voted (now), each option has 39 votes. And same is 14 votes. Just funny to me.

I've been watching it go up. First higher on the x39 side, then the 5.56. The x39 caught back up and it's been nudging higher on both sides since.

 

[Beck]

Russian military ditched the 7.62x39 a long time ago. The AK-47 legend still lingers in the 30 cal club..

Yes and no. Russia has only replaced 7.62x39 on paper, not in the field. AKs/AKMs chambered in both 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 are used by the Russian military, though the switch to 5.45x39 began in the mid 1970s.

As late as 2006 Russia began a program to perfect the 7.62x39 round. That led to a new bullet design from Vympel that wounds by tumbling like the stubby M67 but with a higher BC for longer range.

On the civilian side you can see a version of that bullet if you use Golden Tiger, which is made exclusively in the Russian Vympel factory. It's a 124 gr FMJ boat-tail with an air pocket in the nose, so the weight of the bullet is to the rear. The bullet is much longer than the M67 and has a BC of around .310 - .320. When it hits soft tissue it eventually goes sideways flattens out and tumbles, creating a ghastly wound.

But nothing is more telling than the photos of dead Russian soldiers in Ukraine with their 7.62x39 AKs easily differentiated from the 5.45x39 variety by the more pronounced curvature of the magazine.

So you are correct that Russia began to replace AKs in 7.62x39 with 5.45x39. They just never got it done.

 

[CoalTrain49]

But nothing is more telling than the photos of dead Russian soldiers in Ukraine with their 7.62x39 AKs easily differentiated from the 5.45x39 variety by the more pronounced curvature of the magazine.

I understand that Russian soldiers will be using horses in Ukraine soon also. Things must be tough in the Russian army if they are still using 7.62x 39 and horses.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1642369190932754438

 

[Beck]

I understand that Russian soldiers will be using horses in Ukraine soon also. Things must be tough in the Russian army if they are still using 7.62x 39 and horses.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1642369190932754438

Haha about the horse report.

Seriously though, nothing wrong with 7.62x39. I wouldn't feel disadvantaged carrying that round into battle... depending on the weapon of course. Hundreds of thousands of people all over the world have been happily killing each other for decades with weapons chambered in 7.62x39, and still are.

Not just in the middle east or the Congo either. In Finland (About to become a NATO member finally) the standard issue battle weapon is the RK 62 chambered in 7.62x39. With companies like Sako, Valmet, and Lapua, the Finns could afford and develop about anything they could dream up. I'm sure they will eventually move to NATO chamberings, but for now they still love their 7.62x39. It works for them.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/05/01/finlands-new-updated-rk62-m3/

 

[WrongHanded]

Haha about the horse report.

Seriously though, nothing wrong with 7.62x39. I wouldn't feel disadvantaged carrying that round into battle... depending on the weapon of course. Hundreds of thousands of people all over the world have been happily killing each other for decades with weapons chambered in 7.62x39, and still are.

Not just in the middle east or the Congo either. In Finland (About to become a NATO member finally) the standard issue battle weapon is the RK 62 chambered in 7.62x39. With companies like Sako, Valmet, and Lapua, the Finns could afford and develop about anything they could dream up. I'm sure they will eventually move to NATO chamberings, but for now they still love their 7.62x39. It works for them.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/05/01/finlands-new-updated-rk62-m3/

Interesting. It looks like a rifle that can handle extreme cold very well. Pretty important if you're defending a country that suffers frigid winters.

 

[PistoleroWadcutterGANG]

My two cents. God forbid things get that worse (they will). IT is paramount to have firearms chambered in the two most popular cartridges. So, I say if able get both.

 

[WrongHanded]

My two cents. God forbid things get that worse (they will). IT is paramount to have firearms chambered in the two most popular cartridges. So, I say if able get both.

Well, that's actually a really good point. So the Mini-14 I already own, and the Zastava M70 I'm waiting for.

 

[Beck]

Interesting. It looks like a rifle that can handle extreme cold very well. Pretty important if you're defending a country that suffers frigid winters.

Yep, and defending a country that has been invaded twice by Russia (Soviet Union). The upgraded R 62 does look very capable. I've always wanted a Finnish Valmet in 7.62x39 as a stable mate for my Ruger Mini-30, but the price has always made it out of reach. The Finns make quality stuff.

 

[Bcwitt]

Yes and no. Russia has only replaced 7.62x39 on paper, not in the field. AKs/AKMs chambered in both 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 are used by the Russian military, though the switch to 5.45x39 began in the mid 1970s.

As late as 2006 Russia began a program to perfect the 7.62x39 round. That led to a new bullet design from Vympel that wounds by tumbling like the stubby M67 but with a higher BC for longer range.

On the civilian side you can see a version of that bullet if you use Golden Tiger, which is made exclusively in the Russian Vympel factory. It's a 124 gr FMJ boat-tail with an air pocket in the nose, so the weight of the bullet is to the rear. The bullet is much longer than the M67 and has a BC of around .310 - .320. When it hits soft tissue it eventually goes sideways flattens out and tumbles, creating a ghastly wound.

But nothing is more telling than the photos of dead Russian soldiers in Ukraine with their 7.62x39 AKs easily differentiated from the 5.45x39 variety by the more pronounced curvature of the magazine.

So you are correct that Russia began to replace AKs in 7.62x39 with 5.45x39. They just never got it done.

That is correct.

 

[Ignition Override]

Beck (or whoever might know):
As for fellow new NATO member Sweden, doesn’t Sweden have many thousands of G3 rifles stored in mint condition ? A poster stated this on a different gun website.

If they no longer use the A4 (Swedish model) G3, maybe they could Donate them to Finland for a better effective range in open areas.

 

[WrongHanded]

Beck (or whoever might know):
As for fellow new NATO member Sweden, doesn’t Sweden have many thousands of G3 rifles stored in mint condition ? A poster stated this on a different gun website.

If they no longer use the A4 (Swedish model) G3, maybe they could Donate them to Finland for a better effective range in open areas.

Another interesting point about Finland, is that it's almost all within the boreal forest range. So there aren't a whole lot of open areas. Which is not to say a greater effective range might not be beneficial, but up to now it probably hasn't been a priority.

 

[481]

I just wanted to post this for informational purposes, as people may find it interesting.

5.56x45, 7.62x39, and 7.62x51. In cardbox packages only (no plastic). 20 rounds each. Weighed in Ounces.

View attachment 1143659 View attachment 1143657 View attachment 1143656

The individual cartridges, but weighed in Grams for a higher contrast between each.

View attachment 1143661 View attachment 1143662 View attachment 1143663

Interpret it as you see fit.

Thanks for providing the weights of the individual cartridges.

The BRL Bio-Physics Division Provisional Personnel Incapacitation models, based upon the analysis of 7,898 WDMET (Wound Data Munitions Effectiveness Team) combat wound data, were used by the US ARMY to match the P[I/H] of the 5.56x45mm M193 to the P[I/H] of the 7.62x39mm M43.

The 29.4% weight savings of the 5.56x45mm M193 over the 7.62x39 M43 (12 grams vs. 17 grams, respectively) makes the 5.56x45mm the more preferable of the two cartridges since both cartridges have equivalent P[I/H] and T[I/H] values.

The T[I/H] (Expected Time to Incapacitation, measured in seconds) was computed using the minimum ΔE15 necessary to achieve a 100.00% P[I/H] scaled against a nominal 1-second time constant.



YMMV.

 

[Goosey]