accuracy for ccw drills

[uspJ]

when i practice my ccw drills i use cardboard silhouette targets and use 9" paper plates for the heart and head area. i usually practice between three and fifteen yards. when i practice these drills my main goal is to make sure that i hit somewhere on the plate while transitioning to the next target.

so my question is do you think i need to focus more on accuracy when i train or is my current method suitable for a cq type of scenario?

 

[W.E.G.]

Shooter with first shot on-target usually wins.

Shoot some IDPA matches.
Score is based on speed COMBINED WITH accuracy.

 

[uspJ]

i can hit the plates as i go from target to target but i may not hit where i was aiming ie: aimed for center of plate but hit to the far right side of it. i guess what i was asking is should i focus more on putting the shot exactly where i aimed when trying to shoot multiple targets quickly.

 

[skyraider]

I always thought that if I can get 1 or 2 into the body it should confuse the BG enough to put the next one in tne bullseye

 

[rcmodel]

use 9" paper plates for the heart and head area.

Forget the head area!

The head is the most difficult target to hit in a gunfight because it is always a moving target.

A head shot can even be ineffective if the bullet glances off of the sloping frontal skull plate. That is the thickest & hardest bone in the human body.
Even worse, if you hit too low or off-center and don't damage the brain or spine.

Practice Center of Mass hits in the heart lung area and you are sure to damage something very vital.

Make COM hits in shortest amount of time possible and you will very likely end the fight.

rc

 

[mljdeckard]

Jeff Cooper said that if your shots are closer than 8" from each other in a defensive situation, you aren't shooting fast enough.

Would it be good to get it tighter? It couldn't hurt, BUT, the law of diminishing returns come in real quick here. Are you trying to hit the spine, the eye, shoot the gun out of his hand, something like that? I agree with the above. It's best to get a hit. Even if it's not a good hit, it is much less likely that he will be able to get a hit on YOU if he's wounded, and you have the advantage from there. I would rather get a fast shot in from retention, back up and reassess, than try to pick out freckles in close quarters.

 

[ChaoSS]

Have you ever heard the phrase "aim big, miss big, aim small, miss small"?

The BG won't have paper plates tacked to his chest, and a paper plate is a large target. Why don't you use a human sized/shaped target, and aim for, say, his left nipple. You may be a few inches off, but that's still more accurate than hitting a large target, and you will be more accustomed to aiming for a specific point on a large target instead of any point on a smaller target that won't be there.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Jeff Cooper said that if your shots are closer than 8" from each other in a defensive situation, you aren't shooting fast enough....

However, let's not forget that 4" during practice becomes something much closer to 8" under stress. Add to that the fact that in real life one isn't shooting at a flat target.

 

[mljdeckard]

I agree. But I still think one fast hit does you more good than taking the time to try to hit the spine. One fast hit buys you time.

 

[uspJ]

The BG won't have paper plates tacked to his chest, and a paper plate is a large target. Why don't you use a human sized/shaped target, and aim for, say, his left nipple. You may be a few inches off, but that's still more accurate than hitting a large target, and you will be more accustomed to aiming for a specific point on a large target instead of any point on a smaller target that won't be there.

i'm using human silhouette targets made of cardboard. i use the paper plates on the chest to represent a com target. i usually put an orange dot on the center of the plate for an aiming point, that way i can judge how far i put the shot from where i was aiming.

i think we both have the same idea, i may just be going about it a differeent way.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...i use the paper plates on the chest to represent a com target. i usually put an orange dot on the center of the plate for an aiming point, that way i can judge how far i put the shot from where i was aiming....

One thing you'll notice about the targets most top instructors use for self defense training: they are silhouettes without defined aiming points or obvious scoring areas. (And Louis Awerbuck often uses three dimensional targets in unusual orientations.)

Some practice using conventional targets is a good thing to build and maintain trigger control and other basic marksmanship skills. But a BG won't have a bullseye pinned to his shirt, so some of your practice needs to include shooting quickly, from the holster, or at least a low ready, at targets without clear aiming points.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

What you’re doing right now sounds perfectly adequate for defensive applications, but not to the exclusion of also working on accuracy.

You should endeavor to shoot “accurately enough” when speed is the pressing matter (and I’m told that, at typical pistol-fighting distances, it often is), but you also need the ability to shoot with precision when precision is the pressing matter.

General rule of thumb these days seems to be eight inches of accuracy across all distances, high center chest. In other words, pretty much what you’re already doing. Adding some precision work to your practice would be a great idea.

I wouldn’t forget head shots, though, as earlier suggested. rcmodel’s cautions duly noted, you absolutely need the ability to shoot what needs to be shot when the shot is available, whether a head or an elbow or a toe.

Does this mean that "absolute precision" is the solution all of the time? Nope. "Accurate enough" will often do. Does this mean that absolute precision is the solution some of the time? Yep. Circumstances dictate which, and when.

Also, as ChaoSS mentions, when it comes time to shoot, you pick your spot and aim to hit it, whether that spot is a bullseye on a piece of paper, a button on a shirt, or an imaginary off switch.

 

[possum]

i use SEB tragets which have a 6"x6" high center chest target area, the same for the pelvis and a small inverted triangle for the head.

additionally i do not train to go from the body to the head, the head is a small target, and it will be most likely moving in a dynamic critical incident, and the fact that there is most likely gonna be innocent civilians around the area, it is ust not condusive to go to the head that soon. you are responsible for every bullet that leaves the gun.

this is what i do(how i train) 4-6 to the chest, then i go to the pelvic region with 2-3 rds, and then and only then if the threat hasn't stoped possing a leathal threat to me and or my loved ones, then i would go for a head shot. there are alot of nasty things that run through the pelvoc region, and if you take out the trunk the tree will fall, mobility will be gone, and most likely the assaliant will no longer be able to pose a lethal threat to you.

many people do not understand that just because you put a handgun bullet in the head of a target that that is gonna work. you need to go for a "hole" and or a weak spot. the human skull is very strong and can take and deflect alot of damage. the head is also round. just FYI and somethings that you should think about.

 

[Spencer_OKC]

I think being able to put hits on a 9-inch plate while shooting under simulated self-defense type circumstances gives you an good understanding of combat accurate hits.

I would say also spend some time developing marksmanship, shooting at whatever speed is necessary to make good accurate hits. "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast" is a saying that many have probably heard. The more you reinforce your skills the faster you'll be able to put those skills together, making it easier to hit your paper plates during high-speed stress drills.

Fiddletown mentioned 3D targets and realistic targets. These are also a good training tool, especially when you consider point of aim. If someone is standing at a 45 degree offset, your point of aim to make the most effective hits needs to be adjusted. Remember, you're not shooting for center of the chest, you're shooting for the point that is going to give you the best penetration to major internal organs.

 

[David E]

The problem with small aiming points is that, for defensive purposes, it slows you down too much.

While hitting the second shirt button on the badguys shirt might be ideal, I'd be stupid to NOT take a faster shot that hits 3" wide of it.

I'd much rather take a "good" shot NOW, than a "perfect" shot 1/2 second later.

I'd suggest keeping the plate for now (to make it easier to determine where to aim) but I'd lose the orange 1" dot in the center. ANYWHERE on the plate will suffice.

Then, take the plate off and use plain cardboard IDPA targets. Later, you can put shirts on them for added realism.

www.idpa.com has a "club finder" feature. See what's going on in your area.

 

[David E]

Remember, you're not shooting for center of the chest, you're shooting for the point that is going to give you the best penetration to major internal organs.

This reminds me of one idiot gunwriter/cop that totally dismissed the "aim for center of mass" principle.

To illustrate his point, he said something like: "If the badguy is facing you, fine, center-of-mass works, but if he turns sideways while he's shooting at you, what now? Do you move until you can see the center of his chest/center-of-mass before you shoot?"

He totally didn't understand the elementary COM concept, but he's a firearms/tactics instructor for his dept???

"Center-of-mass" is simply the center of the part of the target that's presented to you, not the center of his chest. Sometimes, these are one and the same, but sometimes not. If a badguy has his back to me but is presenting an immediate deadly threat to someone, I'd be justified in shooting him in the center of his back.

 

[Deaf Smith]

W.E.G. is right.

Accuracy is necessary, and so is speed.

Here is a suggestion. Besides IDPA you need to stress yourself.

If you can go to the outdoor range by yourself, do 50 yard sprints, pushups, punching bag routines, sit-ups, etc... and then draw and shoot close range targets.

If you have a swinger type target or bobber or mover, that will help even more.

What I'm getting at is not only a dynamic range, but the need to get you tired out before the shooting starts. It helps your concentration as it forces you to concentrate while tired.

We do alot of that in Krav Maga (no guns) but I do that on the outdoor range around here by myself with my carry gear.

 

[ChaoSS]

The problem with small aiming points is that, for defensive purposes, it slows you down too much.

While hitting the second shirt button on the badguys shirt might be ideal, I'd be stupid to NOT take a faster shot that hits 3" wide of it.

Just because you are aiming for it doesn't mean you'll hit it. However, if you fix your eye on that little button, and aim there as fast as you can, it'll be just as fast as if you aim "somewhere COM", and you'll likely hit closer to real COM than just aiming for a general area.


The general idea is that that if you're a little bit off aiming for an exact point, it's better than being a little off aiming for a big point. It's not an issue of slowing down so that you hit that one button, it's just an issue of narrowing your focus.

 

[JoeSlomo]

A paper plate sized target area is realistic depending on range imo...

Within 5 meters, you can do better without much speed loss.

At 7 and beyond, that's acceptable to me depending on the speed involved.

Accuracy is always relative to speed, and you can't have one without the other.

 

[uspJ]

A paper plate sized target area is realistic depending on range imo...

Within 5 meters, you can do better without much speed loss.

At 7 and beyond, that's acceptable to me depending on the speed involved.

Accuracy is always relative to speed, and you can't have one without the other.

i never really thought about how the plate would be more or less realistic depending on the range. if you have a 9 in. target at 5 yards it still remains 9 in. at 500 yards. of course the perceived size gets smaller as distance increases but imo if its realistic at 15 yards it's just as real at 1 yard.

i've held the plate to my chest as well as others who have went shooting and depending on the size of the person it covered any where from the heart, partial lungs to heart lungs and partial diaphragm.

 

[Fred Fuller]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=502751

Put a tee shirt on your marked cardboard/paper target and shoot your drill. Can't manage even thrift store tee shirts? Then use a plastic garbage bag big enough to fit the target, with a hole in the bottom for the target's 'head' to go through.

Remove the tee shirt/garbage bag and check your hits in the marked zones after you shoot your drill.

Get 3-D targets ( http://speedwelltargets.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=466 ) and do the same thing.

Learn to hit vital zones using anatomical landmarks to direct your aim, not marked targets. On the street, your targets will not have SHOOT ME HERE signs emblazoned upon them, nor will they have "vital areas" marked for your convenience... better to train and practice for what you will be called upon to perform in the street IMHO.

fwiw,

lpl

 

[mrokern]

I'm going to throw in a plug for a fellow instructor here in MN who came up with a target system that I really prefer. FYI, I get zero kickback for these, I'm just a satisfied user of these targets.

GITS Targets

Look at the GITS-3 target.

-Mark

 

[David E]

It's not an issue of slowing down so that you hit that one button, it's just an issue of narrowing your focus.

I agree with the concept of "picking your spot" or "narrowing your focus," but the trick is learning what is "acceptable."

If it's an IPSC target, anywhere in the "A" zone counts the same as one dead center in the "A" zone. Once that concept is learned, speed increases.