A serious question about an AR vs M1 Carbine for defense.

[Mr_Flintstone]

Not my intent to say that the old M1 eats the AR’s lunch, but more about ammunition and SD/HD engagement distances.

With that said, the 110 gr .30 carbine (depending on brand) produces 800-900 ft-lbs @about 1900 FPS at the muzzle from an M1 Carbine. Comparing that to .223/5.56, you get about 1100 ft-lbs at the muzzle from most 55 gr and 62 gr rounds from an M4 length carbine (more from a full 20” barrel). At this point, it seems a no brainer that the AR is the more powerful carbine; though I doubt it would make much difference in a home invasion if the BG was hit by either at 10-20 feet.

If you load .30 carbine cases with 85 gr .30 Luger/7.62 Tokarev JSP or hollow points over H110 powder (per Hodgdon’s) , though, you get a little over 1100 ft-lbs @ 2458 FPS. Same energy as the .223 in a 16” barrel carbine.

Now my question. Why does no one offer a commercial .30 carbine SD/HD round loaded this way? I guess some may say “what’s the point?” More people have an AR than an M1, but that’s really beside the point. I could load these myself easily, but there’s always that “handloads for self defense” legal issue.

 

[Robert]

Why doesn't someone make a specialty load for a rifle that, while popular, has less following than other rifles? I suppose no demand would be the answer. Companies only survive if they make money. Ammo that doesn't sell doesn't make money.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I have a couple of both rifles, I wouldn't consider the m1 at all unless nothing else was available simply because of weight/ ergonomics. I also don't keep an Ar loaded near the bed either, I choose a pistol for that. I'd likely keep a shotgun before the rifle as well.
That said I've never been able to find much in the way of factory ammo for the m1 carbine. Very little demand I think. But the variety is pretty poor. Most of what i see is foreign manufacture, similar to 25 acp.

 

[cheygriz]

The 5.56 round has enough velocity to produce hydrostatic shock. The M193 round will tumble when impacting soft targets, increasing wounding potential exponentially.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

The question should be, Why doesn’t anyone make new, reliable magazines for the M1 carbine? Then followed by the ammo question.
I like my M1 Carbines, but they are pretty far down on the list of guns I would use for home defense.

 

[22250Rem]

I'm with Robert on this one. I'd bet that market research has found that it would not be economically feasible for what would basically be a "niche market"; and that niche size is probably small enough that they would have to charge prices so high that they would drive away the majority of potential customers.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

The 5.56 round has enough velocity to produce hydrostatic shock. The M193 round will tumble when impacting soft targets, increasing wounding potential exponentially.

Underwood offers an 85 gr Xtreme Cavitator, but it’s only rated for 2100 FPS/832 ft-lbs. I don’t know if this would be much more effective than standard hollow points though. $1.60 per round/box of 20.

 

[RedlegRick]

I dropped a mule deer doe with one shooting Remington 110 grain SPs, if that's anything. Never had an issue with the 5 or 15 rounders, it was the 30s that were real stinkers for me.

If I had one now, I'd have zero concerns using it for SD. Good enough for Uncle Sugar, good enough for me.

 

[Nuclear]

The Remington and Gold Dot soft points, Hornady Critical Defense, Cor Bon DPX, all perform well in ballistic tests, ranging from 13-21" of penetration and expanding to around 0.4" or slightly more. I don't think you could improve the performance much more, unless you loaded the lighter, faster load the OP came up with. The only issues I can see with that loading is (a) would the M1 Carbine function properly with it, since the gun was designed around the traditional load, and (b) being lighter, would it lose speed faster in flesh and penetrate less than is needed?

I would like a polymer mag like Gunny proposes (are you listening MagPul?) or even an aluminum or stainless one that didn't rust so readily.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I wouldn’t consider using my M1 Carbine for defense as it’s too valuable. It’s a Saginaw SG with a stock cartouche that makes it desirable as a collectors item. I use it to shoot in M1 Carbine matches. (Successfully).

I can get AR’s all day long for just north of $500. My Saginaw will pull $1500+.
No brainer...

 

[FL-NC]

Ammo availability aside, I would hesitate to use a M1 carbine for HD for a few reasons- first, they don't lend themselves well to attaching a white light, which to me is an essential tool on a HD weapon, given that it is dark about 50% of the time, yet crimes happen disproportionally during periods of darkness. Second, as I understand, there are limited choices in magazines- either really old GI mags, or aftermarket mags that are usually of questionable reliability. Third, I wouldn't care to use a C&R collectible firearm worth that type of $ (are there any operating carbines out there for less than $1,000 any more?) to be confiscated and placed into evidence (even if only temporarily) when I could use an AR15 that could be pieced together for less than $500, and replaced the next day. Even if it was returned, it probably won't be in the same shape it was when taken. I bought my first one for $120 in the early 90's, and I remember when my uncle in the 70's carried one he paid even less for in his sheriff squad car. Them days is over!

 

[Riomouse911]

I was going to say Gold Dots and Critical Defense loads are about as good as you’re going to get with the M1.

My issue is relying on my 74 year old M1 carbine to carry the mail in a self defense situation, even with some of my newer 10 round mags. It’ll probably work just fine, but I’d rather use a more modern firearm myself.

Stay safe!

 

[1KPerDay]

The question should be, Why doesn’t anyone make new, reliable magazines for the M1 carbine? .

Have you tried the KCI ones?

https://www.brownells.com/magazines...zines/m1-30-carbine-magazines-prod119036.aspx

 

[crestoncowboy]

I don't think the gun was ever considered good enough by the military it was an intermediate between the rifle and pistol, and was replaced many years before I was born, numerous times by better intermediate guns. And unlike the 1911 I havent heard anyone really arguing that we needed it back in our arsenal either. We have used a lot of guns that were "good enough" for their role at the time. No one is arguing the logistics of using a trap door or a liberator pistol either, but they were "good enough" for their roles at their time.
Many modern pistol caliber carbines exist that would be better for home defense from a reliability/ weight/ ammunition etc. I love the history and sheer Americana of a lot of the old arms, I'd choose a garand, m1 carbine, ww2 era 1911 or old military Springfield Any day over another AR if someone were giving me another one today, but I don't know one person who owns an M1 who keeps it for SD or would consider it high on their list for that role. Most I know keep a pistol/ pistols and many keep an 870/ 500. Some keep an AR for varmints and perhaps defense if something highly unlikely took place, but not one uses an m1 carbine
My grandpa carried an M1 carbine in ww2. He owned 2 until he got unable to use them and sold them to 2 sons, yet He never kept one loaded for SD . At times he kept a 22 revolver for sd but never the carbines.
I think the ammunition makers will make small runs to keep ammo out there, but with ppu/ prvi/ armscorp/ tula in the market I don't even know if that will happen. Much less any development.
I would love to see a good pmag made. I would even buy 5 or 10 But again how many people are buying carbine mags compared to the glock and AR mags they mass produce? And even I'll admit It would turn my stomach to see a polymer mag in a classic wood/ steel rifle

 

[jmr40]

Energy never killed anything. What matters is penetration and shot placement with expansion helping if possible. A 110 gr 30 caliber bullet fired from a 30 carbine is a short stubby bullet that gives poor penetration compared to a 62gr+ 223 bullet. That was it's problem during WW-2 and Korea. It wasn't bad in the Pacific and in Vietnam when shot at 130-150 lb enemy soldiers wearing light clothing and at close range. It performed poorly in Korea and Europe when soldiers were wearing heavy winter clothing, ranges were greater and with larger enemy soldiers. Going to a lighter 30 carbine bullet would be a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Tommygunn]

So far as magazines, KCI make very good 15 rounders.
Ammunition is variable --- I just saw some Aquila soft nose .30 carbine at Academy Sports on Saturday, though I didn't buy any. But by and far I've seen much more ball ammo in .30 carbine when it is even available.
I use handguns/shotgun for home defense.
The .30 carbine round is perfectly good for self defense, especially if soft nose or hollow points can be had. However, the use of a classic WW2 weapon for home defense maybe not the best choice if equivalent modern weapons are in one's possession.

The carbine was very useful rear echelon weapon, and in Pacific jungle warfare it served very well.
The myth of it being stopped by the quilted winter jackets of the North Koreans was debunked during the war when one military commander took his men back out to a battlefield where carbines had been used on N. Koreans dressed in this gear. Corpses demonstrated bullet holes going into the body, and exit holes on the reverse side. The bullet had no problem going through these jackets, no problem at all.

But, I do agree with those who claim that, today, one is better off using a modern gun, with modern ammo, equipped as the user wishes.

 

[loose noose]

1KPerDay, I've got 3 KCI mags in the 15 round capacity that I bought quite awhile ago from I believe it was Brownell's, and I've got a couple of old military 15 rounders, incidentally I haven't had a problem with any of those magazines, but bought some cheap after market 15 and 30 round mags, and have since thrown them out. I would estimate that I have shot in the area of 2000 rounds with total reliability, mostly all hand loads. No I don't use it for home defense, for that I have several pistols that alternate for that use. I'll tell you though, that shooting that little carbine is the most fun you can have with your pants on.

 

[boom boom]

Jim Cirillo in his Tales from the Stakeout Squad and others from that unit actually rated the M1 Carbine as a pretty good firearm for their NYPD police unit. They did have the armorer throat them for hollowpoints if I remember correctly and did not fire fmj from them.

John Farnam, fwiw, also rates them as good in limited applications in his book for people that have issues with recoil and weight of the firearms--have no idea about how he feels about them today.

That being said, the design is dated and there is a known problem with most aftermarket magazines. GI magazines are great but mags are an expendable resource and they are not making new ones. The Korean 30 rounders are decent from what I remember firing a relative's M1 Carbine years ago-have no idea about the longevity of these--bought the Korean ones for the relative as a present.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

This discussion has moved past ammo, but that’s OK. I’m a simple kind of guy, and I like simple guns. I have an AR with a 16” barrel, and despite all the dress up toys available, I still find myself shooting it with the carry handle/iron sights. Fully loaded, though, it weighs over 7 lbs. My new production Auto Ordnance M1 Carbine only weighs a little over 5.5 lbs fully loaded, and for me is more maneuverable, and quicker to acquire a target.

But, that has a lot to do with my personal preferences, and not so much to do with power and accuracy.

All my mags are either GI or Kahr. The only one I ever had trouble with is a cheap Promag.

 

[1KPerDay]

GI magazines are great but mags are an expendable resource and they are not making new ones. The Korean 30 rounders are decent from what I remember firing a relative's M1 Carbine years ago-have no idea about the longevity of these--bought the Korean ones for the relative as a present.

GI mags are NOT great. Everyone parrots this because it's true in the case of the M14 and some other rifles but in the carbine they were a weak link, fragile and unreliable even when new, as people like Larry Vickers and those of us who shoot these rifles a lot will tell you. The Korean ones are superior in every way IMO.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Depending on what part of the house Im in, my carbine is one of my "go to's". I roll up my own Sierra 110 RNSP with H110, in USGI 15 rounders that are in good shape and proven. I dont worry too much about it, as far as effectiveness or it's value.
I love the way it handles, and Im pretty decent with it. lack of attached lighting is a downside, but.... bah, nothings perfect.
I keep trying to get my mom to take it for SD, but she aint havin it.

 

[Dibbs]

Ask yourself this, OP. Since the Mini-14 and M1 carbine are very similar actions, the difference
pretty much only being caliber, which would you prefer, the M1 Carbine, or Mini 14?
Personally, I'd take the Mini. (But I'd take a Garand over either.)

 

[crestoncowboy]

I've never weighed my ww2 m1 carbines but I would guess that they are far heavier than 5 lbs. With wood stocks slings Oilers etc. I could be wrong and it Could be that the fat short stock makes them feel heavier. Idk
I never meant to bash the m1 as
it's a personal favorite of mine. I wouldn't part with winchester my grandpa owned for 100k at this point in my life (hardships are unpredictable though).
For full disclosure if I were shipped to a warzone with one of my rifles it would be an ak. But the discussion was carbine vs AR. I got long winded out of boredom but my short answer is that in a battlefield the AR would easily get my vote (and the US militaries as well apparently). And for sd or personal defense I'd take even a hi- point 9, 10, 45 or 40 over the carbine, even though I own both and wouldn't trade an inland carbine for 10 of the hi- point on any given day.
It's not necessarily the fault of the 30 cal cartridge, but the rifle itself. Put the cartridge in a Five-SeveN type handgun or even an mp5 or similar platform and it could be more viable

 

[Dr T]

The Hornady factory Critical Defense loads look like they meet the OP's criteria for M1...

 

[AK103K]

I recently got the carbine bug and have four GI rifles now. They are fun shooters, but I dont see them replacing my AR's.

Reliability with the carbines has been the biggest issue Ive had, and three of the four were a mess when I first got them, and required new bolt parts (extractors, ejectors, and springs) and recoil springs, and the fourth is showing signs of needing them too. That, along with new Korean mags, has brought reliability up to about 95%, but thats about it. I still have occasional and random stoppages with all of them, along with ongoing random and unpredictable ejection.

I got about a half dozen 15 round GI mags with the guns, and when there is a problem, they are usually the mag in the gun when it happens. The Korean 15 round mags are the better choice. Of course, thats with the guns that have had the bolts rebuilt and run half decent. I dont think the mags alone will fix the reliability problems.

From what Ive read, mags were an issue from the very beginning, and basically considered expendable and routinely replaced when ammo was resupplied. I do think they are a weak point with the gun.

Ammo wise, Ive toyed with trying something other than FMJ's with them, but I really dont see the point. For me, they are toys/plinkers and the extra money spent on performance ammo/components would be a waste.