A different way to hold an auto pistol

[hemiram]

I don't believe that the grip itself means a lot, as long as it's comfortable for the shooter. I used to shoot very well, "doing it all wrong" according to the instructor at the range I shot a two or three times a week. I basically got to the point I just ignored his advice. I didn't like his "right" grip at all.

 

[Riomouse911]

Wrapping the support hand around the gun hand with the thumb against the frame is how high level shooters are able to be so fast and accurate. The old school cup and saucer grip has evolved long ago. It may work fine for slow shooting but it will do nothing for speed and stability of the gun.

That was the tip I got to alter my grip just a bit. I must say that it is keeping me on a vertical line when blasting fast. Before I was shown to put pressure on the side of the frame with the left thumb, my shots were moving low-left.

This is the way I was taught at Illinois Police Training Institute in the 1990s, and it worked for me. It still works for me, likely due to decades of practice with this method. Left hand wrapped around right (trigger hand), thumbs froward with index finger of left hand wrapped around front of trigger guard. All municipal and county LEOs were trained this way back then, as were the Illinois State Police. And every gun maker and their mothers introduced pistols with squared and serrated trigger guards to wrap that finger around.

Granted, the type and size of handgun you have these days will dictate what works best for you. I still have my 1990s S&W 915 duty weapon as my main squeeze. The front of the trigger guard is not squared like the S&W 5904, but it does have vertical grooves on the front of the trigger guard so your support index finger won't tend to slip off.

View attachment 1172507

I was taught that way too, back in 1991.

My S&W 5906 and SIG Sauer P-226 also had that squared trigger guard for the finger-forward grip.

I have since moved my left index under the trigger guard as my two-handed grip evolved over the decades.

One can always try something new, it just may help you shoot better.

Stay safe.

 

[12Bravo20]

I enlisted in the Army in Jan 89 and was not taught or told to use the tea cup hold. I worked with and trained with many different types of units to include SF and Rangers and none of them used the tea cup hold either.


In reality it comes down to personal preference and what technique works best for the individual shooter. But for an instructor to tell people that they have to use a certain technique and other techniques are incorrect is wrong.

 

[BC17A]

I took the CCP course some years ago, the instructor who had been in some kind of military Ranger unit showed us that the support hand was to be held flat and the gun hand to be placed on top of it.
He used the analogy of a baseball mit with the gun hand being the ball.

When I first joined the USAF I was told "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach". 32 years later, when I retired and hung up my uniform, I believe that more than ever. No offense but I bet you can't show us one winning competitive shooter who grips their firearm with that teacup girly man hold.

​

 

[Beck]

That was the tip I got to alter my grip just a bit. I must say that it is keeping me on a vertical line when blasting fast. Before I was shown to put pressure on the side of the frame with the left thumb, my shots were moving low-left.


I was taught that way too, back in 1991.

My S&W 5906 and SIG Sauer P-226 also had that squared trigger guard for the finger-forward grip.

I have since moved my left index under the trigger guard as my two-handed grip evolved over the decades.

One can always try something new, it just may help you shoot better.

Stay safe.

Yep absolutely, I agree 100 percent that it's good to experiment and find what works best for us. We're all built differently, different hand sizes, etc. I also agree that we should learn to shoot with our weak hand, and with only one hand for situations that are not ideal and don't turn out like the textbook or training.

In the last police involved shooting in my neck of the woods, the officer didn't have time to assume a proper stance and the body camera footage shows him shooting back as quickly as he could with one hand. He won that gun fight, but there was no time for "proper" form according to his training.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I was taught that way too, back in 1991.

My S&W 5906 and SIG Sauer P-226 also had that squared trigger guard for the finger-forward grip.

I seem to remember being taught that too...but I think it was back in the mid- 80s and was considered an improvement over the tea-cup grip and the point-shoulder position. Unfortunately it was still based on the Weaver and the flawed belief that you should be pulling your sights back down from recoil.

Interestingly the finger hook on the front of the trigger guard is making a bit of a comeback with Lena Miculek (jerry and Kay's daughter) to compensate for her lack of upper body strength (compared to her peers). The difference is that force applied to the trigger guard isn't downward but laterally (against the force of her thumbs on the frame)

The flaw of the teacup grip is that it only supports the shooting hand in the mistaken belief that the gun can be held still. What it gives up to having both hands on the grip is fully enclosing the frame and helping the gun return to the original POI through management of recoil.

"Whatever works best for you" is a empty statement without setting a goal...in both speed and accuracy (at an established distance)... to be accomplished. I remember when a popular goal was 5 shots in 5 seconds, into 5 inches , at 5 yards." That is a "goal" but it is dreadfully slow and not very accurate for defensive use. A more reasonable goal would be to do it in 2.5 seconds ...and work your way down to 1.5 seconds while maintaining accuracy (really, you should be shooting into 2 inches at that distance)

 

[JTQ]

The "cup and saucer" grip isn't something I'd use or recommend, but use what works for you. Here is a video from the SIG Academy

Keys to Pistol Shooting Success | Shooting Tips from SIG SAUER Academy

Adam Painchaud, Director of the SIG SAUER Academy in New Hampshire, discusses with Dave Miles two keys to pistol shooting success. Adam breaks shooting funda...

www.youtube.com

 

[BCRider]

Techniques change with time and development.

At one time pistols were drawn and shot one handed.

Then at some point we were treated to the Weaver stance and hold.

Then we got the two hands high on the gun and the current IPSC and "body armor" square on stance.

Pick the one that works for you.

But for me it is hard to argue that the current two handed, thumbs high, gun deep in the grip with elbows turned out slightly is not well controlled and very good at getting multiple shots on target in a short time.

 

[Pat Riot]

Try many different grips and see what works for you.
Once you find it then practice practice practice. If you find it doesn’t work, start again.

(Tongue firmly planted in cheek) >>>>>>>
After you have it dialed in then, whenever the subject comes up, promote your grip and belittle, emasculate and insult others for not liking what you like.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

This - and the various other flavors of the "teacup" hold - actually work fine for guns with little recoil, or for situations where rapidity of fire is inconsequential. For those situations where the gun needs to be quickly brought down from recoil in anticipation of the next shot, though, a firm two-handed grasp is very helpful.

I'd strongly question the credentials of a CCW instructor who insists on "teacupping" a defensive piece.

I strongly question the credentials of all firearms instructors.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Our 'snubby league' has been experimenting with variations in courses of fire, including 5 rounds strong hand/5 rounds weak hand...that is something of an eye opener, the weak hand especially. It makes you feel like a rookie...
I've seen the HS/LD guys really 'crawling' the gun; in some cases, their off hand is so far forward that I hope they never try shooting a revolver.
Weak hand over strong hand, squeeze with the supporting hand, firm hold, thumbs forward...no need to crawl halfway to the front sight.
BTW, the 'Dirty Harry' wrist bracing hold has been discussed; there was also a "thumbs crossed" behind the frame hump; it works, after a fashion, with hard kicking revolvers. With autopistols, not so much.....
Moon

 

[jrmiddleton425]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people hold and are taught to hold an auto pistol with the fingers of the support hand wrapped around the fingers of the gun hand.
When I took the CCP course some years ago, the instructor who had been in some kind of military Ranger unit showed us that the support hand was to be held flat and the gun hand to be placed on top of it.
He used the analogy of a baseball mit with the gun hand being the ball.

I've used this method since then and find it to be much better than the conventional way which doesn't really support the gun hand but just holds onto it. In his way, the support hand takes weight off of the gun hand, and to me is a lot more comfortable and practical.
Another practical aspect of his way is that it keeps the thumb of the support hand away from the slide. I see so many pictures using the "conventional" way where the thumb is sticking up next to the slide which can come in contact with the slide when the gun is fired resulting in "slide bite" which isn't fun.

Anyway, if anyone wants to chime in on this

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with the old cup-and-saucer grip. It works fine. It's just that it fell out of use about fifty years ago.
My father tried to teach it to me when I started shooting handguns twenty years ago. I say he tried, because I can't turn my left hand so it faces palm up. So I started reading everything I could find about handgun shooting. And I taught myself the old U.S. Army method of one-handed shooting. People are amazed that I can do it, and it works, People who watch me shoot ask my father where I learned to shoot one-handed.

My father's response is, "He taught himself, and he's a better shot than I am."

 

[someguy2800]

I strongly question the credentials of all firearms instructors.

I would be especially skeptical of an Army Ranger teaching the cup and saucer grip in 2023.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

You can shoot a gun any way you want on a static range.

You cannot shoot a gun any way you want in all scenarios, however.

If you're right handed, for example, try shooting to your left from around the corner of cover this way without excessively exposing yourself. Try doing it with a classic Weaver stance.

My point here is not to focus on "The One Correct Grip/Stance". Rather, learn several and their relative strengths and weaknesses.

It's no different, really, than learning how to shoot weak handed.

Everything has its place.

 

[Gun-Reck]

Have found, especially with light weight, high energy pistols like a compact Glock, that there are Two grip components that make all the difference.

1. Extent/point the strong hand thumb, until the knuckles of the thumb and index finger are "T"ed square.
2. Press the support palm into the bare grip under the strong hand palm, rotated forward to key it in, so the thumbs are parallel and pointing forward at the target.

Then the shot will go where it's aimed.

 

[tarosean]

This little blue thing will prove your grip is not effective. Pick one up or download an app on your phone and test it for yourself

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Theres only one correct way to hold a Glock that has a beveled trigger, it's the same no matter the size of the hand. Pad on the bevel, slide aligned with forearm. Simple. Even small hands can hold large frame glocks perfectly. Largest hands might be the most difficult. By doing that it eliminates low left shooting by making the trigger finger knuckle pivot outwards and remain naturally independent from the rest of the hand. Its a one handed technique, the way Glocks are meant to be shot. The optional support hand( real support, not a 2 handed grip) can be used in any way preffered but I think its best to assist holding the grip back to reduce muzzle flip for quick follow up shots. That technique design Glock put alot of thought into along with the grip angle to minimize training time while enhancing maximum proficiency with his Glocks.

 

[9mmepiphany]

the way Glocks are meant to be shot

Reference citation please

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Reference citation please

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Basic Action Shooting: The Grip and Trigger Pull

At my gun club we teach an Action Range Certification class, where I have been one of the instructors for about a year. We teach the grip illustrated in the following photos, which I will try to explain here: 1. Grip the pistol with the strong hand as shown in the first and second photos. Note...

www.glock.pro

The finger does not hook around the trigger. It does not point directly left as it would a flat faced trigger, it points diagonal.

From my experience though, the trigger is heavier to pull this way. Lots of dry fire will be required to build the strength to get it right. A good solution is to use a Glock minus connector. Most people will cheat and begin to hook the trigger, thereby hurting accuracy.

The finger cannot pull straight back without lifting the palm where the fingers start which will create a gap up high that will get filled simultaneously by the grip tilting the barrel left and down, opposite of high and right where the trigger finger meets the palm. By using the bevel the finger instead will pivot leaving the palm flat against the grip, the knuckle lifts independently.
Thats the best I can describe it.

Picture an excavator, when it scoops dirt directly towards it on level ground the arm pivots upward as it comes in. However, if the scoop goes lower than level to bring dirt up the arm lowers and the front tracks of the excavator will lift.

 

[JohnKSa]

The teacup grip should work ok for slow-fire accuracy. Might even be superior for that over a two-handed hold because the weak-hand will be less likely to push the gun around due to grip changes or reflexes.

Where it's going to suffer is rapid fire. There's no substitute for getting as much contact surface on the gun as high as is practically possible for controlling recoil.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Its a one handed technique, the way Glocks are meant to be shot.

...designed to be usable with one hand

Don't mean the same thing...to say nothing about the Wikipedia article you reference not directly relating to Glock pistols. "Designed to be usable" means that it was designed so that it could be used with one hand

The infer that this somehow means that the Glock was meant to be shot with a one handed technique is a very long stretch

The original Glock pistol was designed to win an Austrian Army contract. The picture below shows them learning to correctly grip their Glock

 

[JohnKSa]

Having taken a few classes from instructors employed by Glock, I can tell you that Glock does not teach people to shoot their pistols one-handed except as a contingency.

Handguns are certainly meant to be usable with one hand, and that provides a lot of flexibility, but that doesn't mean it's always best to use them one-handed. If you can get a proper two-handed grip on a gun, you will be able to get rounds on target faster and more accurately than if you shoot it one-handed or using a two-handed grip that doesn't involve the support hand helping to manage recoil.

Good info on the trigger technique. It's been my experience that the hardest thing for most people to master when shooting a handgun is pulling the trigger without moving the gun. That includes not only controlling the flinch, but also developing a technique that doesn't push/pull the gun in such a way as to disturb the sight alignment or pull the gun off target.

 

[StrykerByte.45]

Thats what I said.

The optional support hand( real support, not a 2 handed grip) can be used in any way preffered but I think its best to assist holding the grip back to reduce muzzle flip for quick follow up shots.

Handguns, all, are made to be shot one handed. Glock just improved upon that aspect. Its more likely one hand will be used. Except, I believe it takes away a bit from the 2 hand aspect which is why many believe the grip sucks. Thats why I say that its by design. One can choose to maximize upon it or change the design, or just not buy a Glock. I dont see what the big deal is.

Bevel is there for a reason. Its not there to hurt your finger. It allows reach for different sized hands, better control, minimal training. Glock is a Genius. Deny it all you want. The info is out there. I tried a few minutes to find but im not looking all day. Many people know it, majority dont. I know what the norm is. I learned the "right" way for a long time. When I figured out the wrong way it all made sense and the struggles stopped.

Its not like its a law. Its an opinion. Its Gaston's opinion that the 22 degree grip is better. Its his decision to incorporate a beveled trigger.

Anyone just has to dry fire like that to see for themselves how it is.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Its a one handed technique, the way Glocks are meant to be shot.

The reference you cited (which is not a reference at all, by the way) does not lend credence to your claim. It's about "a handgun", not "Glock", the specific handgun you're inferring is specifically designed the way you claim. It very clearly makes the distinction between a pistol ("designed to be usable with only one hand") and a long gun ("which needs to be held by both hands and braced against the shoulder").

ANY pistol can be said to be designed to be shot one handed. They have a single grip, after all, with no second grip or shoulder bracing.

The fact that people shoot pistols with both hands does not change this. Shooting with both hands is a matter of stability and control.

I cannot find any Glock reference which states that they are intentionally designed as "meant to be shot one handed" as a specific feature, or as a feature not offered by other handgun designs. And even if there were, such a claim would be no different for virtually ANY handgun.

What we CAN find is a whole lotta postings which amount to nothing more than personal opinion/conjecture on the subject of why Glock chose 22 degrees.