Reloading Drill Question

[skt239]

Reload Drill Question
Hello all,

I do a good bit of dry fire practice with my carry pistol (S&W M&P 9c) and use the same drills during my live fire practice. I draw from concealment and fire from different position and distances, trying to think of the most realistic scenarios without getting too fancy.

One part of my drills is reloading. I'll do a string of reloads, firing a few shots, stepping to the side and reloading. My question, should I be training to rack the slide after reloading, every time, even when the gun isn't empty? Part of me thinks its just easier to train to run the slide no matter what, however, I also wonder if doing so is inviting a potential failure. For instance, wet, injured or bloody handed attempts that slip off the slide...

Over thinking? I feel like its a valid question and I'm interested in reading everyone replies.

Thanks.

Shadi.

(Posted over at TFL as well)

 

[9mmepiphany]

Part of me thinks its just easier to train to run the slide no matter what, however, I also wonder if doing so is inviting a potential failure. For instance, wet, injured or bloody handed attempts that slip off the slide...

Easier, yes; good idea, no...but not for the reason you are imagining.

Assuming you are racking with a hand gripping over the top of the slide, while it doesn't take longer, you are giving up a round that can be useful.

A bigger question would be are you assuming that you wouldn't be able tell if there is a round in the chamber?

Wouldn't your emergency reload be in response to a locked back slide or to a failure to fire when you pulled the trigger...indicating an empty chamber?
...or a tactical reload during a lull in the action...when you know the chamber is loaded?

An over hand racking of the slide should be a technique which is resistant to slippery hands, with an injured hand, you should be racking the slide with the rear sight on another surface

 

[skt239]

Thanks for the response. I always use a over handed grip when racking the slide and was thinking in terms of a tactical reload during a lull in the action.

 

[Warp]

I treat an emergency or slide lock reload differently from a tactical reload.

Emergency reload...hand over to drop the slide.

Tactical reload...totally not necessary.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

Never shoot your firearm dry,,,Tactical reload unless it's not possible. Learn how to use coarse movements ,not fine movements to function your firearm...practice loading and operation one handed now instead of when you need to do it under fire.......

 

[9mmepiphany]

Thanks for the response. I always use a over handed grip when racking the slide and was thinking in terms of a tactical reload during a lull in the action.

You see a more specific question...or at least more details in the question...will bring more helpful answers.

In a tactical reload, you should not be at slide lock, so you know you have at least one round in the chamber...no need to rack the slide. Why would you think otherwise?

If you are unsure that there is a round in the chamber, because you tend to ride the slide stop, rack the slide...after all, you are doing it during a lull.

A funny coincidence over the weekend at a local Action Pistol match. Everytime a certain shooter changed magazines, he racked the slide and ejected a live round...we just figured he was new and had limited training

 

[skt239]

9mm,

Not sure why I would think otherwise but it's something I was curious about.

 

[Jeff22]

always racking the slide after a reload?

In the 1980s and 1990s the Heckler & Koch International Training Division was very influential in police training in the US (this was when the MP5 SMG was very popular with police tactical teams) H&K had a lot of outstanding instructors and classes. {When H&K shut down their training division, many of their instructors joined an organization called the Team One Network.]

Due to a weird design flaw, H&K system long guns (MP5, HK91 and HK93, etc) DID NOT LOCK THE BOLT OPEN WHEN THE MAGAZINE WAS EMPTY. So, they trained their students to ALWAYS cycle the action upon a reload to make sure that they had a round in the chamber.

That made perfect sense if you were operating those long guns with that peculiarity of design. Does it make sense for all weapons all the time?

We just had this discussion at a pistol match a few weeks ago. A new shooter (who was running a Glock 17) was always racking the slide after a reload, even after accomplishing an in-battery reload where a round was already in the chamber. So he kept ejecting a live round to the deck after each reload.

He'd gone to some introductory training with a local instructor and that instructor advocated doing that so that you were always certain you had a round in the chamber.

I can see arguments both ways for doing that. I have also seen shooters do that and manage to create a malfunction because they did not cycle the slide with sufficient vigor.

I don't do that, but I don't necessarily think you're wrong if you DO do that, just know the why's and why nots

 

[Blackstone]

If you are performing a tactical reload during a lull, and you want to ensure you have a round chambered, why not just do a press check followed by tapping the slide to ensure the gun is in battery? Throwing away good rounds is not optimal.

 

[9mmepiphany]

9mm,

Not sure why I would think otherwise but it's something I was curious about.

Mine wasn't a criticism as much as a question of the basis for the question.

When teaching, newer shooters commonly have ideas that are not in common practice, but are based on valid perceptions. Any instructor who is closed to new thought on how things are done, isn't a very good teacher.

It was through this process that I discovered the logical reason for the H&K ad that pictured the rounds loaded into a USP magazine backwards. The client was an engineering major and his reasoning was sound given his understanding, at that time, of how pistols worked

 

[9mmepiphany]

Due to a weird design flaw, H&K system long guns (MP5, HK91 and HK93, etc) DID NOT LOCK THE BOLT OPEN WHEN THE MAGAZINE WAS EMPTY. So, they trained their students to ALWAYS cycle the action upon a reload to make sure that they had a round in the chamber.

I remember those platforms. The MP-5, as well as the H&K 91/93, had manual of arms that seems odd today, but wasn't too far out back then. The AK platform runs the same way...and was the most numerous/common rifle at the time

 

[David E]

Several things:

The OP "fires a few rounds" then ducks behind cover and does a reload. Why? There are many other skills to work in besides training yourself to reload after just "a few rounds."

"Never shoot your gun dry" sounds sagely tactical online or while discussing such things around the kitchen table, but what if you need to fire that last round to stop the problem? Or there just isn't time to reload when you "want" to?

As far as racking a slide that's forward, noted trainer John Farnam teaches that technique. His reason is mainly because you can't be 100% sure the chamber is loaded. Perhaps the slide failed to lock for numerous reasons. Therefore, rack the slide firmly and sharply once the fresh mag is seated. You could very well eject a live round, but that is offset by the fact you KNOW you have a chambered round. And in the current world of hicap magazines, losing one round doesn't mean what it once did.

People trash loaded chamber indicators, but the ones that are tactile and visible can certainly assist in ascertaining if the chamber is loaded or not.

 

[strambo]

I guess I don't see it as being a real-world issue. Most likely under the stress of combat you won't be counting rounds which means an emergency reload from slide lock. If you have a situation where you are choosing to do a tactical reload, you are making a conscious choice to top off the gun with time/distance/cover to do so, so no need to rack the slide.

If the slide is forward and the chamber is empty, you probably know this because the gun went "click" otherwise, how would the situation occur in a gunfight where you are choosing to reload with a slide forward but the chamber empty? I understand a thumb riding the slide lock by mistake so it doesn't lock back, I don't understand how this can happen w/o knowing it because you would think you still had a round and only find out by squeezing the trigger. On the rare occasions this happens to me it is still a slide lock reload because when the gun goes click, I do a malfunction drill which locks the slide back and tells me what happened.

I guess the stars could align where when you accidentally ride the slide lock on the last round so the slide stays forward, but you also no longer need to shoot anymore so you don't know the chamber is empty. Seems like real long odds of that happening, dumping and entire mag and choosing to stop at the last round coinciding with a simultaneous failure to lock back.

 

[Warp]

Several things:

The OP "fires a few rounds" then ducks behind cover and does a reload. Why?

Well, for starters, those "few rounds" that you fired could have been 3, or 8, or 10, or who knows. It is not uncommon for somebody involved in a defensive/LE shoot to think they only fired a couple or few rounds, only to find out they went through several times more than that, after the fact.

As for how you get into that situation, I don't think people are expecting to fire three shots and then immediately duck down and reload just because. Potential real world example: You are faced with a threat, you fire a succession of shots that put the threat on the ground. You take cover, check your surroundings, and then do a 'tactical reload', because you still can't be sure that he doesn't have a buddy (or more) around there somewhere.

 

[David E]

If the slide is forward and the chamber is empty, you probably know this because the gun went "click" otherwise, how would the situation occur in a gunfight where you are choosing to reload with a slide forward but the chamber empty?

Presumably, because a reload was performed at the first opportunity and the slide was forward.

Editing until it's necessary to pull the trigger on a deadly, imminent threat is not the best time to discover your chamber is empty.

 

[David E]

Well, for starters, those "few rounds" that you fired could have been 3, or 8, or 10, or who knows. It is not uncommon for somebody involved in a defensive/LE shoot to think they only fired a couple or few rounds, only to find out they went through several times more than that, after the fact.

As for how you get into that situation, I don't think people are expecting to fire three shots and then immediately duck down and reload just because. Potential real world example: You are faced with a threat, you fire a succession of shots that put the threat on the ground. You take cover, check your surroundings, and then do a 'tactical reload', because you still can't be sure that he doesn't have a buddy (or more) around there somewhere.

I'm not knocking the idea in general, only that the OP might be setting himself up by consciously firing "just a few shots" before doing it.

And, as stated, there are other things more important to work on. How is his accuracy? Speed? Followup shots? Tactics? Etc.

I don't advocate "tactical" reloads where retaining the partial mag is a priority.

 

[Warp]

I'm not knocking the idea in general, only that the OP might be setting himself up by consciously firing "just a few shots" before doing it.

And, as stated, there are other things more important to work on. How is his accuracy? Speed? Followup shots? Tactics? Etc.

I don't advocate "tactical" reloads where retaining the partial mag is a priority.

I'm still on the fence regarding a tac reload where you retain the partial mag.

Pros:
You have that magazine and those rounds, 'just in case'. Having more ammo is pretty much never a bad thing, after all.

Cons:
Takes longer
More complex, more opportunity to fumble

And there are two main ways in which to do that type of reload. Option A: Do you retrieve the new mag, then remove the old, insert the new, store the old...in which case, when done correctly, you have a shorter period of time with no mag in the gun. BUT the greatest chance of fumbling, because you are manipulating two different magazines in one hand at the same time.

Option B: Or you can remove the mag from the gun, store it, then retrieve the new and put it in the gun. You spend a longer time with no mag in the gun, but you only have to manipulate one mag at a time and the chances of fumbling the process are reduced.

I've taken to doing option C, which is to do it 'speed reload' style, for the absolute minimum amount of time with no mag in the gun. Retrieve new mag while dropping old free, insert new. If time and situation allows, pick the mag up off the ground and store it. Or if you don't feel like doing it, then just say screw it and leave it on the ground.

 

[strambo]

I've taken to doing option C, which is to do it 'speed reload' style, for the absolute minimum amount of time with no mag in the gun. Retrieve new mag while dropping old free, insert new. If time and situation allows, pick the mag up off the ground and store it. If not, or if you don't feel like doing it, then screw it.

I figure time and situation does allow for retention or I wouldn't be choosing to do a Tac reload in the first place. It is pretty fast to do. There is also the risk of damaging or losing the dropped mag. Heavy partially filled mags are likely to get damaged being dropped on a hard surface.

I also never understood the mantra of sticking the partial mag in a pocket and not a mag pouch because "pouches are only for full mags." What good is there to an empty mag pouch and a partial mag you may need in a hard to get pocket? How many mag pouches does one carry CCW? I just carry one, so the partial mag goes in the pouch. If I carried 2, the partial would go in the back. Maybe that isn't commonly taught, but I was taught that before a long time ago and never followed it.

Thankfully, a gunfight isn't likely going to come down to reloading technique, so long as what you do is practiced and efficient, any of the commonly accepted methods will work. For every hypothetical where technique "A" makes sense, there is a hypothetical where "B" would be better and so on.

 

[Warp]

I figure time and situation does allow for retention or I wouldn't be choosing to do a Tac reload in the first place. It is pretty fast to do. There is also the risk of damaging or losing the dropped mag. Heavy partially filled mags are likely to get damaged being dropped on a hard surface.

I also never understood the mantra of sticking the partial mag in a pocket and not a mag pouch because "pouches are only for full mags." What good is there to an empty mag pouch and a partial mag you may need in a hard to get pocket? How many mag pouches does one carry CCW? I just carry one, so the partial mag goes in the pouch. If I carried 2, the partial would go in the back. Maybe that isn't commonly taught, but I was taught that before a long time ago and never followed it.

Thankfully, a gunfight isn't likely going to come down to reloading technique, so long as what you do is practiced and efficient, any of the commonly accepted methods will work. For every hypothetical where technique "A" makes sense, there is a hypothetical where "B" would be better and so on.

I don't understand that either. To me, "pouches are for spare mags". If my spare mag is a partial, then so be it. I suspect that comes from the guys who are either full on combat arms military or perhaps on a LE tactical type team where they have a ton of gear (or guys who gear up in that manner to go to the range), where they have a boatload of spare mags, and don't want a partial if and when they go for yet another mag. Hence the popularity of either dump pouches or taking the time to go all administrative and organize your damn spare mags so that the partial is in the pouch you reach to last (or perhaps for a tac reload you take the time to retreive from your last, most difficult pouch, and then put the partial back there, but we are getting pretty complex now and this doesn't really apply to regular guys carrying concealed daily)

But for me it is an irrelevant point ~99% of the time, because 99% of the time I am carrying concealed and have only one spare magazine, IWB, behind my hip, and it is far too difficult to put a magazine in that pouch (which makes practicing from it at the range a PITA), I basically have to undo my belt to it back in...so if I retain a partial mag it goes in a pocket or shoved into my waistband or belt.

 

[David E]

People should know how to do a tactical reload, but I think it should be called an "administrative" reload for those times you need to fully charge the gun when no bullets were flying your way. Like, you're at home loading your gun before going out.

If you carry one mag then you can stow the partial in your one pouch. But if you carry 2 spares, the back pouch should still have a mag in it. You don't want to have a 1 shot reload if you put the partial in the front pouch. Besides, putting it in the pouch takes longer.

The purpose of any reload is to get as many rounds in the gun in the shortest amount of time. Fiddling with partial mags is in conflict with that goal.

What's the alleged purpose for retaining a partial mag, anyway? Oh, right, in case you expend all your other rounds, you'll have the 1-6 in the partial that you stuck....where, again? "Oh, here it is," >slam-rack-BANG!<. "Whew, that was close!"

I once asked Walt Rauch, a man of considerable experience and knowledge of such things (and original Board member of IDPA) if he knew of ANY non-military situation where a gunfight participant did a Tac laid and later used the saved rounds in the same fight EVER happened. He got a wry smile and said, "Maybe..."

If anyone has knowledge of such a situation, I'd sure love to hear about it.

 

[Blue Thunder]

I have LCI's on all my guns now and do not do press checks. In a stressful situation with the adrenalin flowing your press check may turn into an ejected round and other issues. If I shoot to slide lock, I do the emergency reload and hit the slide release to run the slide home with a fresh bullet. Never had an issue doing this. There is more than one Gunfighting school out there that teaches hand over top of slide rack for every mag change, I do not do this.

 

[Warp]

I have LCI's on all my guns now and do not do press checks. In a stressful situation with the adrenalin flowing your press check may turn into an ejected round and other issues. If I shoot to slide lock, I do the emergency reload and hit the slide release to run the slide home with a fresh bullet. Never had an issue doing this. There is more than one Gunfighting school out there that teaches hand over top of slide rack for every mag change, I do not do this.

What are LCI's?

 

[GarySTL]

Loaded chamber indicator

 

[Al Thompson]

If anyone has knowledge of such a situation, I'd sure love to hear about it.

Tom Givens mentioned in class (last March) that as of that time, neither he nor Mas Ayoob had documented such an action.

 

[Warp]

And yet there are groups/orgs that penalize people for dropping a mag with any rounds in it at all on the ground. lol