500 guns found in elderly's home

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If they can take 2a away from some of us, why can't they take 1a away from others of us? Chances are, he would like to take 1a away from some of us too.
So far I have not seen an answer. Probably because we all know the answer, but are too sad to have to say it. It seems to me like they took 5a from us....4a too. At least they still observe 3a.

Personally, I have incorporated the BoR into the states due to the fact that most of the rights stated therin came from a higher power than .gov.

I don't know, but from what I can tell, back in yon days of yore, a violent criminal act would usually end up with the perp swinging. Stealing a horse was a capital offense. Lesser crimes would get you stuck in the stocks or spending some time on the chain gang.

We have become so civilized so now we try to rehabilitate the really bad ones and take away Martha Stewarts God given rights.
 
The New Jersey Fire Code and Criminal Code defines smokeless powder as an explosive. NJ had some bad experiences in the past with explosions at Alliance Powder and other gunpowder manufacturing plants. Many killed.

Gasoline and other fuels are classified under the Fire Code as Flammable and Combustible Liquids.

NJ does not have a restriction on fully assembled ammo as far as I can determine.

When all is said and done, the firearms and ammunition will be seized as contraband. The former physician will do little if no time and be allowed to die on his own dime.
 
jdberger? I would like to take exception to your comparison of the first and second amendment restrictions. As per the first ammendment, I have the freedom of speech. I am allowed to protest the government, I can speak freely about politicians. I can say just about anything I want, to just about anyone I want. I can buy a newspaper, or radio station, or internet blog, and say almost anything.

If I yell fire in a crowded theater, or slander someone, there is a punishment for it. It is not protected speech, it is slander, or inducing a riot, or creating a dangerous panic.

As per the 2nd ammendment, I have the right to keep and bear arms. I can purchase them, and I can carry them. So can you, and by my interpretation of the bill of rights, so can anyone else that is not in jail or prison.

If I fire one in a crowded theater, or shoot at someone with intent to harm him, there is a punishment for it. It is not protected activity, it is assault, or a threat to the public safety.

You approve of restricting some peoples possesion of firearms, and some firearms more than others. Do you also approve of restricting them from publishing a newspaper, or speaking on the radio, or running an internet blog?

RESTRICT machine guns====restrict newspapers
RESTRICT assault weapons====restrict radio stations
RESTRICT saturday night specials====restrict ability to vocalize
RESTRICT hand grenades====restrict internet blogs sites

It is illegal to shout fire in a crowded theater, it is also illegal to shoot randomly into that theater.

It is illegal to slander someone, it is also illegal to shoot at them.

In my opinion if I support my right to keep and bear arms it means nothing. EVERYONE SUPPORTS THEIR PERSONAL RIGHT. It only has meaning when I support YOUR right to keep and bear arms, ANY arms, and in ANY manner you choose, openly, or concealed, in a pocket, a holster, or your hand. I think that EVERY PERSON reading this should have the right to keep and bear arms, unless they are currently locked up and reading this in prison, or a phsychiatric facility.

They will come for the fifty caliber rifles.
They will come for the assault weapons.
They will come for the cheaply made pistols.
They will come for the high capacity pistols.
They will come for the semi-automatics.
They will come for the scope sighted sniper rifles.
They will come for the ammunition.
They will come for the shotguns.

Which ones will you stand up and speak out to protect? When you do, will any of the others still be around to stand up and speak to support you?

I apologize for allowing my high capacity, assault keyboard to run away with itself. I will disconnect it and lock it away when I leave so it does not attack anyone else by itself. :eek:
 
oi...I was thinking metric, thus liters, not gallons. At roughly a kilo a liter...200 would be a better number.

But I see someone has posted the relative NJ laws on powder storage, so it's a moot point.
 
I guess I will add in MTCW....

I remember seeing somewhere that there was somthing possibly on the books for a felon to be able to get an exemption for firearms ownership...in case he wanted to go hunting or do sport (imsa idpa etc etc)shooting...is this not the case? and if not, then why not?

I figure that a law along the lines as such.....

A. Cannot be convicted of a violent crime.
B. Cannot have a pending crime.
C. A time period of no less than 5 years from the end of punishment should pass.

and most importantly,
D. Must prove to a warden of the state in which he resides (Judge, Sheriff, Constable, District Attorney...anyone elected by the people) beyond a resonable doubt that he is competent and productive.


I know I will need my Nomex for this next comment, but I KNOW several people who own firearms and aren't felons who wouldn't be able to pass my D law. :scrutiny:

Darrell
 
If you return an elderly person to a wide open home, you will check and secure that home before leaving her there. While doing that you may reasonably observe things that give probable cause to believe a criminal act has been committed.
Now I am just going on the article here (which I understand is probably not accurate) but the police said they sought a warrant because the windows and doors were open, not because there were firearms in plain view. No one except the police really knows what happened but I would think that if they got a warrant because they saw firearms, they would say they got a warrant because they saw firearms. :rolleyes:
 
Ah . . . the helpful police relieving that couple of their property . . . . a search warrant because the windows were open . . . . .

So both 82 and frail . . . . well they got the next terrorist cell all wrapped up right there.

This should bother everyone . . . . a lot.
 
I'd be willing to bet most of his firearms were pre 68 purchased, thus never registered.
 
a search warrant because the windows were open
Puhleasse?! :barf: No judge in the world would sign a search warrant based on open doors and windows. Use some common sense.

Let's go back to the felon thingy...
but you are a "lawbreaker" or "felon" only until you have been released from your term of imprisonment, at which point you have paid your debt and the people have determined that you are no longer a threat to society.
Not really. There is no such thing as an "ex-felon." Kinda like being an ex-veteran. Once a felon, always a felon. HOWEVER--it is possible to have your rights restored. I know that it can be done in California and Arizona. I knew a guy that was convicted of credit card fraud (grand theft) that had his rights restored. He anwered "Yes" on the 4473 and the dealer had to attach a copy of his papers restoring his rights to the form.

Having exhibited a propensity to violate the social contract on at least one previous occasion, criminals cannot be trusted to exercise the franchise without corruption. Allowing ex-convicts to retain all of their rights of citizenship could have a perverse effect on the ability of law abiding citizens to reduce the deadly and debilitating crime in their communities.

A variant of this argument focuses on macro-level consequences for the legitimacy of democratic government. It maintains that the purity of civil rights are undermined by the participation of tainted individuals. In the philosophical arguments associated with the republican (small r) and communitarian traditions, for example, the political community can remain viable only insofar as it consists of citizens who respect the rules of democratic procedure and can be expected to live within the norms those rules generate. In conservative variants of these arguments, the presence of criminals within the polity potentially erodes confidence in the community by diluting the rights of noncriminal citizens.

In addressing the restoration of civil rights to convicted felons, the Circuit Court of the Commonwealth of Virginia wrote:
The term "civil rights" when used in this context "does not involve the connotations that presently attach to the term, namely the freedom from discrimination and prejudice,"3 but refers to "deprivations result[ing] from felonious criminal activity."4 Thus, "certain basic rights are lost automatically upon conviction of a felony. The loss of these rights arises by operation of law and is a simple consequence of conviction ... includ[ing] the loss of such rights as suffrage."5 Indeed, the right to vote "is the right most commonly denied the convicted felon."6

But here is the good news: According to US v. Freed, 401 US 601 (1971) if you are a felon and illegally possess a firearm, you are not required to register it (where registration is the law)
Any law that requries gun registration, w/o promising confidentiality of the registration info, likely violates the 5th amendment, as there is no protection from using the info to prosecute a felon or other such person for possessing a firearm when they are not permitted to by law. However it is questionable as to whether this defense to non-registration can be used by anyone except someone who would actually be incriminated; that is you must be actually unable to lawfully possess guns, and then be prosecuted for failing to register them, to take advantage of the loophole. This is why registration schemes are by definition only aimed at the law abiding. Felons have a 5th amendment protection from being prosecuted for violating such schemes.
Sorry for the long post.

There are some good arguments for felons being able to retain their rights to own guns, but they are based on the Civil vs. Human rights dialectic. Not on anything previously brought up in this thread. :neener:
 
Kernel Klink,
To apply for a Calif CCW go to Jim March's page here http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/ for good information and download the California CCW Application at http://www.equalccw.com/appform.html.

If for some reason that doesn't work go to Placer County's CCW page and download their CCW Application. With the exception of the cover page it's the state application.

Be prepared for a hassle but force the issue and make them go on record as denying you a CCW.
 
A lot of issues here. I'd like to toss in my OPINION on a couple.

I think once a convicted felon has fulfilled his obligation his punishment should end. Are former convicts denied any of the other civil liberties or just gun ownership and voting? Not all states prohibit ex-felons from voting, you know. It's a state law on this that governs. But gun ownership is denied via federal law. Why? If the person is so dangerous that he can't own a gun why is he out of prison? I favor restoration of rights once prison and parole is over. OK, maybe 36 months afterwards with no further trouble with the law.

On the "former physician" (retired or license revoked?), he committed a crime by performing abortions in the "early 1970s." To the member who asked if killing babies was legal back then the answer is no, killing babies has never been legal but abortion has been legal since 1973. I know that to many people abortion is killing babies but the law disagrees (again, unpopular with many who view it as immoral) and makes a distinction between the unborn and the born. I assume that this MD was performing abortions before the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision legalizing abortion. If this was a felony (I don't know) then he would be prohibited from owning a gun under the GCA 1968.

This guy sort of sounds like an anti-government libertarian. He simply ignores laws he sees as restricting personal freedom.

Many people are unaware but anyone with a past conviction can petition a court to clear his record. Each state will have its own guidelines on this, but I think that if three years has passed with no other run-ins with the law you have a very good chance of a judge granting the request. At that point, the conviction is gone like it never happened and all rights are restored. Many people with drug possession convictions have their records cleared. Anyone with a very old conviction for some minor offense should look into this.

I think 500 lbs of powder is hard to defend. It does seem to be a fire risk.
 
jdberger it would appear that you have very little knowledge of judges and warrants. Warrants are issued all the time that turn out to be bogus in the end. Judges don't investigate if a warrant is clean and necessary. They rely on the law enforcement official asking.
 
jdberger it would appear that you have very little knowledge of judges and warrants.
Actually, no. I practice criminal defense as a profession. however, my point wasn't that the warrant was flimsy, only that a warrant to search a premises based on "open doors and windows" wouldn't fly. What would it say? "Open doors and windows...." are a what? Or that the PD is to search the place for "open doors and windows?"
jlwatts3 said: Now I am just going on the article here (which I understand is probably not accurate) but the police said they sought a warrant because the windows and doors were open, not because there were firearms in plain view.
 
No judge in the world would sign a search warrant based on open doors and windows. Use some common sense.

Read the article again: "Police said they sought the warrant after bringing Elizabeth Raymond back to her home on Memorial Day and seeing the windows and doors open."

Two things, common sense isn't so common and again, this should bother you.

As our rights are continually erroded away it amazes me how many people step right up to compliment the emperor on his clothes.
 
common sense isn't so common
Really?

LEAVING YOUR :banghead:
DOORS AND :banghead:
WINDOWS :banghead:
OPEN :banghead:
IS NOT :banghead:
A CRIME :banghead:


I don't care what the article said. Reporters make mistakes and sometimes omit crucial facts like, 'through all the open doors and windows, police saw 500 pounds of gunpowder and 500 guns scattered around.' :what: (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)

As our rights are continually erroded away it amazes me how many people step right up to compliment the emperor on his clothes.
and how many people are so friggin obtuse that they actually think that asinine things like search warrants based on a homeowners desire for fresh air might be valid. Of course, I'm not referring to anyone here at THR--just them other guys... :D
 
Update

From northjersey.com

I bolded some of my favorites...my comments in RED

Majority of guns in cache illegal

Friday, June 3, 2005

By YUNG KIM
STAFF WRITER

There were some antique weapons, a World War II machine gun and some black powder muzzle-loading muskets, but the majority of nearly 500 firearms found in a Ridgefield home this week are illegal assault rifles, police said Thursday. So the WWII machine gun was 'legal'?

"There is no collector value" to many of the weapons, said borough Detective Robert Williams.

"Every one of the guns were in working condition. A few found were loaded, some with fired rounds in the chamber," Williams said. can we assume these were the notorious bolt action assault rifles?

Sherwin Raymond, 82, remained in police custody Thursday at Hackensack University Medical Center, where authorities said he was receiving dialysis treatment. He is charged with creating a public hazard, which carries a $25,000 bail.

Additional charges were expected as authorities continued to dig through the stockpile of 477 guns taken from Raymond's Abbott Avenue home on Wednesday.

A borough firing range also was sealed on Thursday, but police officials refused to say what role, if any, it plays in their investigation.

Raymond, a former borough police surgeon, is a twice-convicted felon who once sold two silencer-equipped submachine guns to an undercover federal agent. The convictions bar Raymond from collecting weapons.

"Whether he is a collector or not makes no difference," Williams said. "He gave up that right."

What he might have been doing with the seized cache remained an open question.

Among the weapons seized were an undetermined number of AK-47s and 20 Chinese-made SKS semiautomatic rifles with bayonets - both of which are banned in New Jersey.

The overall conditions of the majority of the weapons "were nowhere near collector quality," he said. Is there an objective definition of 'collector quality'?

The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is tracing each of the weapons to help determine where it came from, said Police Chief John Bogovich.

"We are in the beginning stages, and it is probably going to take a minimum of two months to find out the pertinent information," Bogovich said. "Each weapon, depending on where it came from, could be a separate charge."

Police discovered the weapons Monday while escorting Raymond's wife, Elizabeth, back home. The Alzheimer's patient was found wandering disoriented in the neighborhood, they said.

In addition to the firearms, officials also recovered about 100,000 rounds of ammunition, more than 25 large-capacity magazines, and canister tubes that can be used to make silencers, Williams said. Or, they can be used as canisters!

The Bergen County Bomb Squad removed 500 pounds of gunpowder that was left in leaking bags - in some cases no more than 4 feet from a boiler, propane tanks and gasoline, Williams said.

"The overall condition was extremely hazardous," Williams said.

Indeed, if the home had been burglarized, "all hell would have broke loose," said Dominick Polifrone, a former head of the New Jersey office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Because the burglars would have triggered an explosion? People should clearly not create hazardous conditions for theives. "Hey, you! Take down that barbed wire! You could put an eye out!

"That was an accident waiting to happen," Polifrone said. "Talk about a war zone - God forbid this individual started a confrontation. The police would have been very vulnerable. Cause this 82 year old dialysis patient is known in the neighborhood as quite a capable ninja. Rambo Methuselah, they call him.

"If you are a collector with the proper licenses, there is nothing wrong with having as many weapons as you want," Polifrone added. "But the bottom line is, as a felon, those weapons never should have been there."

Assault weapons, which are banned in New Jersey, are relatively easy to come by in other states, such as Pennsylvania, where the guns are legal, he said. The high crime from Vermont is bleeding over into NJ, too!

It's also "very easy" to obtain the needed equipment to convert a semiautomatic rifle - which fires only one bullet at a time before loading the next round - into a full automatic version that spews bullets with a single trigger pull, Polifrone said. One day, one of these reporters is going to show me how to do this.

Calling Raymond a collector is definitely a stretch, said William Vizzard, professor and chairman of the Division of Criminal Justice at California State University-Sacramento. Because this yo-yo has seen the 'collection' and has deemed it just a mish-mash.

"Is a guy who owns a junkyard with cars that don't run a collector?" he asked.

Vizzard said he has come across collections of legally owned guns that topped 1,000. Many of the people simply started buying the weapons and couldn't stop, much like former Philippines first lady Imelda Marcos and her now infamous shoe collection, he said.

"You name it and someone is obsessed with it, shoes, motorcycles, cars, art, but guns have an insidious overtone," Vizzard said. "This [the Ridgefield case] is not that unusual. Most people are just not that stupid." Nice, I'm being compared to Imelda-but I'm much much worse...insidious, even. Am I better or worse than those people with 200 cats?

E-mail: [email protected]
 
And there is VIDEO!!

The video is here
Old coot had a bunch of neat stuff. I spotted an M1A and an FAL. An AK clone or two. And a real old box of Aguila ammo!

Pay attention to the day care teacher...

BTW...in NJ, if you have a C&R, do you have to 'display' your guns like the police chief suggested? :neener:
 
NJ doesn't recognize C&R. Or pre-1899 antique status, either. An 1873 Trapdoor Springfield is treated the same as an AR 15 under NJ law.
 
NJ doesn't recognize C&R. Or pre-1899 antique status, either. An 1873 Trapdoor Springfield is treated the same as an AR 15 under NJ law.
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. :fire: Looks like you learn something new every day...
 
and how many people are so friggin obtuse that they actually think that asinine things like search warrants based on a homeowners desire for fresh air might be valid.

A little rude but I'll respond politely.

You have an awful lot of faith in the system - I don't.

There is no possible way that these guys could have gotten a warrant on something they "observed" that was no longer there when they came with the warrant? It's never happened before?

Not saying their intentions were evil; maybe they were just trying to help the old lady.

But at best this played out wrong. And I repeat, it's worrysome.

And that range closing this makes me think there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. Maybe someone tipped them off . . . . who knows. Not you or I.

And NJ gun laws are completely insane.
 
A little rude but I'll respond politely.
You have an awful lot of faith in the system - I don't.

I'll be a little rude too. You should have more faith, our law enforcement deserves more faith than you give it. I don't see where the police have done anything wrong here at all. I tend to believe it happened as someone else figured it happened, they took an old lady home, saw open doors and windows and investigated for her safety.

If the police are ever escorting my mother home and the door and windows to her home are open, by God they better investigate the opened home before leaving her there. I strongly suspect that everyone on this board would investigate their own mothers home if you were taking home to a house found this way.

I imagine that while making sure the home was safe and secure they noticed the weapons and or explosives. They get a search warrant to inspect further. It has been my experience that law enforcement don t usually go haywire just for the hell of it, they do so when there are circumstances that concern them, that's partly what they're paid to do.

Argue all you want about what happens to this man and whether it's right, wrong, just or unjust, that will be courts decision. Again, I don't see where the police conducted themselves poorly.

I suspect that we are going to find out that there is a link between this gun shop being closed and the finding of the old mans weapons. Maybe the gun shop was knowingly selling the old man weapons? Maybe the old man was illegally suppling guns to folks? I dunno? But I bet we find out there is more to this than we know.
 
Yeah, those terrible, horrible assault weapons. :rolleyes:
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The chief's comments that they were all in working order (and were dangerous because of this) and that a junkyard full of broken-down cars does not a collection make is pretty amusing-- he's trying to have it both ways.

As for "no collector value"-- most of those guns appeared to be in pretty good shape. Even averaging just $100 per firearm, that's almost $50,000 worth of firearms. That's not a collection? That's not collector's value?

Also, the assertion is alternately made that the guns were just lying around, loaded, about to go off on their own and hurt someone, and then that the majority of the guns were in the attic and basement, stored in cases.

500 lbs of powder isn't much when you consider it's only about a pound per gun. Over 7 decades of collection, a man can compile a lot of powder.
 

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I'll be a little rude too. You should have more faith, our law enforcement deserves more faith than you give it.

Actually you weren't rude - you stated your point without using a round about personal attack.

As far as more faith, I do not want to give the impression that I am a cop basher. Many police in the family as well as neighbors and Friends in NJ, NYC and on Long Island.

My opinion is colored by their experiences, and the fact the Law Enforcement is an extension of Government in NJ which is an absolute corrupt nightmare on multiple levels.

It leaves me very, very cynical . . . . . if things are better where you live, and I sincerely hope they are, then maybe there is hope.
 
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