GunAdmirer
Member
What is the military's specifications for their 9mm ammunition?
Weight and profile of bullet?
Feet per second?
Weight and profile of bullet?
Feet per second?
9mm Military Ammo Specifications?
- Thread starter GunAdmirer
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I can't seem to find all the specs for the SMG ammo...
Here are the specs for US M882 9mm ball (suitable for use in the M9 as well as in most subguns):
Cartridge designation: US M882 ball
Cartridge OAL:1.165inches or 29.591mm
Powder used: HPC-26
Powder weight used: 6.0 grains
Case Mouth Pressure: 31,175psi (avg), 36,250psi (max)
Bullet weight: 112 grains
Bullet length: .610 inches or 15.494mm
Bullet velocity: 1263fps measured @ 15 feet
Let me know if you want the proof loads for the M9 posted, that's a heck of an eye opener... even the 5.56 proof load is an eye opener
Here are the specs for US M882 9mm ball (suitable for use in the M9 as well as in most subguns):
Cartridge designation: US M882 ball
Cartridge OAL:1.165inches or 29.591mm
Powder used: HPC-26
Powder weight used: 6.0 grains
Case Mouth Pressure: 31,175psi (avg), 36,250psi (max)
Bullet weight: 112 grains
Bullet length: .610 inches or 15.494mm
Bullet velocity: 1263fps measured @ 15 feet
Let me know if you want the proof loads for the M9 posted, that's a heck of an eye opener... even the 5.56 proof load is an eye opener
GunAdmirer
Member
Wow that was some detailed information! Thank you.
I guess I was wondering if the bullets were 115, 124 or 147 grain traveling at 1150 fps or so. That is, what round/load is closest to the military 9mm issue ammo used in the Beretta M-9s?
I guess I was wondering if the bullets were 115, 124 or 147 grain traveling at 1150 fps or so. That is, what round/load is closest to the military 9mm issue ammo used in the Beretta M-9s?
Any NATO spec ammo will be hot, equivalent to +P or +P+. It should have the NATO "cross" on the headstamp if its actually NATO spec, so it's easy to look for and confirm.
Regular WWB 115grn FMJs move out at 1190fps (according to Winchester), probably as close as you can get without going to a high pressure loading.
I believe most NATO countries use the 115 or 124 grain bullets (none heavier), but couldn't tell you for 100% sure.
Regular WWB 115grn FMJs move out at 1190fps (according to Winchester), probably as close as you can get without going to a high pressure loading.
I believe most NATO countries use the 115 or 124 grain bullets (none heavier), but couldn't tell you for 100% sure.
Jeff Timm
Member
I hate to disagree with Antarti but, "Any NATO spec ammo will be hot, equivalent to +P or +P+. It should have the NATO "cross" on the headstamp if its actually NATO spec, so it's easy to look for and confirm."
Not true. NATO spec ammo is about the same as any 124 gr ball round loaded to SAAMI standards.
Now, the Swedes used a 145 gr ball round in their K type Subguns which had similar velocity to other countries 115 gr ball rounds. That is HOT.
Interesting info from the Government, note the amount over five years.
"ITEM: 9mm Ball, DODIC A363, NSN 1305-01-172-9558
General Information
Document Type: SRCSGT
Posted Date: May 03, 2005
Category: Ammunition and Explosives
Set Aside: N/A
Contracting Office Address
U.S. Army Field Support Command, ATTN: AMSFS-CCA, Rock Island, IL 61299-6500
Description
MARKET SURVEY AND REQUEST FOR INFORMATION: Information is being collected for market survey purposes and not as a request for proposal or as an obligation on part of the Government (USG). The USG does not intend to award a contract on the basis of t his survey and will not pay for information solicited. Please identify proprietary information. All submitted information will be retained in the Contract Office as market research but will not be released to the public. ITEM: 9mm Ball, DODIC A363, NSN 1305-01-172-9558. This round has a 124 grain Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) projectile used for anti-personnel and training. The cartridges are packed in 50 round cardboard cartons, M2A1 ammunition boxes, then wire bound boxes. While there are no firm require ments at this time, the requirement could be for approximately 239,000,000 rounds over five years. The USG has no intention of waiving any technical data package requirements and does not intend to provide any GFM (Government Furnished Materials). The Arm y Field Support Command is seeking sources capable of meeting subject requirements. Interested sources should submit concept papers outlining its capabilities to meet the Armys potential requirements. Concept papers should identify business structure, s ize and status, production capabilities (equipment, technical, production rate capabilities identifying minimum and maximums, quality system utilized, etc.) and past experience with same or similar items. NLT COB 16 May 2005, interested sources should E-M ail concept papers to [email protected], or mailed to SFSJM-LGI, Attention of Bruce Kellums, 1 Rock Island Arsenal, Building 350, 5th Floor, Pillar E12, Rock Island, IL 61299-6000. Direct all questions to Bruce Kellums (309) 782-0089, FAX (309) 78 2-2083. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THIS SURVEY.
Original Point of Contact
Place of Performance
Address:
U.S. Army Field Support Command ATTN: AMSFS-CCA-F Rock Island IL
61299-6500, US"
Hummm, don't think my Dillon can handle it.
Geoff
Who thinks that's a LOT of ammo!
Not true. NATO spec ammo is about the same as any 124 gr ball round loaded to SAAMI standards.
Now, the Swedes used a 145 gr ball round in their K type Subguns which had similar velocity to other countries 115 gr ball rounds. That is HOT.
Interesting info from the Government, note the amount over five years.
"ITEM: 9mm Ball, DODIC A363, NSN 1305-01-172-9558
General Information
Document Type: SRCSGT
Posted Date: May 03, 2005
Category: Ammunition and Explosives
Set Aside: N/A
Contracting Office Address
U.S. Army Field Support Command, ATTN: AMSFS-CCA, Rock Island, IL 61299-6500
Description
MARKET SURVEY AND REQUEST FOR INFORMATION: Information is being collected for market survey purposes and not as a request for proposal or as an obligation on part of the Government (USG). The USG does not intend to award a contract on the basis of t his survey and will not pay for information solicited. Please identify proprietary information. All submitted information will be retained in the Contract Office as market research but will not be released to the public. ITEM: 9mm Ball, DODIC A363, NSN 1305-01-172-9558. This round has a 124 grain Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) projectile used for anti-personnel and training. The cartridges are packed in 50 round cardboard cartons, M2A1 ammunition boxes, then wire bound boxes. While there are no firm require ments at this time, the requirement could be for approximately 239,000,000 rounds over five years. The USG has no intention of waiving any technical data package requirements and does not intend to provide any GFM (Government Furnished Materials). The Arm y Field Support Command is seeking sources capable of meeting subject requirements. Interested sources should submit concept papers outlining its capabilities to meet the Armys potential requirements. Concept papers should identify business structure, s ize and status, production capabilities (equipment, technical, production rate capabilities identifying minimum and maximums, quality system utilized, etc.) and past experience with same or similar items. NLT COB 16 May 2005, interested sources should E-M ail concept papers to [email protected], or mailed to SFSJM-LGI, Attention of Bruce Kellums, 1 Rock Island Arsenal, Building 350, 5th Floor, Pillar E12, Rock Island, IL 61299-6000. Direct all questions to Bruce Kellums (309) 782-0089, FAX (309) 78 2-2083. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THIS SURVEY.
Original Point of Contact
Place of Performance
Address:
U.S. Army Field Support Command ATTN: AMSFS-CCA-F Rock Island IL
61299-6500, US"
Hummm, don't think my Dillon can handle it.
Geoff
Who thinks that's a LOT of ammo!
Jeff Timm
Member
From IMI: http://www.imisammo.co.il/10111.htm
9mm BALL NATO 115 GR. - NATO QUALIFIED
The IMI 9mm BALL NATO 115 GR cartridge meets all STANAG 4090 requirements. Certified as NATO Qualified in 1999 with NATO DESIGN AC/116-XIIA, this 9mm round is characterized by reliability and accuracy. Sold to armies around the world.
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
PARAMETERS
CATALOG NO. 10-111-A
BULLET WEIGHT 115 GRAIN 7.45 GRAM
BULLET TYPE
BALL
*MUZZLE VELOCITY(V16m) 1280 FT/SEC 390 M/SEC
*MUZZLE ENERGY 417 FT-LBS 567 JOULES
*PRESSURE:
MAXIMUM PROBABLE
MAXIMUM INDIVIDUAL
230 MPa
265 MPa
2340 KG/CM�
2700 KG/CM�
PENETRATION & ACCURACY
I.A.W. STANAG 4090
* TESTED WITH 7.85" EPVAT BARREL.
# THIS CARTRIDGE COMPLIES WITH STANAG 4090
A difference from the US M882 No?
Geoff
Who notes the STANAG has to do with fit and function so the rounds can be put in any nations 9mm weapon and it will work the action and put a round down range.
9mm BALL NATO 115 GR. - NATO QUALIFIED
The IMI 9mm BALL NATO 115 GR cartridge meets all STANAG 4090 requirements. Certified as NATO Qualified in 1999 with NATO DESIGN AC/116-XIIA, this 9mm round is characterized by reliability and accuracy. Sold to armies around the world.
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
PARAMETERS
CATALOG NO. 10-111-A
BULLET WEIGHT 115 GRAIN 7.45 GRAM
BULLET TYPE
BALL
*MUZZLE VELOCITY(V16m) 1280 FT/SEC 390 M/SEC
*MUZZLE ENERGY 417 FT-LBS 567 JOULES
*PRESSURE:
MAXIMUM PROBABLE
MAXIMUM INDIVIDUAL
230 MPa
265 MPa
2340 KG/CM�
2700 KG/CM�
PENETRATION & ACCURACY
I.A.W. STANAG 4090
* TESTED WITH 7.85" EPVAT BARREL.
# THIS CARTRIDGE COMPLIES WITH STANAG 4090
A difference from the US M882 No?
Geoff
Who notes the STANAG has to do with fit and function so the rounds can be put in any nations 9mm weapon and it will work the action and put a round down range.
Not much diff...
Jeff, I just don't see much difference between the Israeli NATO export load and our M882..
IMI Pressures work out to: 33275psi (avg), 38394psi (max) using Kg/Cm, a tiny bit higher using KiloPascals.
The proof load for the M9 is right at 50,000 psi , so no troubles there, although there's about 4% less safety reserve with the IMI ammo...
The bullet weight is identical.
Bullet speeds are within easy range, considering that the IMI round was tested with a 7+ inch barrel. Also, I dont see distance from muzzle where the measurement was taken.
I must be missing something, or the question was a rhetorical one...
Jeff, I just don't see much difference between the Israeli NATO export load and our M882..
IMI Pressures work out to: 33275psi (avg), 38394psi (max) using Kg/Cm, a tiny bit higher using KiloPascals.
The proof load for the M9 is right at 50,000 psi
, so no troubles there, although there's about 4% less safety reserve with the IMI ammo...The bullet weight is identical.
Bullet speeds are within easy range, considering that the IMI round was tested with a 7+ inch barrel. Also, I dont see distance from muzzle where the measurement was taken.
I must be missing something, or the question was a rhetorical one...
From Cartridges of the World, 9th Edition page 482:
Cartridge, Caliber 9mm Ball, NATO, M882
Weapon: Pistol, Automatic, Cal 9mm, M9, M11
Velocity: 1251 +/-25 fps at 16 meters
Pressure: 27,000 psi, max. avg.
Cartridge: 179 gr.
Case: 42 gr.
Bullet: 124 gr Copper Alloy
Propellant:
Brand: HPC 26
Type: Double Base Flake
Weight: 5 gr. 6 gr.
Point Ident: Plain Tip
Cartridge, Caliber 9mm Ball, NATO, M882
Weapon: Pistol, Automatic, Cal 9mm, M9, M11
Velocity: 1251 +/-25 fps at 16 meters
Pressure: 27,000 psi, max. avg.
Cartridge: 179 gr.
Case: 42 gr.
Bullet: 124 gr Copper Alloy
Propellant:
Brand: HPC 26
Type: Double Base Flake
Weight: 5 gr. 6 gr.
Point Ident: Plain Tip
Jeff Timm
Member
Antarti: "Jeff, I just don't see much difference between the Israeli NATO export load and our M882."
The advertisement for the M882 calls for a 124 gr ball projectile, the IMI load makes NATO standard with a 115 gr ball round.
Geoff
Who has been unable to find the M882 spec or the NATO STANAG spec on line.
Hidden cost of contracting out you have to pay a fortune to get Government Standards, which should cost NOTHING!
The advertisement for the M882 calls for a 124 gr ball projectile, the IMI load makes NATO standard with a 115 gr ball round.
Geoff
Who has been unable to find the M882 spec or the NATO STANAG spec on line.
Hidden cost of contracting out you have to pay a fortune to get Government Standards, which should cost NOTHING! GunAdmirer
Member
I just got an email from a friend who was on a National Guard pistol team. He took a round apart once with a bullet puller and found that it was 124 grains.
Believe whatever you want to believe....
I referenced the following:
Army Technical Manual TM-43-0001-27
Army Ammunition Data Sheets
Small Caliber Ammunition
FSC 1305
Chapter 12
Cartridge 9mm, Ball, NATO, M882
Type was classified in April 1985
Listed before this round is a subgun round which is 124 grains @1190fps minimum (1280fps max). Max pressure is 43,000 psi. Headstamp is RA 77.
And yes, I found this online quite a while ago. I think some reloading sites now sell them ($10-$15) along with milsurp components for those looking to duplicate military loads. Covers 5x45,.32 acp, .38Special, 9mm, .45ACP, .30 carbine, 7.62x51 NATO, .30-06, .50BMG, etc. up to 20mm ammo.
Includes all tracer, AP, API, match, and proof loads. Very handy thing to have.
Edit-> I would be happy to send a copy if anybody wants one... better yet one of the moderators could request it and make it a sticky, I'm sure the match loads would interest people. Of course, some nut might want to shoot proof rounds for fun, and cause himself or his weapon considerable distress...
I referenced the following:
Army Technical Manual TM-43-0001-27
Army Ammunition Data Sheets
Small Caliber Ammunition
FSC 1305
Chapter 12
Cartridge 9mm, Ball, NATO, M882
Type was classified in April 1985
Listed before this round is a subgun round which is 124 grains @1190fps minimum (1280fps max). Max pressure is 43,000 psi. Headstamp is RA 77.
And yes, I found this online quite a while ago. I think some reloading sites now sell them ($10-$15) along with milsurp components for those looking to duplicate military loads. Covers 5x45,.32 acp, .38Special, 9mm, .45ACP, .30 carbine, 7.62x51 NATO, .30-06, .50BMG, etc. up to 20mm ammo.
Includes all tracer, AP, API, match, and proof loads. Very handy thing to have.
Edit-> I would be happy to send a copy if anybody wants one... better yet one of the moderators could request it and make it a sticky, I'm sure the match loads would interest people. Of course, some nut might want to shoot proof rounds for fun, and cause himself or his weapon considerable distress...
Last edited:
Jeff Timm
Member
antari: Thanks, that looks like a good source. Not to mention an excuse for a gun show trip.
Crazy about the difference in bullet weights.
Geoff
Who likes 115 gr 9mm, usually with a Silvertip (TM)
Crazy about the difference in bullet weights.
Geoff
Who likes 115 gr 9mm, usually with a Silvertip (TM)
Jeff Timm
Member
A quick search yielded, http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM43-0001-27.pdf
Geoff
Who had to make a quick trip to Cleveland and back. I'm here. It's not home.
Geoff
Who had to make a quick trip to Cleveland and back. I'm here. It's not home.
Jeff,
The bullet weight thing isn't so crazy. The TM may show an older load, but I would expect that if they changed bullet weights that they might change the designation.
Then again, I'm not a veteran nor arsenal worker, so what I do I know about their classification systems could fit on the head of a pin, with room for another pin's head left over.
The bullet weight thing isn't so crazy. The TM may show an older load, but I would expect that if they changed bullet weights that they might
change the designation.Then again, I'm not a veteran nor arsenal worker, so what I do I know about their classification systems could fit on the head of a pin, with room for another pin's head left over.
Jeff Timm
Member
Many many moons ago...
I got a US Army Ordnance Corps briefing on NATO STANAGS. Essentially, when it came to ammunition they were more worried about functioning in any NATO weapon using that round, not being picky about bullet weight and such. i.e. 147 gr to 155 gr bullets in 7.62 NATO.
For what it's worth, Winchester 9mm NATO comes with a 124 gr bullet, and Winchester White Box 100s come in both 115 and 124. I prefer the 115 ball for practice because I use a 115 Hollow point for defense.
I wonder if they use Submachine Gun barrel length for the velocity tests?
Geoff
Who notes the IAI reference above.
I got a US Army Ordnance Corps briefing on NATO STANAGS. Essentially, when it came to ammunition they were more worried about functioning in any NATO weapon using that round, not being picky about bullet weight and such. i.e. 147 gr to 155 gr bullets in 7.62 NATO.
For what it's worth, Winchester 9mm NATO comes with a 124 gr bullet, and Winchester White Box 100s come in both 115 and 124. I prefer the 115 ball for practice because I use a 115 Hollow point for defense.
I wonder if they use Submachine Gun barrel length for the velocity tests?
Geoff
Who notes the IAI reference above.
BushyGuy
Member
i bought a box of IMI 115 gr fmj 9mm bullets for 17.95 at a gun shop. what it the ballastics for those bullets i never heard of them or cant find much info on these bullets i want to do more research before i shoot it out of my Taurus PT92 C 9mm. those bullets are made from Israel. it says UZI 9mm (parabellum) on the box.
freakshow10mm
member
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239 million rounds is only 4 million per month or 5456 rounds per hour. A single CamDex can load 4,000 rounds per hour so 2-3 of those making 8-12,000 per hour should be able to handle it no problem.
Bighouse Doc
Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2007
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Chrono data for Blazer Brass 9mm 115gr FMJ:
CZ75 Clone Test Firearm.
Avg: 1088
Hi: 1110
Low: 1067
SD: 11
CZ75 Clone Test Firearm.
Avg: 1088
Hi: 1110
Low: 1067
SD: 11
The attached file is a scan from Janes Small Arms and Ammunition. The NATO "standard" is highlighted. Different loads are used by various militaries of the world. You'll need to convert the metric 2,050 kg/cm sq to English 29,158 PSI to get a comparison to US but you will find that it falls within SAAMI specifications for standard 9mm pressure.
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My(2)Cents
Member
I work in an armory for the Marines and this data is right from a shipping document:
Military 9mm Data
Federal Cartridge Company
Charge Weight 4.55 gr
Muzzle Velocity 1000 fps
Propellant BE84 Hercules 1991
Primer No 205 Federal
Pressure 33,000 to 38,500 Max avg CUPS
this is not a guess it is the exact specs.
Military 9mm Data
Federal Cartridge Company
Charge Weight 4.55 gr
Muzzle Velocity 1000 fps
Propellant BE84 Hercules 1991
Primer No 205 Federal
Pressure 33,000 to 38,500 Max avg CUPS
this is not a guess it is the exact specs.
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