Some of us are loading .358 boolits in 9mm.
9mm not enough taper crimp
- Thread starter Zendude
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Some of us are loading .358 boolits in 9mm.
kmw1954
Member
My whole point and the irony behind it.
In one instance, the Carbide FCD, the comment "What did they do before?" And many back it up that it's not needed, doesn't work, or is a Band aide for poor workmanship.
Yet as you bring up the point from my comment of it's "been done that way forever" there is now a "better way". I have a hard time differentiating between the two statements. I guess one way is a "better way" and the other isn't yet people claim both work.
Personally it makes no difference to me which way someone does either. It all comes down to what works for you and are you comfortable with doing it. I happen to do it with the CFCD and also as a single step with just one die. I tried the two step way a few times and couldn't see any difference.
It's not always the "stuck in the past" thinking when someone mentions what was used years ago. Many times the "new, modern, improved" methods or tools ain't. The "what did they use before..." question is used when referring to a tool that offers no improvement over "old school", tried and true, used for many bizillions of rounds methods/tools. I don't remember what RCBS die instructions said in 1980 and all the handgun die sets I purchase today are 3 die sets and I purchase a 4th die for crimping as I prefer Redding and Lee collet crimp dies over most stock roll or taper crimp dies. I started reloading with a Lee Loader and the seating/crimping was actually two steps and with my first die set ('71) I had too much trouble with trying to seat a bullet and crimp is simultaneously, so I separated the steps. I still separate seating/crimping even when using a single stage (it is much easier with a turret or my current press, a Co-Ax. but the press is not the reason to keep steps separate). I started separating the steps in 1971 and still do today as I feel I have more control of both steps and I prefer some after market crimping dies over stock seating/crimping dies and several years ago I tried an FCD, out of curiosity about a "new, improved method" and it now resides in a landfill somewhere in So. Oregon...
MeanBean
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No problem.
Pre-resize your brass and prime separately and you can use your 3 station Pro 1000 with FCD:
Ta da!
- Station #1 - Flare case mouth and powder charge
- Station #2 - Seat bullet
- Station #3 - Taper crimp/FCD
And using pre-resized brass makes progressive reloading silky smooth with minimal effort and even produce more consistent OAL of .001" variance from less shellplate deflection - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...progressive-press.833604/page-2#post-10779806
I do this with my 10mm and .40s&w on my pro 1000. I resize and prime on my RCBS turret press, then load up the collator on the Pro 1000 with the primed cases. It does put the bullet seating position at the back of the press, and it's a little awkward. But if you remove the primer arm, it's not so bad.
As for 9mm, I just use my 3 Lee dies.
Consider belling the case less or adjusting the seating die down slightly, but raise your seating stem otherwise your OAL will be shorter than intended. It just takes time and a little fiddling. I've never used a FCD on my 9mm.
And as tedious as it may be, I plunk test EVERY round in the most finnicky chamber of the of the caliber I'm loading. I have a Lyman 8 hole case gauge, but I typically just use it to check resized brass.. especially .40..
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rfwobbly
Member
So, Mr Zen. Did you ever get your problem resolved ?
LiveLife
Member
Same here, my Factory Crimp Dies sit lonely in the die boxes.
Even when I was reloading USPSA match rounds, I did not use the FCD for my 9mm/40S&W/45ACP rounds, even for my tight match barrels.
Why?
I didn't need to as finished rounds fell in the chamber with a "plonk". I found the reasons why some would not "plonk" was due to out-of-round finished rounds from tilted bullets, flare not returned flat on bullet base, out-of-round bullet base, inconsistent case wall thickness, oversized bullets along with "stacking" of tolerances of these variables.
When I was being taught by my bullseye match shooting mentor, I asked him what to do with the FCD ... he just smiled and shook his head and told me to keep the FCD in the die box (Round die/turret holder back then, not the flat die boxes). Besides his Pro 1000 he was teaching me on (Yup, bullseye match shooter using Pro 1000 for match loads
), his Dillon 550 did not come with a FCD. (Imagine that )
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kmw1954
Member
mdi, we have conversed over this a number of times before so I fully am aware of your position and I understand the reason behind it and how firmly you adhere to it. It's not my place to tell you that you are right or wrong as what you practice works very well for you. But that's not to say that someone that is doing it differently is wrong either. At the same time I'm not going to tell someone that doing it differently than I am that they are wasting their time and money either.
I have tried seating and crimping both ways and for me I found no advantage to adding an extra step and more time to complete my work, I am quite comfortable with using just the three dies and I can produce very fine and accurate ammunition that way. Now if I were using a four position press I might feel differently. Again that's not to say that the new way isn't a better. Then again I do have and use a Lee Carbide FCD that I use for my 45acp loading and again that is solely because of one problematic pistol. If not for that one gun I wouldn't have the FCD.
Back a few posts ago Live Life posted how to use the FCD in the Pro1000 by moving the de-priming/sizing to a separate operation. Again I had tried that and just could never get use to it. It to me felt awkward and out of rhythm, completely out of sequence. I found it very disruptive and had to go back to my old way.
This is also kind of like a discussion I was having with someone about this problematic 45acp and was told I needed to get rid of that pc.- o - crap gun and get a 1911. To me that was a poor solution to a problem and didn't remedy the issue.
Again, take care my friend. Stay safe and away from the infected!
I have tried seating and crimping both ways and for me I found no advantage to adding an extra step and more time to complete my work, I am quite comfortable with using just the three dies and I can produce very fine and accurate ammunition that way. Now if I were using a four position press I might feel differently. Again that's not to say that the new way isn't a better. Then again I do have and use a Lee Carbide FCD that I use for my 45acp loading and again that is solely because of one problematic pistol. If not for that one gun I wouldn't have the FCD.
Back a few posts ago Live Life posted how to use the FCD in the Pro1000 by moving the de-priming/sizing to a separate operation. Again I had tried that and just could never get use to it. It to me felt awkward and out of rhythm, completely out of sequence. I found it very disruptive and had to go back to my old way.
This is also kind of like a discussion I was having with someone about this problematic 45acp and was told I needed to get rid of that pc.- o - crap gun and get a 1911. To me that was a poor solution to a problem and didn't remedy the issue.
Again, take care my friend. Stay safe and away from the infected!
Reloading is sorta like putting one's pants on. We may have different methods/styles but the end result is we are dressed. Personally I don't care what tools anyone uses for reloading, but on forums I am very concerned about what a new reloader may see and try to put into practice. What if a new reloader only saw posts from people that seat and crimp in one operation? If the new reloader was having problems with the simultaneous operation, but only got info from those that use the method, he may not know there are viable methods, used by many, that will relieve his problem, and struggle endlessly. The same with a Lee FCD. If the only info was from users of the FCD, he may not find out how to reload without any chambering problems. Suggesting to a new reloader to "fix" his chambering problems by just hiding the problem rather than finding out why it is happening and how to really fix it, is truly a disservice to him. I have been reloading successfully for many years and I don't have anything to suggest to an experienced reloader, but I can and do offer information, and my long term experiences to new reloaders to give them the opportunity to see other, and often proven methods he may use.
kmw1954
Member
mdi I can see tat point made clearly in your posts and I agree that the ones that are starting out need to know both sides honestly and the reasoning for the different practices. I am in full agreement that a new reloader should learn how to trouble shoot a problem other than going to what you refer to as a Band Aide. And I do believe some do use it that way. I went to the Lee Carbide FCD as a last solution other than sending the gun barrel out to be altered.
This could also extent to the subject of wet tumbling vs. dry, priming on the press vs. priming separate, using a single stage press vs. a turret or progressive, lead bullets vs. plated vs. jacketed.
As you just stated there are many different ways to complete the same task. The new loader should look at all of them and try to understand the differences. The person just starting in my opinion just can't ask enough questions.
This could also extent to the subject of wet tumbling vs. dry, priming on the press vs. priming separate, using a single stage press vs. a turret or progressive, lead bullets vs. plated vs. jacketed.
As you just stated there are many different ways to complete the same task. The new loader should look at all of them and try to understand the differences. The person just starting in my opinion just can't ask enough questions.
I’m new enough at this to not understand why newbies should avoid the FCD. What’s the issue?
Don't you find the Lyman case gauge to be more conservative than your chamber? I've got rounds that pass the plunk test in several different chambers, but are tight in the Lyman.
If you're loading lead or plated bullets the CARBIDE FCD will swage the bullets down and cause you no end of grief. Also they promote sloppy reloading practices.
kmw1954
Member
When I first started back in the hobby my only pistol was a Taurus PT92C and that is what I was loading to. A bit later my wife bought her first pistol, a Springfield XD Mod2 9mm. We ran a 100 round box of factory thru it first to break it in. Then we/I tried my reloads in it, nothing special just 115gr Berry's RN and it wouldn't go completely into batter so we gave up and went home.
Back at the bench I finally determined that the Taurus chamber was bigger than the XD and that I needed to tighten up the crimp. Just 1/4 turn down and everything was perfect! From then on all my plunk tests were done on the XD. We now have a number of other 9mm and the XD is still the tightest yet the HK VP9 will not cycle with loads that are at start levels. It likes them pumped up a couple tenths.
Swage the bullet and possibly cause too much crimp? Are some people just over crimping and not following the set up instructions? I’ve had good luck with FCD in aprox 1000 40s&w and 100 9mm so far.
kmw1954
Member
I look at the Carbide FCD as a Specialty Tool and does have a place but also believe it can be over used and under normal circumstances it is unnecessary. I currently load for 380acp, 9mm, 45acp and recently 38Spl. I only have one CFCD and that is for a 45acp that has an unordinary small chamber and leade. This is the only gun I have ever had a problem with. It is a 28yo pistol and I refuse to send it out to be "Repaired".
Blue68f100
Member
I'm old school and learned to hand load long before the internet was around. What I constantly see is that most use the LFCD to correct a problem. This is not what his tool was originally designed for. As stated it can cause more problems in not used correctly. I think it's best for the hand loader to take the time and diagnose the problem then correct the mistake(s). I still don't own a LFCD or a SB die.
I would heartily agree with this.
Using a FCD stalled my learning curve when I first started reloading. I really thought I was solving a problem and didn't realize I was just covering it up and ignoring a basic setup issue
Actually it is the opposite problem that it is causing. Swaging cast and plated bullets post-seating will often cause a loss of crimp and neck tension...which will often result in loss of accuracy, leading, and possibly bullet setback
OP
OP
Zendude
Member
I will do some measuring with calipers tomorrow to see if the case is out of spec either at the mouth or closer to the rim. I’ve made thousands of 9mm with these dies, so it must be a die out of adjustment - either the seating/de-flaring die or the sizing die.
CharliesHammer
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I also have a couple chambers that are tighter than Lyman case gauges.
MeanBean
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I got it as a gift for Christmas last year, so I found a use for it. The chamber of the particular gun I'm loading for is the best case guage. But it seems to work fine.
I do use it for 40s&w after resizing the cases. I use range brass, so I drop them in to make sure they drop all the way down. If they don't, they need the bulge buster at the bottom of the case.
Case gauges are generally manufactured to SAMMI minimum ...that way if it fits in the gauge, it should fit in any chamber
Want the blunt answer? A lot of individuals can't figure out how to adjust most dies that only due one thing, throw in a die that does 2 things at once and its a lost cause. Getting the crimp and seating depth set just right for a single pass through the die can be a real pain the first couple of times one tries to set up the dies and in this day and age of I can do no wrong so it must be the equipment die makers get the added profit of selling more dies because it just has to be the dies fault.
Now I admit that I like the Lee taper crimp die for crimping pistols and the Lee factory crimp die for a couple rifle rounds I crimp for just because there a lot easier to adjust especially on a progressive press but I started out many years ago seating and crimping in one step with RCBS dies. I own a couple Lee pistol factory crimp dies but in general I see no reason for this die as I don't have trouble with my cases being over sized in the first place.
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