Reloading Drill Question

[Fred Fuller]

And yet there are groups/orgs that penalize people for dropping a mag with any rounds in it at all on the ground.

Yet so far, those groups/orgs don't shoot back at you while you do it... it isn't gun games we talk about here, it's gunFIGHTS.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am leery of racking the slide when I don't have to.
I perceive that a failure to feed is likelier when hand cycling the slide than when letting the recoil run the gun.

 

[David E]

Tom Givens mentioned in class (last March) that as of that time, neither he nor Mas Ayoob had documented such an action.

Add Walt Rauch to that.

The goal is to get the gun fully up and running in the shortest amount of time. Peruse the net or YouTube for all the various methods of doing a Tac Load. Some methods are downright stupid and some of these are promulgated by high profile instructors.

Anytime the "instructor" has you withdraw the spare mag using a different hand/finger position, it should be ignored. ("Grab the spare between the pinky and ring finger....")

Many of the methods inexplicably grant a higher priority to the partial magazine instead of the fully loaded one! And/or stowing the partial over getting the gun up and ready. It makes no sense. Especially in light of the fact that NO documented incidents exist where the retained rounds were used later in the same incident.

Wasting valuable training time perfecting a near worthless technique (as applied in gunfights) needs to be spent on more important gun fighting skills.

 

[Warp]

And yet there are groups/orgs that penalize people for dropping a mag with any rounds in it at all on the ground.

Yet so far, those groups/orgs don't shoot back at you while you do it... it isn't gun games we talk about here, it's gunFIGHTS.

Shooting back seems like it would be a bit more difficult to incorporate than simply not adding apparently-silly rules.

 

[3rdmonkey]

If you are training for REAL defensive situations you have to be consistent!! My carry gun holds 15 in the mag plus one in the pipe...if I'm reloading I've got myself into a stupid situation! If there is a lull, and the option exists, I'm breaking contact! I shoot to slide lock before I reload as that is how I was trained...I rack the slide the SAME way every time, whether it be a reload or stoppage clear! Unless I have an injury! If you keep adding techniques that accomplish the same goal, pretty soon your mind will be overloaded! You won't realize this till the first shot is fired and your mind shuts down trying to decide what technique to use! Keep it simple and CONSISTENT!!

 

[9mmepiphany]

And yet there are groups/orgs that penalize people for dropping a mag with any rounds in it at all on the ground. lol

Sometimes it helps when you remember the context.

This was a time when the 1911 was king, 7 round magazines were the norm and Cooper's Modern Technique still held sway.

In 5 days at Gunsite, other then when it was taught or during shootoffs, I didn't do but a handful of Speed Reloads...it was just part of that culture

 

[Fred Fuller]

Keep it simple and CONSISTENT!!

Should be graven in stone... and on the hearts of folks who carry pistols.

 

[Warp]

Consistency is a great thing.

 

[short barrel]

I think the crucial issue about reloading is knowing how many rounds you have left, which is done only by counting. Only by counting can we make the best decision about reloading. Most every shooting video on YouTube depicts a person shooting until is gun is empty, then he tries to shoot one more. Only by actually running out does he know he's out. That ain't good. If you know for sure you have two rounds remaining and there is a lull, just drop the magazine, forget it, and reload.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Anyone who can count rounds in a gunfight is cooler than the average cucumber...

 

[David E]

I think the crucial issue about reloading is knowing how many rounds you have left, which is done only by counting. Only by counting can we make the best decision about reloading. Most every shooting video on YouTube depicts a person shooting until is gun is empty, then he tries to shoot one more. Only by actually running out does he know he's out. That ain't good. If you know for sure you have two rounds remaining and there is a lull, just drop the magazine, forget it, and reload.

But you WON'T know "for sure."

I'm not going to clutter my mind with such inconsequentials when I'm shooting someone who is actively trying to kill me. Preventing him from completing his violent attack deserves my full attention.

 

[Warp]

I think the crucial issue about reloading is knowing how many rounds you have left, which is done only by counting. Only by counting can we make the best decision about reloading. Most every shooting video on YouTube depicts a person shooting until is gun is empty, then he tries to shoot one more. Only by actually running out does he know he's out. That ain't good. If you know for sure you have two rounds remaining and there is a lull, just drop the magazine, forget it, and reload.

That doesn't work in a real world gunfight or defensive gun use, according to pretty much 100% of the people who have been there done that.

 

[arspeukinen]

always rack. Keep it simple. Name of the game is "same."

 

[Hangingrock]

Sometimes it helps when you remember the context.This was a time when the 1911 was king, 7 round magazines were the norm and Cooper's Modern Technique still held sway.

“Correct combat procedure with the auto pistol is to reload with a full magazine whenever there is a pause, regardless of how many rounds remain in the original magazine". - Jeff Cooper – The Complete Book of Modern Handgunning 1961- Page Number 79 - (53Yrs in the past)

 

[strambo]

I practice Tac reloads irregardless if it has ever mattered in an actual gunfight. Why? Because it seems silly to me to finish a gunfight (or think it's finished) and continue to walk around with a partially empty gun.

I think if you have reason to suspect there are still active threats (even if it is a "lull"), any method to get the gun quickly topped off is sound. If you can tac-reload fast and retain the mag great. If you dump it, speed reload then grab it if you can, fine.

However, if you think you have handled all the active threats (all down, or ran away, or you retreated out of danger) and are Tac-loading to be cautious, it doesn't make sense to me to dump the partial on the deck and maybe break it or rack out a round already in the chamber.

I only have 2 reloads. Emergency where I always rack the chamber and a Tac-reload where I grab my fresh magazine the way I always do (index finger on the front-bullet tips forward), slip it between my index and middle finger when it gets to the gun, eject the partial in my palm and seat the fresh one, put the partial back in the pouch. It is very fast and easy to accomplish esp. since you aren't being shot at or anything, not sure why it gets made out to be slow and/or difficult?

I think IDPA gives the Tac reload a bad name/impression because it is an on the clock competition, so competitors are sprinting from location to location while simultaneously doing mandated Tac-reloads at hyper speeds where in real life you wouldn't be Tac loading there. You would be continuing to engage the known threats instead. Offhand, I have never heard of a prolonged civilian gunfight. So, you get into it with 1-3 bad actors, exchange gunfire then it is over in a few seconds. The tac reload truly would be after you think it's over because it is, you're doing it just in case. LE can get into prolonged gunfights and have but they are also rare.

In reality-as a civilian you would be shooting until it's over, if you hit slide lock in between, doing an emergency reload and continuing. After it's over, you can choose to do a Tac reload if you have a spare mag (or not, up to you).

From the perspective of how the mind works under high stress, the only way to have enough conscious control in a gunfight to count rounds is to get in enough of them that you can control your adrenaline dump/response enough to do so. Each time you experience an adrenaline dump and perform, you get better and better at it. The first time is almost all subconscious reaction based on training or fear/instinct if you don't have training. Each time after, you are in more control and can exert more conscious control in your reactions. The problem is, most people don't get into the 1 gunfight, much less enough to really get good at it!

 

[Warp]

Emergency where I always rack the chamber and a Tac-reload where I grab my fresh magazine the way I always do (index finger on the front-bullet tips forward), slip it between my index and middle finger when it gets to the gun, eject the partial in my palm and seat the fresh one, put the partial back in the pouch. It is very fast and easy to accomplish esp. since you aren't being shot at or anything, not sure why it gets made out to be slow and/or difficult?

Well, it is slower and more difficult than not retaining the magazine.

 

[strambo]

Well, it is slower and more difficult than not retaining the magazine.

Sure, but outside military combat or perhaps a prolonged LE gunfight, the gunfight is (believed to be) over when you are doing it.

 

[Warp]

Sure, but outside military combat or perhaps a prolonged LE gunfight, the gunfight is (believed to be) over when you are doing it.

I don't know that that is necessarily true.

If you truly believed that it was over, why would you be reloading instead of carefully holstering? After all, as a private citizen in a defensive shooting (in public), you run the risk of being mis-identified as a threat, the quicker you can get the gun out of your hand, the better.

 

[David E]

If you believe it's over, RELOAD!

(Because it may not be over....)

 

[strambo]

Warp, why would you re-holster a partially loaded weapon (other than to perform an admin task of immediate need like first aid etc)? Wouldn't you top it off first? Your 1st gunfight may have just happened, but nothing says your 2nd can't happen in the next few moments.

I was taught to "reluctantly re-holster", I'm actually not in a hurry to re-holster it. Besides, my emergency reload takes about a second. Tac-reload is about 3, it isn't a deal-breaker. I can immediate scan the front 180 deg, scan the back 180 deg, Tac-reload and holster in 8 seconds or so, the LE response time isn't that fast...if it was, it would have been their gunfight and I would have been a professionally interested observer.

 

[Warp]

Warp, why would you re-holster a partially loaded weapon

I already answered that.

Context here is critical. Follow the conversation. Somebody said that he didn't get why a tac reload with magazine retention was considered slow/difficult. I pointed out that it is slower and more difficult than not retaining the magazine. That somebody then implied that it being slower and more difficult wouldn't an issue since you believed it to be over.

My point was that if you are going to use the "it's over" belief to explain why you do something slow and difficult...why are you doing it at all? If it's over, put the gun away.

But as you say it very well might not be over, which is why it is quite relevant to point out that retaining the partial magazine IS slower and more difficult.

I was taught to "reluctantly re-holster", I'm actually not in a hurry to re-holster it. Besides, my emergency reload takes about a second. Tac-reload is about 3, it isn't a deal-breaker.

Perhaps that isn't a deal breaker. But if your second gunfight is about to start when the former-threat's buddy shows up, any additional time, even just a second or two, where your firearm does not have a magazine inserted could be important.

We seem to have established that nobody knows of a situation where the partial, retained magazine was later used. I wonder if anybody knows of a situation where a non-slidelock reload was performed, and then more shots were fired. I would suspect the answer is yes.

I can immediate scan the front 180 deg, scan the back 180 deg, Tac-reload and holster in 8 seconds or so, the LE response time isn't that fast...if it was, it would have been their gunfight and I would have been a professionally interested observer.

I would try not to assume such things, myself.

Believe it or not there are LEOs out and about in the world and it is certainly possible that one could be rather close and respond to the sound of gunfire, or yelling or screaming, or whatever commotion was going on. Lots of things can happen. As a plainclothes regular Joe private citizen I do believe it is, whenever possible, in your own best interest not to be standing with a gun in hand...especially after shots have been fired...and especially if somebody has been shot.

 

[strambo]

It's all about perceived risk vs. perceived benefit because we will never have any real-world data to show one thought process is better than the other.

Does the perceived risk of a sudden LE arrival/mis-understanding outweigh the perceived risk of getting into gunfight #2 with a partially loaded gun?

Does the perceived risk of having a holstered gun when badguy #3 comes around the corner and you holstered it fast worried about a LE mis-understanding outweigh the risk of said mis-understanding?

Your points are also at odds, on the one hand you are against the traditional Tac-reload as it is too slow (and there may be other threats), on the other hand in a hurry to holster a partially full gun (and there may be other threats).

Who knows? I think every responsible armed person should seek out competent training and should be well-practiced in drawing, firing, and reloading. Exactly how and when they apply those probably won't make a difference. Being decisive and not hesitating to fight until there are no longer any threats will.

I hope nobody takes this debate too seriously, it is minutia provided a person has some good quality training and a decent amount of practice in whatever method they feel best.

 

[David E]

As I've said, the OP would benefit more by practicing other gun related skills over the Tac-load.

 

[Jeff22]

Tactical reloads in IDPA

Strambo commented: "I think IDPA gives the Tac reload a bad name/impression because it is an on the clock competition, so competitors are sprinting from location to location while simultaneously doing mandated Tac-reloads at hyper speeds"

If we're going to have a worthwhile discussion on this topic we have to have our facts straight. In IDPA shooting a tactical reload or reload with retention is ALWAYS done behind cover. Such a reload CANNOT be performed while moving.

In IPSC or USPSA shooting you can reload while moving. Tac reloads or reloads with retention are never required so nobody ever does.

Also in IDPA matches you can have only two reloads and you most often shoot from concealment. In IPSC or USPSA matches you can carry as many reloads as you want. IDPA stages are usually 12 to 18 rounds. IPSC stages are often about the same. USPSA (which is American IPSC with slightly different rules) often has stages of 18 to 32 rounds.

People shoot in matches for different reasons. My orientation is defensive. I prefer the IDPA philosophy but often shoot USPSA matches as well because my home club has such matches & is not yet affiliated with IDPA.

 

[Jeff22]

The tactical reload

I'm not sure who invented the tactical reload (aka " the battlefield reload" ) but I believe that it was popularized by Chuck Taylor when he was teaching for Jeff Cooper at API/Gunsite in the late 70s & very early 80s.

I believe the first time I ever heard about the tactical reload was in articles that Chuck Taylor wrote for Soldier of Fortune Magazine in 1979 or 80. (Which was about the time I got involved in IPSC shooting and shortly before I became a cop.)

I took a defensive handgun & shotgun class from John Farnam of defense training international in July of 1982. I know for certain that we were instructed on performing tactical reloads with both auto pistols & revolvers.

John provided detailed written material to his students (I still have copies of all that stuff). This material was later expanded into fundamentals of defensive Shooting and later onThe Farnam method of Defensive Handgunning.

The tactical reload was demonstrated with pictures in the 1982 1st edition of Chuck Taylor's book The Complete Book of Combat Handgunning. (First edition produced by Desert Publications. The book was subsequently reissued by Paladin Press)


Massad Ayoob also discussed the tactical reload in his 1984 book Stressfire.