5 shot revolver enough against 5 robbers

If I had a jewelry store I would maybe have a 5 shot revolver as a backup. I would want a full size semi-auto for more firepower and faster reloads
to protect my store. A jewelry store is a huge target because of the high value of the goods. Someone could run off with $100,000 + with just a fanny pack full of product. Maybe even a shotgun behind the counter as well.
 
Yes, five rounds can be enough. An empty gun can be enough, though I don't recommend it.

The scoop is something that has been known since the 1980s. The mere presence of a defensive firearm is often enough to send bad guys running for the door. Of course it's not going to work that way all the time, so it's good to have some grasp of tactics.

We can't make advanced training for civilians mandatory, but it should be strongly encouraged.

The elderly fellow in the story was brave, but also lucky. His actions are commendable and his attitude is something we need to see more of.

Another part of this is the round count debate of course. It can get ridiculous. When I was an LEO I carried a S&W 5900 Series with 15-Rnd magazines. That's up by one round from the 59 series that preceded it, which originally had 14-Rnd mags. Later Mec-Gar came out with 17-Rnd mags. Yeah, I bought a couple 17 rounders, but where does it end? 50-Rnd drums?

Meanwhile, I knew many officers from other, bigger municipal police departments who still carried 6-shot revolvers and two speed loaders.

As much as I love math and statistics, it doesn't inform us all that much here. Behavioral science sheds more light. The five young thugs didn't want to die for their cause. Being confronted by an elderly fellow with a gun in his hand was not part of their plan.

These were not soldiers fighting for their country. They were criminals. The psychology couldn't be more different between those groups. Their tactics (or the lack of them) were worse than the lone defender who prevailed in this encounter.

A single-shot shotgun would have been enough. Criminals, alone or in groups, consist of individuals who don't want to get killed.
 
I've got a Sig 365 in my pocket; but, first lets see what the "story" is according to you from a post in a prior thread:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/pocket-carry.920291/#post-12654816
"These 10+ capacity micro 9mms really aren't pocket guns, IMO. Too much weight. Due to the shape, no good way to draw. This even extends to lcps and kel tecs, for me the blocky shapes print more and get hung up while drawing, slowing you down.
After tons of practice, draw to fire times, Shot placement speed and consideration I'm back to a j frame.
Fastest draw on target for me. I think that rates higher than capacity and reload speed for me and my needs.

I will always carry at least another 5 rounds in a speed strip, but I can tell you at least 3 aggressors would know they've been in a fight."

I don't know about you but I am not required to tuck my shirt and my always untucked shirt does a fair job of breaking outline of my pocket.
My untucked shirt also conceals the Glock I've got AIWB.
I like options; quickest draw when my hand is not in my pocket or seated (AIWB) or I can put my hand in my pocket without revealing I'm carrying if I feel the need.

If I HAD TO tuck my shirt then a Kahr PM9 with a small pocket hand sanitizer in front of to break outline works fine.
(And the hand sanitizer is useful after shaking hands 🤢 , touching gas pumps, door handles, shopping carts)

Note that my reply was not to try to change your opinion, only present my perspective of a 365 as a pocket gun.
Yep. Nothing has changed. Only pocket carry works and j frames /lcr does it better and faster with the draw then other options I've tried:

Hellcat
P365/w safety
Lcp
Lcp max
Bobcat
Ply 22
Bersa
Ppk
Beretta 9000
Naa guardian
Naa mini
Sig p238 and p938

The ruger ec9 wasn't terrible. Still slower to draw and fire but wish I kept that one.
 
If I had a jewelry store I would maybe have a 5 shot revolver as a backup. I would want a full size semi-auto for more firepower and faster reloads
to protect my store. A jewelry store is a huge target because of the high value of the goods. Someone could run off with $100,000 + with just a fanny pack full of product. Maybe even a shotgun behind the counter as well.
If I had a jewelry store I would open carry and wear a vest. Wasn't that guys shop in LA? I remember reading about this years ago.
A shotgun is a great idea for that job. Your own shop is like your own home, why not have a rifle or shotgun handy.
 
Yep. Nothing has changed. Only pocket carry works and j frames /lcr does it better and faster with the draw then other options I've tried:

Hellcat
P365/w safety
Lcp
Lcp max
Bobcat
Ply 22
Bersa
Ppk
Beretta 9000
Naa guardian
Naa mini
Sig p238 and p938

The ruger ec9 wasn't terrible. Still slower to draw and fire but wish I kept that one.
My EC9 Ruger is always hot and is easier to draw than the Chief's Special AW I carried for 30+ years. I like them both, however.
 
This gentleman and I share a similar experience.
In the late 80s, I was on the phone to the locals when a drunken neighbor broke the latch on my aluminum storm door (I had failed to close the inner door - my bad) chasing his g/f who had come over to use my phone to call the cops. While on the phone with the dispatcher, I was pointing my .380 at him and would have shot IF he had come any closer. The guy was almost 6' and 270 lbs. to my 5'7" and 210 lbs. so he out-reached and out-weighed me and I wasn't about to let him get any closer as I was is a corner with no exit while on the phone.
Fortunately, he wasn't so drunk that he failed to realized I had him covered so he turned and left with no shots fired. (whew!)

The cops didn't arrive until 10 minutes later. :uhoh:
 
How many videos are easily available showing multiple attackers ? a group of 3 or more trying to break down a house door, armed with rifles?

Ok lesser ammo advocates, cancel the large life insurance policy? Go state minimum for vehicle insurance? No fire extinguishers in the house? No safe? What's a seat belt again? The tracks are clear (well! I mean, the train is sitting down 100 yds!) ? AND WHY EVEN lock the house doors , just going down to the convenient will be back in 10? Don't take wife or in absence of same GF out for dinner?

And if the aftermath of the last one doesn't get ya (hahaha) yes, for lots of things in life, the risks are low but the stakes are high

I'll take all that (X) a multiplier of 9, divided by 3. EXCEPT, if I find a better formula and a coefficient....mmm.... life safety is a math quiz so says cheese whiz...can I buy a vowel...I'm ready to solve the puzzle Alex....
 
How many videos are easily available showing multiple attackers ? a group of 3 or more trying to break down a house door, armed with rifles?
There are a few out there, although, generally when a large group targets a house it's not random. But the point is that it doesn't take 3 or more. Dealing with 2 at normal gunfight hit rates and only 5 rounds turns out to be very difficult (about a 3% success rate) if the attackers don't run and even with only one determined attacker, a 30% hit rate and 2 hits required to incapacitate, the defender will fail about 50% of the time.
I'll take all that (X) a multiplier of 9, divided by 3. EXCEPT, if I find a better formula and a coefficient....
There is no "better" in terms of what the calculation is intended to show--it is the proper calculation to determine the probabilities for the given assumptions. That said, what it tells us is pretty limited. In one sense, it's really more of a "best case" scenario in terms of how likely it is to get the required number of hits given the stated assumptions.
 
Being in a few FOF with two robbers/nuts, etc. and a 5 shot J frame - with lots of movement, close in, not time to take a perfect square range stance - you note that you run out of rounds fairly quickly, your hits can be peripheral. Yep, as I always say - a limited gun is a compromise for various reasons and one appreciates that it is a compromise.

Hits in a USPSA match, IDPA match versus a FOF uproar - you note that the Zero downs and A hits are not to be expected. Oh, gee - the bad guy shooting at you is bladed at an angle, and you are lucky to hit the bad person in the shoulder. You missed with your other round.

It's not when the guy runs away, it's when the fight is on.
 
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Counterpoint - when 5 shots isn't enough.

ASP video of 2 ladies fighting off an armed robber at a liquor store with a 5 shot snubby and what looks like a Beretta tip up barrel 22.

Sorry I don't want to be like those ladies and run out of ammo in the 1st gun.

I want every advantage possible for personal defense - good 3 dot night sights, mag capacity of at least 7+1, with a backup magazine, that I can hit at 25yds with.
 
Counterpoint - when 5 shots isn't enough.

ASP video of 2 ladies fighting off an armed robber at a liquor store with a 5 shot snubby and what looks like a Beretta tip up barrel 22.

Sorry I don't want to be like those ladies and run out of ammo in the 1st gun.

I want every advantage possible for personal defense - good 3 dot night sights, mag capacity of at least 7+1, with a backup magazine, that I can hit at 25yds with.

That example doesn't count if you don't work in a liquor store. ;) (I've had people say as much)
And if it did count, they anticipate having exemplary shot placement under stress, so it still doesn't count.;)
Basically any conclusion except Someone can take 5 hits and not be quickly incapacitated, therefore I may need more than 5 rounds- that is not the conclusion. ;):evil:

This one doesn't count unless one is LE, for non-LE this could never happen🙄 (who is pulling the trigger effects speed of incapacitation):🙄
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/v...deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/
Something about transition to head shot, not a cop, _____, anything other than OMG if that guy was not quickly incapacitated it could happen again; that is not the take away.;)
 
I can't find the news article but there was a off duty police officer that was killed or nearly killed when his 5 shot snubby ran dry in front of a Walmart some 5 or 6 years ago.
 
Then we have Elisjsha Dicken shooting 10 shots (hitting with 8rds) from his Glock 9mm starting at 40 yds and then closing in on the Greenwood Mall Mass Shooter.



 
73 year old store owner stops robbery.From ASP.

This is NOT to suggest anyone should rely solely on a 5 shot. It was enough in this case and shows having a firearm is key to winning a gun fight.

Of note is the police were there before the robbers got away, but the near presence still wasn't enough to stop the situation.

The link if needed. https://youtu.be/kBGxPZGImbU?si=cOLd8NCJbFMrc_7T
The movie Kuffs had a great scene....



Good guys have a shotgun with no extended mag tube. Bad guys points it out to his cohorts. Good guy shoots bad guy who pointed it out.

Bad guys don't want to get shot. Sure, there might be more bad guys than there is ammo in the good guy's gun. But do the bad guys want to win the "who gets shot lotto" ticket?
 
Ammunition capacity always seems to attract debate lightning strikes whenever it comes up.

If only skills development and maintenance would attract the same attention. :cool:

Handguns are a compromise. Always. Pick your favorite type(s) of compromise. There are compromises within compromises within compromises that someone may consider.

Choose as you will, and hope your choice ends up being a benefit for you in any unavoidable situation that may come your way.

There's still some merit to the old saying that "You'll probably run out of time, before you run out of ammunition".

I like another old one, "Hits and Misses both matter, but the differences may be critical".

Suit yourselves.

Whenever I had guys & gals show up for quals or training classes, the primary concern (after SAFETY) always hits on-target. Misses and going too slowly could be problematic on the range, but might be dire once off the range, in the real world. Having the additional capacity to produce additional misses isn't usually found in the benefit column. :scrutiny:
 
A sig 365 with 11 round capacity versus a 5 shot snub:
View attachment 1188325
Yes, times have changed and guns have evolved.

But that doesn't mean a 5-shot snub nose is worthless. It'll still put someone six feet under. Heck, a Colt 1851 is still as lethal today as the day that it was invented. Not every gun owner ditches what they have for the latest and greatest fad. I recall that after the civil war, gun owners kept right on using front stuffers and cap 'n ball wheel guns into the early 20th century because its what they had, it worked, and their limited funds could go elsewhere.

Someone that is on a limited income and already owns a J-Frame or inherited one, is better off that someone on a limited income and trying to decide to buy a new gun or pay the bills.

Plus, I still regularly carry a 5-shot snub nose and I don't see under-armed. It ain't the arrow, it is the Indian.
 
Ammunition capacity always seems to attract debate lightning strikes whenever it comes up.

If only skills development and maintenance would attract the same attention. :cool:

Handguns are a compromise. Always. Pick your favorite type(s) of compromise. There are compromises within compromises within compromises that someone may consider.

Choose as you will, and hope your choice ends up being a benefit for you in any unavoidable situation that may come your way.

There's still some merit to the old saying that "You'll probably run out of time, before you run out of ammunition".

I like another old one, "Hits and Misses both matter, but the differences may be critical".

Suit yourselves.

Whenever I had guys & gals show up for quals or training classes, the primary concern (after SAFETY) always hits on-target. Misses and going too slowly could be problematic on the range, but might be dire once off the range, in the real world. Having the additional capacity to produce additional misses isn't usually found in the benefit column. :scrutiny:
Life is a compromise. We all carry handguns because they're convenient and easier to tote around that a rifle or shotgun. Also, in some places, you can't legally carry a long gun.

Now, if a snub nose the gun for the novice? Heck no! But it is better than nothing. But I do tire of seeing FFL counter-jockeys constantly telling new women shooters that the PERFECT GUN FOR 'EM is a scandium framed .357 Magnum J-Frame. I do recommend the snub nose to shooters that have experience and want something compact, capable, and reliable. And no, revolvers are not inherently more reliable than a well-built automatic. In fact, revolvers are far more complicated designs. But they are intrinsic and easier to use for a shooter that has gone through a basic class or two and want something that is very simple to work.

Anyways, I always tell folks to practice, practice, and practice. That and a .22 in the hand always beats a .45 in the safe.
 
If I had a jewelry store I would open carry and wear a vest. Wasn't that guys shop in LA? I remember reading about this years ago.
A shotgun is a great idea for that job. Your own shop is like your own home, why not have a rifle or shotgun handy.
Lance Thomas is the gentleman's name and he owned a watch store in LA.

 
This gentleman and I share a similar experience.
In the late 80s, I was on the phone to the locals when a drunken neighbor broke the latch on my aluminum storm door (I had failed to close the inner door - my bad) chasing his g/f who had come over to use my phone to call the cops. While on the phone with the dispatcher, I was pointing my .380 at him and would have shot IF he had come any closer. The guy was almost 6' and 270 lbs. to my 5'7" and 210 lbs. so he out-reached and out-weighed me and I wasn't about to let him get any closer as I was is a corner with no exit while on the phone.
Fortunately, he wasn't so drunk that he failed to realized I had him covered so he turned and left with no shots fired. (whew!)

The cops didn't arrive until 10 minutes later. :uhoh:
When seconds count, cops are minutes to an hour away!

I know that because I was a cop.
 
Life is a compromise. We all carry handguns because they're convenient and easier to tote around that a rifle or shotgun. Also, in some places, you can't legally carry a long gun.

Now, if a snub nose the gun for the novice? Heck no! But it is better than nothing. But I do tire of seeing FFL counter-jockeys constantly telling new women shooters that the PERFECT GUN FOR 'EM is a scandium framed .357 Magnum J-Frame. I do recommend the snub nose to shooters that have experience and want something compact, capable, and reliable. And no, revolvers are not inherently more reliable than a well-built automatic. In fact, revolvers are far more complicated designs. But they are intrinsic and easier to use for a shooter that has gone through a basic class or two and want something that is very simple to work.

Anyways, I always tell folks to practice, practice, and practice. That and a .22 in the hand always beats a .45 in the safe.

Yeah, the very attributes that make the little 5-shot snubs, especially the lightweight ones, so handy also tends to make them difficult for folks to shoot. ;)

In the days when a lot of the firearms trainers carried snub revolvers in their pockets, they also acknowledged that the little snubs were more 'experts' guns, than guns for the beginner, or even many 'average' shooters. Not all full-size revolver shooters could handle the littler snubs with the same skill and aplomb.

Nowadays we're starting to see that the littlest of new diminutive pistols have caused many 'average' shooters to realize that stuffing duty calibers in such little packages comes with a cost, meaning increased recoil and controllability issues. The wheel remains round. ;)

Littler guns, whether revolvers or pistols, tend to demand more of the shooter. Water's still wet in normal temperature ranges.

A well-built revolver or pistol can be reliable, although both designs can be susceptible to various shooter, ammunition and environmental-related issues. As an armorer, I'd much rather repair some of the common pistols than a S&W revolver, although the newer Model S&W's are a lot easier to repair and correct than the older ones, before the days of CNC and MIM allowed for tighter tolerances. The hammer sear in a new S&W, according to what they told us in the armorer class, typically drops into revolvers without any fitting (beyond the original factory cut) 90% of the time. Replacing an older machined hammer sear is more work, often requiring hand-fitting of 3 surfaces on the sear.

Cutting the extractor ratchet points is easier nowadays, too, using the factory-supplied hand-cutting tool. Especially since the new style extractors use the shape of the extractor recess cuts, and cases in the charge holes, to maintain proper alignment. I just realized I have a couple pics of a couple tools, for cutting J-frame extractors. The few extractors I've cut haven't required further hand-filing/fitting beyond using the hand cutting tool in the specific gun.



It used to require 7 different machines during revolver production to make each of the older machined hammers, and now they pop out of the MIM molds and are made to much more exacting in tolerances.

I've listened to some guys who used to work in S&W revolver production and repair discuss the differences between the older and new model revolvers. ;) Now, if only the human factor could be kept within such exacting tolerances during assembly and inspection. It's still annoying to see some QC issues slip out the door that ought to have been caught and corrected during production. Well, when you no longer need machinists working on the guns, and you get more parts replacement people, that may happen, I suppose. It certainly does with the parts-is-parts pistols now and again.
 
In timely coincidence with this thread, today I'm going to be pocket-holstering one of my J's for my first trip over to my cigar club since getting over covid approx a couple weeks ago.

My first M&P 340, although the folding knives will be different than in this pic.
 
Yeah, the very attributes that make the little 5-shot snubs, especially the lightweight ones, so handy also tends to make them difficult for folks to shoot. ;)

In the days when a lot of the firearms trainers carried snub revolvers in their pockets, they also acknowledged that the little snubs were more 'experts' guns, than guns for the beginner, or even many 'average' shooters. Not all full-size revolver shooters could handle the littler snubs with the same skill and aplomb.

Nowadays we're starting to see that the littlest of new diminutive pistols have caused many 'average' shooters to realize that stuffing duty calibers in such little packages comes with a cost, meaning increased recoil and controllability issues. The wheel remains round. ;)

Littler guns, whether revolvers or pistols, tend to demand more of the shooter. Water's still wet in normal temperature ranges.

A well-built revolver or pistol can be reliable, although both designs can be susceptible to various shooter, ammunition and environmental-related issues. As an armorer, I'd much rather repair some of the common pistols than a S&W revolver, although the newer Model S&W's are a lot easier to repair and correct than the older ones, before the days of CNC and MIM allowed for tighter tolerances. The hammer sear in a new S&W, according to what they told us in the armorer class, typically drops into revolvers without any fitting (beyond the original factory cut) 90% of the time. Replacing an older machined hammer sear is more work, often requiring hand-fitting of 3 surfaces on the sear.

Cutting the extractor ratchet points is easier nowadays, too, using the factory-supplied hand-cutting tool. Especially since the new style extractors use the shape of the extractor recess cuts, and cases in the charge holes, to maintain proper alignment. I just realized I have a couple pics of a couple tools, for cutting J-frame extractors. The few extractors I've cut haven't required further hand-filing/fitting beyond using the hand cutting tool in the specific gun.



It used to require 7 different machines during revolver production to make each of the older machined hammers, and now they pop out of the MIM molds and are made to much more exacting in tolerances.

I've listened to some guys who used to work in S&W revolver production and repair discuss the differences between the older and new model revolvers. ;) Now, if only the human factor could be kept within such exacting tolerances during assembly and inspection. It's still annoying to see some QC issues slip out the door that ought to have been caught and corrected during production. Well, when you no longer need machinists working on the guns, and you get more parts replacement people, that may happen, I suppose. It certainly does with the parts-is-parts pistols now and again.
I just wish S&W stopped making K, L, and N frames with the stupid lock. They make J-frames lock-free.... sigh.... until then. I'll keep on buying older S&Ws.

But yes, water is still wet. When SIG released the P365, I shot it. I noticed that the recoil in such a little gun is stout for 9mm. But then again, a Ruger LCP is stout too for being a little .380. Guns the size of the P365 used to be ,380 and ,32 ACP chamberings and guns the size of the LCP used to be .32s and .25s too.
 
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