CraigC
Sixgun Nut
If the 7.62x39 is an adequate deer cartridge (and other cartridges like the .243), then so is the .300. All a matter of choosing the right bullet.
6.5 Creedmor more popular than .300 Blackout?
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And the distance that bullet is effective in.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Obviously, that would be part of the equation.
I know some people that have a tendency to forget that part of the equation.
midland man
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lol the old Winchester 30-30 still works ask me how I know?? 
eastbank
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the 30-30 in a H&R handi rifle eats the 300bk,s lunch as good shaped bullets can be used. it will beat the veloicity of the 300bk with any bullet weight by several hundred feet per second. and can be found for under 200.00 in ex condition. i have a costly remington aac model 7 that shoots well with in its limitations and i killed deer with it, so i,m not a hater. in a semi-or auto surrpressed rifle it makes sense for swat and like uses. i do like the package my 300bk came in and i,m going to get a 260-7mmo8-308 in a short light rifle to replace the 300bk. i,m thinking of a tikka light left hand rifle in one of those calibers. eastbank.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Of course it does, nobody said it didn't. It's also an apples to oranges comparison. Big rims are problematic in boltguns and a non-starter for the AR platform. Leverguns can't use pointy bullets and .30-30's don't have a fast enough twist for +200gr bullets. So what's the point? Is there not room enough in the world for anything else? It's not like this is a new concept. I was reading about the .300Whisper in the Contender back in the `80's.lol the old Winchester 30-30 still works ask me how I know??
For $389 I bought a lightweight Ruger American Ranch rifle with a handy 16" threaded barrel in a cartridge that allows me to either shooting heavy subsonic loads for suppressor use out to 100yds OR a 110gr Barnes at 2400fps to cover at least 200, if not 250yds. What's wrong with that?
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CoalTrain49
Member
I think you have to look at this cartridge popularity thing from the rifle and ammo mfg. perspective and not an individual perspective. They build rifles and ammo for what they think is popular or what might become popular. One of the reasons 5.56x45, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 is offered by most companies is they know people shoot it. When I go to the range that brass is laying around everywhere. I know how much .308 brass costs but I still find several dozen cases everytime I go.
Every other cartridge is a gamble. 300 BLK isn't a good bet and neither is 6.5 Creedmoor mostly because shooters want cheap ammo and cheap rifles. Personally, I wouldn't consider buying either one because ammo will always be expensive and neither one will be able to do much of anything a 7.62x39 or a 7.62x51 can't do. 6.5mm is a Euro caliber and always will be. How many cartridges can the industry support? My guess is probably about three for longer than a few years.
Every other cartridge is a gamble. 300 BLK isn't a good bet and neither is 6.5 Creedmoor mostly because shooters want cheap ammo and cheap rifles. Personally, I wouldn't consider buying either one because ammo will always be expensive and neither one will be able to do much of anything a 7.62x39 or a 7.62x51 can't do. 6.5mm is a Euro caliber and always will be. How many cartridges can the industry support? My guess is probably about three for longer than a few years.
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If a person reloads 300 Blackout is an extremely cheap to shoot proposition, with the prevalence of powder coated lead bullets and it's efficient use of powder, not to mention basically free brass I can load 300 Blackout for not much more than I can 357 mag or 9mm.
I don't get this sentiment that's akin to saying I'm gonna get a 454 Casull to replace my 9mm.
CoalTrain49
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That's coming from a reloaders perspective. If all rifle and ammo companies did was cater to reloaders they would all go broke pronto. Same holds true for varmint hunters, deer hunters and bench rest shooters as individual marketing segments. The money is in cheap rifles that use cheap factory ammo. AR's, AK's, cheap bolt guns that shoot that cheap 4moa ammo. Most people can't afford to buy a 1K rifle and shoot ammo that costs 0.50/rd. That's why you see buckets of steel cases at the range.
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it makes sense in the context that the .454 is a MUCH better hunting cartridge than the 9mm. Were talking a different intended usage than what the original design called for. The 300AAC wasnt intended to be a big game hunting round, as far as i can tell from original press and information. The 9mm is also not intended as a hunting round, tho i do know guys who use and like both.
Another possible analogy would be comparing a full short action .300 to 9mm being fired from a 8" large frame revolver. which i must admit actually sounds like fun.
im pretty sure there will be enough lasting interest in the .300aac, the 6.5CM, the 6.8, the grendel, the, the, the....to keep them available for some time to come, and even if they arnt the guys that like them will have NO issues reloading for them.
Once again, at the end of the day if you like a particular round, i see no reason not to get into it...heck right now im trying to get a 250 savage AI, how off the wall is that compared to what were talking about.
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eastbank
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any of the three calibers i mentioned will go well beyond 300 yrds to kill big game animals with out a big hold over and give the energy needed for clean kills and the rifle with not be any heavier(maybe a few ozs at most) or longer than the rem md 7 in 300bk. if the bk will shoot a 110gr bullet at 2400fps, what would be bad about the same bullet going over 3000fps fps or a 190gr bullet at about 2400fps? eastbank.
That's because reloaders pick up most of the brass.
Yeah, but a 454 Casull makes a poor CCW.
I guess my problem is I bought my Blackout knowing dang good and well I was not getting a 400 yard deer rifle, that I was getting the ultimate long range pistol caliber carbine.
Which is exactly what its best at. Nothing wrong with that. Especially if it fills other roles like a short range game taker for the guys who really like ars.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
If you read the thread you might have gained a little perspective into what the cartridges can do that the others can't.
As far as ammo costs, anything going up against the 5.56, 7.62x39 or .308 is going to lose. So there's no reason to even go there. That said, "cheap" .300BO is about $13 a box and that's not bad. The 6.5 is higher but it was never intended to be a cheap plinking round. Its claim to fame is long range precision and efficiency. Not economy. Even so, the 6.5 has a good foothold, from the old 6.5x55Swede to the .260 and Creedmoor. Components are plentiful and no more expensive than anything else of comparable dimensions.
The cynicism of shooters never ceases to amaze me.
CoalTrain49
Member
I did read it.
Nothing new under the sun there. The 300 BLK is just a niche cartridge for the AR as it has some cartridge limitations. Creedmoor has won some matches so I guess it should be classified as a excellent benchrest cartridge along with a few others. At least that one has some utility as a pretty good long range hunting cartridge. I could see myself with one of those but truly would rather just skip the drama and shoot a .308 or .223.
Some people buy a new rifle for every new cartridge that comes along. Just a marketing ploy that seems to sell rifles and ammo.....for awhile.
Marketing 101. The list of failed cartridges is long....very long.
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And very, very interesting. I also like a 7mm belted magnum so what do i knowSome people buy a new rifle for every new cartridge that comes along. Just a marketing ploy that seems to sell rifles and ammo.....for awhile.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
If there's nothing new under the sun, then surely you can name pre-existing factory cartridges that filled the same roles as the two in question.I did read it.
Nothing new under the sun there. The 300 BLK is just a niche cartridge for the AR as it has some cartridge limitations. Creedmoor has won some matches so I guess it should be classified as a excellent benchrest cartridge along with a few others. At least that one has some utility as a pretty good long range hunting cartridge. I could see myself with one of those but truly would rather just skip the drama and shoot a .308 or .223.
Some people buy a new rifle for every new cartridge that comes along. Just a marketing ploy that seems to sell rifles and ammo.....for awhile.
The .300 is a niche cartridge but it's one that does have something to offer. As has already been covered, its dual purpose cannot be matched by other cartridges. YOU may not have a need for what it offers but others might. It's not new either, just the near 30yr old .300Whisper with a new name.
"Won some matches"? That's an understatement. As I've said numerous times, the Creedmoor cartridges have taken over the long range precision rifle game. The .308 is barely represented.
I'm not quite sure what drama you're referring to. I ordered dies, brass and bullets. Got my powder locally. No different than I would've done for any other cartridge I didn't already shoot or load for.
So I guess everybody who buys a rifle chambered in a newer cartridge MUST be doing so because they're duped by marketing, huh? Couldn't possibly be anything else? Yes, the list of failed cartridges is quite long and much of that is due to attitude of closed-minded shooters. Those who decry anything and everything new. That list has some duds but it is also full of great cartridges that died because people didn't buy them, not because they were a bad idea. I couldn't give a crap less about marketing. I judge based on merit, not hype. I decided to buy a 6.5Creedmoor specifically for long range shooting at a local 1200yd facility, because it's a better cartridge for the purpose than the .308. It shoots flatter, drifts less, carries further and recoils less. All quantifiable factors.
After all this discussion, I'm still waiting for someone to point out exactly what marketing we're supposed to have fallen for???
CoalTrain49
Member
And very, very interesting. I also like a 7mm belted magnum so what do i know
I had one of those years ago. I remember when they first hit the scene. It was the first new rifle I purchased. Used to hunt with it in AZ. Killed on both ends.
Yeah the big 7s are about as much recoil as i like to tolerate.
CoalTrain49
Member
If there's nothing new under the sun, then surely you can name pre-existing factory cartridges that filled the same roles as the two in question.
The .300 is a niche cartridge but it's one that does have something to offer. As has already been covered, its dual purpose cannot be matched by other cartridges. YOU may not have a need for what it offers but others might. It's not new either, just the near 30yr old .300Whisper with a new name.
"Won some matches"? That's an understatement. As I've said numerous times, the Creedmoor cartridges have taken over the long range precision rifle game. The .308 is barely represented.
I'm not quite sure what drama you're referring to. I ordered dies, brass and bullets. Got my powder locally. No different than I would've done for any other cartridge I didn't already shoot or load for.
So I guess everybody who buys a rifle chambered in a newer cartridge MUST be doing so because they're duped by marketing, huh? Couldn't possibly be anything else? Yes, the list of failed cartridges is quite long and much of that is due to attitude of closed-minded shooters. Those who decry anything and everything new. That list has some duds but it is also full of great cartridges that died because people didn't buy them, not because they were a bad idea. I couldn't give a crap less about marketing. I judge based on merit, not hype. I decided to buy a 6.5Creedmoor specifically for long range shooting at a local 1200yd facility, because it's a better cartridge for the purpose than the .308. It shoots flatter, drifts less, carries further and recoils less. All quantifiable factors.
After all this discussion, I'm still waiting for someone to point out exactly what marketing we're supposed to have fallen for???
I'm not sure what role you think those two cartridges are playing. Do cartridges have roles like actors or Barbie and Ken dolls. Is there a villain cartridge, a femme fatale cartridge and a hero cartridge in your production?
Ever heard of niche or special purpose marketing? The come on here is this one cartridge does this certain thing so much better than anything designed to date. Firearms and ammo manufacturers invent new cartridges to sell new rifles and ammo. The 6.5 Creedmoor should have been named the 6.5 Hornady. A bullet company developed it to sell more bullets to BR shooters. Of course the firearms mfg's will jump the shark along with Hornady. The 300 BLK was designed by a suppressor company to sell suppressors to the military. Nothing ballistically earth shattering there either.
Just two more cartridges for two more niches. Any day now I look for someone to develop the very best coyote cartridge the world has ever seen. Someone will build a rifle and someone will mfg ammo for it...for awhile.
There are plenty of them, the real trouble is the bullets going too fast or too slow or too little b.c.. we really just need the perfect coyote bullet.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Am I supposed to take crap like that seriously? You never answered my question. If "there is nothing new under the sun", then surely you can name cartridges that served the same PURPOSES as the two in question.
So you think competitors are using the 6.5 due to marketing? You think all those guys are using a cartridge they 'think' is better but really isn't? Wrong. They're using the 6.5 (Creedmoor and Lapua) because they shoot flatter and drift significantly less than the .308. They even have a slight advantage over the .300 magnums. With the huge advantage of not burning through barrels as fast or beating the hell out of the shooter. Not marketing, fact.
The .300Blackout was designed by JD Jones back in the 1990's as the .300Whisper. It was designed to perform a certain task and that task was not to sell suppressors.
So do you think that innovation should be stalled because a guy who goes by "CoalTrain49" thinks he has everything he needs already? Or maybe it's just easier to arbitrarily dismiss everything new as "marketing" because then you don't have to actually use deductive reasoning to determine whether something has a useful purpose? Let alone actually accept the fact that some folks may have different needs from your own?
I would say the push for 6.5CM is that it can be chambered in any rifle the popular .308 winchester can be chambered in, including the .308 ARs, and it does for the AR-10 platform what the 6.5 rounds in the AR-15 platform did, give longer range precision. In bolt actions I think what it does is less significant because there is other rounds that are very similar. But it is still just as viable even though it has more competition.
Personally I don't see it as gaining enough BC and reduced drop at range over the .308 to be worth the higher cost and lower energy, but then I don't compete at long range shooting.
The .300BO is an AR-15 platform round meant for duel jobs of suppression and supersonic performance almost on par with 7.62x39 but in an AR platform using magazines that feed well. This means you can load different magazines one for suppressed and one for supersonic, and do a lot of short range roles. Silencers being so restricted makes one of those roles less valuable, and with most users having merely the supersonic benefit it ceases to be better than some other options.
The popularity of the AR platform is driving these cartridges, but they are getting chambered in other guns as well.
Personally I don't see it as gaining enough BC and reduced drop at range over the .308 to be worth the higher cost and lower energy, but then I don't compete at long range shooting.
The .300BO is an AR-15 platform round meant for duel jobs of suppression and supersonic performance almost on par with 7.62x39 but in an AR platform using magazines that feed well. This means you can load different magazines one for suppressed and one for supersonic, and do a lot of short range roles. Silencers being so restricted makes one of those roles less valuable, and with most users having merely the supersonic benefit it ceases to be better than some other options.
The popularity of the AR platform is driving these cartridges, but they are getting chambered in other guns as well.
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