A compeling reason to carry lots of ammo.

[Poor East Texan]

I don't have a carry license and the way I've dressed for most of my life (Jeans that fit, tucked in button down work shirt and laced boots) I could only carry a pocket gun at best.

I have an S&W 456 with 10+1 at hand in the truck (which is an 8,000 LB beast which WILL get out of it's own way!)

I go a lot of places where they would croak if they knew!!!

I pretty much don't go out at night. I live in the "country" with neighbors a bit farther away than when we lived in Houston.

An 870 with 4+1 of #4 buck is my primary weapon at home.

 

[Justin]

Statistically speaking, the vast majority (something like over 90%) of successful incidents of defensive gun uses conclude without a shot being fired.

Of those that remain, the general number of shots fired is well under ten. Something like six or less on average.

Then, on top of the statistically unlikely odds that you will have to fire your weapon in self defense, you have to deal with the issues of concealability and comfort.
Concealability and comfort are, of course, ultimately subjective issues that are set against how generally risk-averse you are.

That said, I have to admit that those of you who claim to carry an excessive amount of ammunition on a daily basis are selling yourself toupées.

 

[Okiecruffler]

All kidding aside, here's my worry. It's not just us gun nuts what read these threads. This board has grown a might since we were just a small group of TFL refugees, big enough now to get some peeks from those who would do us political rather than physical harm. Now those folks I don't care about, we won't win their hearts any any more than they will win ours. But it's the middle of the road, scared when a car horn blares, folks that I'm worried about. And when they see a post where people are bragging about carrying 100's of rounds of ammo around on their person just waiting for the chance to get in a gunfight with a gang of nodogooders, well it doesn't reflect well on our cause.

 

[Mad Magyar]

That said, I have to admit that those of you who claim to carry an excessive amount of ammunition on a daily basis are selling yourself toupées.

 

[buzz_knox]

And when they see a post where people are bragging about carrying 100's of rounds of ammo around on their person just waiting for the chance to get in a gunfight with a gang of nodogooders, well it doesn't reflect well on our cause.

True. They'll also see fellow gun owners referring to those who carry a moderate amount of ammunition (i.e. anything over 5 rounds and a reload) as paranoid, delusional, etc. They'll also see discussions about shooting the first one and the rest will flee and putting rounds into "eyeholes."

Anyone think those comments and the denigration won't play well with them?

As said before, it's up to everyone to carry what they feel is necessary. The insults from both sides damage us equally.

 

[Geno]

For my part, I simply do within reason what I was taught to do by my Advanced Tactical Shooting instructor. At minimum we should carry a primary and back-up pistol of the same make and caliber with interchangeable magazines, i.e G17 and G19C, or Colt Gov't and Colt Commander, your choice. Regarding the amount of ammunition, he simply advised us to carry, "...as much as you can." For me, it is a rare event that I go with less than both pistols carrying 17-round magazines, and 4 additional 17-round magazines. Is that excessive? No. It is what I was taught. The reason he taught to carry so many magazines is that if the magazine fails, we should "...dump the mag and load a new one". If the pistol fails, dumpt it and go to the back-up.

Do we practice exactly that? Yes, by placing a "dummy" (snap cap) round into the magazine. When the pistol fails to fire, due to the snap cap round, dump the mag, sweep the slide and continue. It gets more interesting when the snap cap intentionally gets loaded into the magazine reversed. That causes one basically to have switch out pistol and go to the back-up. By the way, no fair setting the pistol down. Because you have to drop the pistol, it is better practice with one you don't cherish. Ever wondered why I attend such session with my Glocks not my Colts?

Alas, I digress. To each his or her own. It is a matter of confidence and comfort. Whatever you practice, don't brag, boast, etc. Besides, and thankfully so, 99% of us will never have to draw our firearm in self-defense. But there are changes coming about since so many states are going shall issue. According to the instructor, most crimes in banks and pharmacies now are not single perp. Most are now two or more, and are gang related. He states that in such cases, one will not be in a typical 1 on 1 defense. For that reason, carry at least one back-up pistol, and as much ammunition as you can carry, and by the way, you better work on scanning for additional bad guys.

 

[buzz_knox]

For that reason, carry at least one back-up pistol, and as much ammunition as you can carry, and by the way, you better work on scanning for additional bad guys.

Doc, I hope you understand you have now set yourself up to being called paranoid, delusional, foolish, etc by your "betters."

 

[Geno]

Of course. The benefit for me is who my Advanced Tactical Instructors are:

1) Current Sergeant of a major PD here

2) Recently retired, 27-year Director of the county S.W.A.T., and now practicing attorney.

The local and county LEOs know them by name, face and reputation. The instant I advise any LEO of who trained me, and of who approved my MCPL, any disapproval stops.

I'm not paranoid, I am the other "P" words: prepared...and professional...and prudent...and polite...and pragmatic.

Doc2005

 

[ncsu]

Doc2005, are you a LEO? Or do you just carry two guns and spare ammo to the grocery store? A back up weapon and ammo for a LEO I can more than understand, but approaching a situation like running to the store for a loaf of bread like a tactical mission seems...well...you finish that sentence. Some of you guys must be posting from your homes in Iraq and Somalia. Don't forget your flak jackets for the kids!

 

[Trisha]

Please be constructive, ncsu. Your experiences and environment are not those of others here; likely you know it, too.

Those who carry and commit to the elevated inherent and implicit responsibilities and ramifications are commended. Train. Previsualize. Discretion is the better part of valor. To me, it's a basic skillset, part of any adult's "activities of daily living."

One size doesn't fit all. Be comforted with that reality, and if it doesn't make sense to you now, hopefully you remain able to discover validity in perspectives as yet unexplored.

You may be better served dismissing arrogance.

A back up weapon and ammo for a LEO I can more than understand

That's a curious comment. LEO's don't have extraordinary powers that differentiate themselves from anyone else, as far as I know. Certainly nothing that might significantly justify a substantially different level of mental, physical, and material preparation and training to calmly interact with everyday life when not on the clock.

If you believe otherwise, I would suspect you are more comfortable with sworn law enforcement being prominent in your emotional assignment of personal protection than the ordinary neighbor; and that's sad.

Ordinary people who've chosen to commit to CCW, to the training and equipment, including (I would hope) something beyond first aid are the reality of civilian deterrence and defense to any immediate threat as they pursue their everyday lives.

That, in all it's diversity, is an immeasurable good.

 

[Sato Ord]

and I honestly hope the hand grenade comments were jokes...

I do too, otherwise these people are in for a rude awakening. Besides the legalities involved, grenades have a heck of a blast area. Personally, with my shoulders they way they are, (left shoulder has been reconstructed and it didn't hold, and the right one is not much better), I don't think I could throw one far enough these days to be outside the blast area when it goes off.

Doc, I have to agree with you about training.

My friends and I train extensively also. Some of us are former LEO and former Military, and some of us are just average folks.

When it is all said and done you will react the way you are trained to react. If you don't train you will hesitate. A couple of seconds of hesitation could mean you leave the area horizontal instead of upright. Personally I am not ready to be fitted for a black baggie!

This is why my friends and I train for as many different scenarios as we can conceive, and then throw in as many malfunctions as we can contrive. Are all of these things likely to go wrong? I certainly hope not, but if something does cause a glitch I hope that I have done my training well and will react without hesitation.

If that makes me paranoid, then so be it. At least I'm not as likely to panic and shoot wild and get killed, or cause injury to innocent bystanders.

 

[pbearperry]

Last I checked,non Leos are not being sent to gun calls.Yes it is good to be trained in case it ever happens,but don't be too upset if it never does.Yes Leos have to always be prepared for the possibility of a gun fight,that's why they carry so much ammo.I have never seen so many people talk so much about being in gun fights as this group.Where do you folks all live,Guatemala?

 

[BlackJackal]

I'm not going to be uncomfortable all the time in case of that 1 in a million chance that I will shoot it out with a gang. The odds just aren't there.

Havent you ever heard " if i can happen, it will" :/ if i was old enough and lived in a country were we had the right to bear arms, i would carry plenty of ammunition, you never no when you will get caught in the "wrong place at the wrong time"..IMHO

 

[koja48]

'K, I stand corrected and now see the light. No more will I carry extra ammo. If an unfortunate confrontation occurs & I run out, I'll just call one of my three time-outs while I go home and re-supply. To each his/her own.

 

[cluttonfred]

Could we please merge this thread with the one on whether or not to carry a bigger gun when visiting the zoo? How many rounds do you need to feel safe in case the gorilla goes King Kong?

 

[ncsu]

I don't think anyone is saying don't carry ammo, I believe most of the sarcastic comments, mine included, are directed at the most extreme cases quoted here. It's all irrelevant though, as while I don't agree with the extreme cases, I'll defend the right of them to carry whatever they want until the day I die.

 

[Sato Ord]

Last I checked,non Leos are not being sent to gun calls.Yes it is good to be trained in case it ever happens,but don't be too upset if it never does.

Who said anything about getting upset if it never happens?

The last thing I want to do is get into a fire fight in the middle of my home town. It's a bad situation, and anything can happen when the bullets start flying. Even if I am firing perfectly it's a fair bet the BG isn't trained in the accurate use of the weapon he is carrying, and it's very likely he will use the spray and pray method. That puts everyone around in danger.

I tend to do everything I can to assure I don't find myself in such a situation. I watch my surroundings, I stay away from high crime areas, I refuse to engage with someone who is in the throws of road rage, etc...

The majority of us who train extensively do so for a couple of reasons. Obviously we feel the need to be ready in case, but less obviously, and perhaps more importantly, we also understand that carrying a firearm among our neighbors carries with it a great responsibility to make sure that we aren't going to throw hot lead in all directions and hope for the best. We are the law abiding citizens in such an instance. It is up to us, should the need arise, to make sure that we do everything right even when things are going horribly wrong.

Last on the list, but certainly not just an afterthought; training is a fun way to get some physical exercise while engaging in my favorite hobby.

Yes Leos have to always be prepared for the possibility of a gun fight,that's why they carry so much ammo.

Do you carry a pistol? If so, then you are either saying that you, too, are ready for the possibility of a gun fight. either that or you are saying that you carry a weapon that you are unsure about using if an emergency arises.

So, which is it? Do you train regularly with your firearm, or are you just going to hope you react well if you find yourself in mortal danger? Since you are a firearms safety instructor, I'm kinda bettin' you train a bit yourself.

I have never seen so many people talk so much about being in gun fights as this group.Where do you folks all live,Guatemala?

No, I live in a middle to upper middle class neighborhood on the space coast of Florida. Homes ranging from about $150k to $250k. In fact I live one block from the municipal golf course. Nice friendly neighbors and all that.

A few weeks ago someone tried to jump into my wife's car at a traffic light while she and my son were on their way home from one of his friend's birthday party. She ran over the guy's foot and drove away, but it could have gone a lot worse for her.

About a week later, two young adults/older teens tried to accost me while I was out walking. Fortunately I was walking a one hundred pound Great Dane. The dog is black and it was a moonless night. They didn't see her until she put herself between them and me and barked.

Both instances were dangerous and the outcome was ok in both cases. However, both incidents happened within five blocks of our home, in our own nice middle class neighborhood.

You don't have to live in a war zone to get mugged. In fact I was safer from criminals in a war zone because I was armed and in the middle of a squad of Rangers. Here at home we have no one but ourselves to rely on.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: I hope I never again have to take the life of another human being, but if someone forces me into a kill or be killed situation I want to not die!

 

[another okie]

In 1969 Richard C. Davis, founder of Second Chance body armor, emptied his six shot revolver at three robbers, then turned and ran. He was hit twice as he ran.

Mark Yuhr, a taxi driver in Florida, was about to be executed by robber when he pulled his 1911 and emptied it into the robber. Mark then drew his back up revolver rather than reloading.

Both cases are documented in "The Ayoob Files: the Book" by Massad Ayoob.

 

[putteral]

Well said Sato Ord

 

[Okiecruffler]

Okay, fine, carry your 950 rds of ammo. How many of you wear body armour while you're out and about? You carry a first aid kit with you at all times? Are you CPR certified? Do you have a contact that you call before you leave and when you arrive? Do you have a fire extinguisher in your kitchen, garage and vehicle, or have you ponied up for a home sprinkler system? Do you carry your medical records with you in case there's an accident and you're rushed to the ER. When was your last full physical? Have you gotten your hep vaccines yet? Do you eat your meat and eggs fully cooked or do you avoid them all together? Do you drive the speed limit? Wear your seatbelt all the time? Quit smoking yet? Just wondering.

 

[TimboKhan]

In 1969 Richard C. Davis, founder of Second Chance body armor, emptied his six shot revolver at three robbers, then turned and ran. He was hit twice as he ran.

Mark Yuhr, a taxi driver in Florida, was about to be executed by robber when he pulled his 1911 and emptied it into the robber. Mark then drew his back up revolver rather than reloading.

Both cases are documented in "The Ayoob Files: the Book" by Massad Ayoob.

Good points, but even Massad Ayoob would tell you that most incidents involving a gun are solved without a shot being fired. I read and respect Massad Ayoob, and I think there are lessons to be learned from cases like the ones you mentioned, but neither they nor the other "Ayoob Files" articles are representative of what happens most commonly. Frankly, they wouldn't be interesting to read anyway!

 

[Wheeler44]

One time at band camp, ...there was a guy......who carried so much ammo he had a stroke and died, right before the big gunfight....

 

[koja48]

Last Post . . .

Let me set your inquiring mind at ease . . .


"950 rds of ammo”: I carry what I opt to & have the constitution-given right to carry.

"Body Armor": Underarmor, yes . . . in season.

"First aid kit": In both vehicles & daypacks, plus one for camping, 1 in the boat, a couple in the house, and another 2 or 3 in the coaching gear.

"CPR certified?”: Yes

"Contact that you call before you leave and when you arrive?”: Kids are ALWAYS are aware of my travels, within reason.

"Fire extinguisher in your kitchen, garage and vehicle": Yes to all, plus a couple in the shop & 1 in my boat. No fire suppression system in the house but I DO have plentiful hose bibs & hoses (and there is one in the office).

"Medical records with you": I do wear a medical ID bracelet. I no longer sew my name in my underwear, however . . .

"Last full physical?”: Annually, plus I undergo a complete cardiovascular check each year.

"Hep vaccines yet?": Inoculations I deem prudent are current, including tetanus & flu shots.

"Meat and eggs fully cooked": Meat not quite, but I eat buffalo more often than beef. I enjoy the occasional egg. I also religiously consume my share of roughage, water, and a celebratory shot of smooth whiskey after a fine evening of fly-fishing in case you were curious . . .

"Drive the speed limit?": I drive a Wrangler . . . I'm delighted if I can achieve the speed limit, lol . . . in the car, it’s no more than 3 over and hopefully that keeps me with the flow of traffic so I don’t pose a hazard at the other end of the speed spectrum, dependent on conditions.

"Wear your seatbelt all the time?”: Since before it was law . . .

"Quit smoking yet?”: Never ever started.

Any other answers you require to certify me sufficiently concerned about my personal well being? Plus, I continue to engage in strength-training, aerobic exercise, practice martial arts, read the Bible & pray daily.

I hope that I passed your muster (actually, since I'm also honest to a fault, I don't really care . . . I do these things INCLUDING carrying the defensive tools & accessories I carry for MY benefit, not because you sanction such measures or because I'm desperate for your or anyone else's approval.)

Oh, and I practice frequently with those firearms I carry (in addition to others).

 

[another okie]

I usually carry one reload for whatever gun I'm carrying. If you want to carry more than that, or carry none at all, that's fine with me. I don't understand why some people feel that their way must be right for everyone.

Oh, and obviously the cases I cited are not typical. Needing a gun at all is not typical. But several people above said they had never heard of a case where a non-LEO needed to reload. Now they have.

 

[Catherine]

QUOTE:

I'll give you an idea as to how I handled that same situation while working.

A crowd surronded me and told me they were going to beat my ass.

I drew my gun and told them, "I won't kill all of you, but I'll kill the first person who attacks me."

It appears no one wanted to be the martyr.

~~~~~

All right!

Catherine