9mm not enough taper crimp

[mljdeckard]

I have FCDs, and I have an extra station for them so I use them. I first brought up the idea in here and rcmodel (praise be unto his sainted name) chided me for it. I think that if the FCD wasn't an option, seating and crimping separately would probably have worked just as well. (But I like the FCDs.)

One concept that has been mentioned in here is sizing/de-capping separately, then doing everything else. I just seized a few thousand 9mms and I think this will be my running plan. Pretty much all me errors and glitches in running my Lee ALBP were because I was arguing with that first station and it made it harder to QC and observe the rest of the processes. I didn't WANT to do it in separate batches, that's the whole point of running a progressive, is to make the process more simple, but I think it will be far smoother overall to size separately.

 

[forrest r]

The lee fcd is a work-a-round to correct mistakes that their (lee) dies create, plain and simple.

Myself, I have no issues using lee dies and the reason I use them is because I really like their taper crimp dies!!!!!!!!! Everything else needs worked on. This is what I did to my set of 4-die set of the lee 9mm dies that I bought.

Sizing die:
As already mentioned, factory dies size the brass down way too much, the end result is the coke bottle/wasp waist/bullet base bulge in the case. Factory reloading dies unless specified are designed to be used with the shorter/smaller in diameter jacketed bullets. I own several firearms chambered in 9mm. I took 15/20 pieces of brass collected from range sessions from each firearm and measured the od at the case mouth & web for each firearm and recorded those #'s. I measured the od at the case mouth & web of the sized brass from the sized cases/lee sizing die. Found that the lee sizing die was sizing the brass down +/- 5/1000th's depending on the firearm for .355" bullets. I honed the sizing die out & now I get 2/1000th's to 3/1000th's neck tension for the .358" bullets that I use/cast/shoot.

Expander die:
Lee ought to be slapped for putting out such JUNK!!! Their expander die is the reason they came out with the fcd die, the fcd die corrects the problems the expander die creates. The lee expander dies are too short and funnel shaped. They do not expand the cases that the lee sizing die sized too small. Not going deep enough causes the bullet to expand the case as it's seated. It's takes more effort/pressure to seat that bullet and anything under pressure will go to the point of least resistance Instead of using the bullet for a bulldozer so it can get swaged down while seating, be seated crooked use the correct expander. A lee expander next to a custom expander I made for my 9mm's. As you can see I never bothered to use the lee expander for my 9mm reloads, I don't reload short bodied jacketed bullets.


If you think that lee expander goes all the way into the case when it expands them you better guess again. Take any of your lee expander dies apart and look at the high water mark/ring left by the mouth of the cases you expanded with it. They typically only go 1/2 way into the case because the funnel shape flares the case too much if you try to adjust the expander deeper. Typical high water marks on the lee funnel shaped expander.

The only reason the lee expander got used for my 45acp reloads is because I swaged several different styles of 165gr to 185gr jacketed bullets with huge hp's with a bullet diameter of .4505". What you want to use for an expander is 1 that has a long body and a shelf at the top. The long body expands the case deep enough to allow ease of seating (way less pressure) and protects the base of the bullet. The shelf at the top of the expander flares the case mouth just enough so the bullet sits square in the case and starts strait when seating.


Using these types of expanders corrects all the mistakes that the lee factory expander creates. That means there's no need for a lee fcd die to correct anything.

Seating die:
I seat & crimp in the same stage when I roll crimp. I seat and crimp in separate stages when I taper crimp. Seating in separate stages isn't necessary, I do it simply because it creates a more consistent accurate reload. Each reloader should try both ways and measure the oal of the reloads they created. Why do a plunk test if your reloads vary 15/1000th's + for their oal's. I've found that the bigger differences in the cases used ='s the bigger differences in the seating dies ability to make repeatable oal's. Seating & crimping in different stages also take out the compressing of the web area of the longer cases that happens on occasion.

Crimp die:
I love the lee crimp dies!!! They only crimp +/- 20/1000th's of the mouth of the cases. I typically use a 2/1000th's to 3/1000th's taper crimp on any ammo I use a taper crimp die on. The taper crimp aids in feeding and creates a small amount of hold on the bullet. This hold helps even out the short start pressure of the load. While using the same lot of brass/same number of firings doesn't show the results of mixed brass, the mixed brass does better with the crimp.

The green bullet is a typical 9mm bullet (125gr hp), the red bullet is actually a flat nosed hollow based bullet cast from a lyman mold. The bullet design of the red bullet 1st came out in 1900 and was designed for the 38lc. Both bullets are sized to .358" & loaded in 9mm cases with a 3/1000th's taper crimp. What you don't see is wasp waist, bullet bulge, the base of the bullet in the case, the bullet canted to 1 side, etc. Both those loads were developed to be used in a nm 1911 and will easily hold the x-ring/10-ring on the 50ft line & 50yd line.


Do yourself a huge favor, use an upgraded expander and you will find you'll have no need for the fcd die. Every time I get a fcd die I give them away.

 

[rfwobbly]

Swage the bullet and possibly cause too much crimp? Are some people just over crimping and not following the set up instructions? I’ve had good luck with FCD in aprox 1000 40s&w and 100 9mm so far.

The point is this... Based solely on the number of FCD questions posted here, your case is atypical. If your FCD works for you, then thank God in heaven and move on.

 

[rfwobbly]

For decades pistol dies were all sold as 3 die sets and the set-up directions never instructed to crimp in a separate step. Why is that?

For the simple reason that the Progressive press hadn't been invented. The need for "seating separately" is totally driven by the Progressive press.

 

[kmw1954]

For the simple reason that the Progressive press hadn't been invented. The need for "seating separately" is totally driven by the Progressive press.

I find that hard to believe being that I see so many reposes posted by users of turret presses and single stage presses touting the use of the two step seating and crimping solution. Yet again it is not my place to tell some one that what they are doing is wrong if it makes them feel more comfortable, either way.

 

[mdi]

Swage the bullet and possibly cause too much crimp? Are some people just over crimping and not following the set up instructions? I’ve had good luck with FCD in aprox 1000 40s&w and 100 9mm so far.

My first thought is your handloads are assembled properly, would fit the chamber(s) without the FCD.

 

[Hartkopf]

My first thought is your handloads are assembled properly, would fit the chamber(s) without the FCD.

I actually was having a problem getting enough neck tension with the standard Lee crimp die. I was flaring as little as possible and seating and crimping in same OP on a single stage turret. I would test finished rounds by pushing the bullet into a wooden bench and I could easily get the bullet to move .030 or more. I then set up the FCD per the instructions and all is well. Rounds plunk and bullets only move if I get plain silly pushing on them.

 

[Blue68f100]

I actually was having a problem getting enough neck tension with the standard Lee crimp die. I was flaring as little as possible and seating and crimping in same OP on a single stage turret. I would test finished rounds by pushing the bullet into a wooden bench and I could easily get the bullet to move .030 or more. I then set up the FCD per the instructions and all is well. Rounds plunk and bullets only move if I get plain silly pushing on them.

The proper fix would be to reduce the size of the expander to increase neck tension.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I actually was having a problem getting enough neck tension with the standard Lee crimp die.

Neck tension isn't a product of a crimp die

 

[Zendude]

Well, i figured out the issue. I was not taking enough of the flare out. Adjusted the seating/crimp die and it plunks fine. Now i have to run several hundred cartridges back through that die.

 

[kmw1954]

that stinks, but glad you figured it out.

 

[Zendude]

that stinks, but glad you figured it out.

I’m just relieved that I don’t need to break down the cartridges.

 

[rfwobbly]

Well, I figured out the issue. I was not taking enough of the flare out. Adjusted the seating/crimp die and it plunks fine.

I'm just sorry that your thread took such a circuitous route to get you a solution. Apologies. Seems like every time a thread gets anywhere near the subject of taper crimping, the focus wanders off into FCD never-never land. Clearly feelings run high, both Pro and Con, and use of the FCD is a continuous issue. At the route is the fact that ithe FCD clearly works for some people and not for others. In my mind the FCD needs to be discussed a lot less, and its Root Cause needs to be discussed a lot more, which is... All 9mm chambers meet SAAMI specs AND YET all chambers for 9mm handguns vary from maker to maker. The Ruger chamber is not the same as the Sig chamber, and the Glock chamber is nothing like the CZ chamber. Therefore your solution is not going to be like my solution, even though we all shoot the same ammunition.

► One day, there will be a sticky that will calmly discuss both the pros and cons of the FCD, fairly presenting both sides. And all discussion will be referred to that thread and kept out of the personal threads requesting help, such as yours.

Until then, all you really need to be warned is that: 1) the FCD requires critical adjustments that may take many hours and several dozen cartridges to fully tune, and 2) watch out if you are using lead bullets of any kind. The FCD is known to resize lead bullets. Your part in all this is: critical cartridge measurements and using your barrel as your "go-no go" gauge. It's your barrel that you need to make happy, and not any of the contributors to this thread !!

Now i have to run several hundred cartridges back through that die.

That's correct. But because your cartridge uses a taper crimp, instead of a roll crimp, you are free to adjust the taper crimp smaller and the OAL shorter on finished cartridges as needed. This can safely be done by running them back through the press, skipping the Sizing and Powdering dies.

Here's what you're looking for... a cartridge mouth dimension smaller than the 0.380" dimension shown in your manual. Generally speaking, that dimension works out to be between 0.376 and 0.378" measured within .040" of the case mouth. There will be some variation in this based on the type of crimp die, brand of brass, and the case length. Larger it won't fit the chamber easily, and smaller you run the risk of buckling the case and loosing neck tension.



As always, the proof is in the pudding. Will the finished cartridge fall all the way into and then fall back out of the naked barrel using only the weight of the cartridge ? Picture the cartridge and the barrel as the bride and groom. It doesn't matter what anyone here says, it's those 2 participants that need to be happy.



All the best.

 

[Zendude]

That's correct. But because your cartridge uses a taper crimp, instead of a roll crimp, you are free to adjust the taper crimp smaller and the OAL shorter on finished cartridges as needed. This can safely be done by running them back through the press, skipping the Sizing and Powdering dies.

Here's what you're looking for... a cartridge mouth dimension smaller than the 0.380" dimension shown in your manual. Generally speaking, that dimension works out to be between 0.376 and 0.378" measured within .040" of the case mouth. There will be some variation in this based on the type of crimp die, brand of brass, and the case length. Larger it won't fit the chamber easily, and smaller you run the risk of buckling the case and loosing neck tension

All the best.

This is good to know. My mistake was only measuring OAL and adjusting the seating stem only. What I didn’t realize was the entire die was gradually backing itself out, thus taking less flare out of the brass. I’ll now keep an eye on both the taper and OAL.

 

[9mmepiphany]

What I didn’t realize was the entire die was gradually backing itself out, thus taking less flare out of the brass. I’ll now keep an eye on both the taper and OAL.

That is one of the reasons that folks often recommend seating and crimping in separate steps

 

[rfwobbly]

My mistake was only measuring OAL and adjusting the seating stem only. What I didn’t realize was the entire die was gradually backing itself out, thus taking less flare out of the brass. I’ll now keep an eye on both the taper and OAL.

Here's an idea that may help... I've long been a fan of o-ring technology for sealing oil leaks, but when I noticed that some die brands use o-ring like spacers to dampen out adjustment changing vibrations, I started adding o-rings to my own dies.

Here's a rubber dampening ring that comes on Hornady dies...


Here's a rubber o-ring that I've added to Dillon dies...


In this way you don't need to torque things down to keep adjustments from changing. Finger-tight is all that's required, and then when minor changes are needed, adjustments are easy to make.

Hope this helps.

 

[D Rock]

That's an interesting idea. Next time I clean my seating and crimping dies I think I'll try the O Ring. Thanks!

Dave

 

[Bill M.]

You can buy the Lee lock rings with the O ring if you like them.

I am glad the OP solved his problem easily. I only shoot 9mm in a revolver with plated bullets so I use the taper crimp die all the time on it and had to work through the amount of flare and crimp problem a couple of times. I still sometimes have a slight issue with chambering. My gun has no tolerance for the shell not going all the way in with no resistance.

I use the Lee FCD when loading jacketed bullets in .357 and .41 mag. I have not seen a down side to using it. What has helped my loads the most so far is going to a competition bullet seater.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You can buy the Lee lock rings with the O ring if you like them.

Just be aware that if you go this route, you're giving up about half you potential engagement between die and lock ring due to reduced threads

 

[kmw1954]

Another solution for o-ring usage. https://www.amazon.com/wave-washers-wave-springs/b?node=16410981

 

[rfwobbly]

I don't believe "wave washers" have the necessary stick-tion to really stay in place as well. Certainly better than nothing at all, but the neoprene washers and o-rings may work a little better.

 

[Tcruse]

Had an issue similar to yours when started using a gun with a tight chamber. (DW Pointman 9). My solution was: 1) use the Lee undersized sizing die (removes the "Glock" buldge), 2) Stop using a separate crimp die 3) use an expander die that goes deeper in to the case rather than just flaring the opening 4) check every round with Lyman gauge Result: reduced powder with same performance, better accuracy, 100% reliable ammo. I use a mix of coated, plated and FMJ 9mm in 124 and 115 weights.