Active Shooter Training: Lessons from...

[9mmepiphany]

In addition, operators should be trained to ask relevant questions so the officers entering the building would know if there were armed defenders, and where they were.

If you have a weapon out, you are a potential threat to responding officers, who may even receive your description as the shooter.

It is just by happenstance that these two post follow each other, but it does bring up a couple of points that are often overlooked.

It would be very common for someone to see a person with a gun stalking about and think they are the shooter. If given a chance, I'm sure they would give that description to officers as that of the active shooter.

Anyone who has worked much time investigating crimes know that the least reliable evidence is that given by eye witnesses. Not only will they tell you what they think you want to hear (looking for approval), but they will tell you what they believe they saw, even if they didn't see it...they imagination fills in the blanks and they really believe they saw something that they didn't

 

[GEM]

It's all very nice to say that the police and dispatchers ask relevant questions in an ongoing horror show and then suggest prosecutions for mistakes.

Check out the verbal interchange in this bizarre attack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgS0KgT5APc

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=8txnZS9N2gWmu96mZKHlhg&bvm=bv.62578216,d.b2I

This is a state document so probably isn't copyrighted.

Transcript Of Chimp Attack 911 Call
POSTED: 3:32 pm EST February 18, 2009
DISPATCHER: Stamford 911 where's you're emergency?
HEROLD: Inaudible...241 rock, Rockrimmon Road (chimp
begins screaming) send the police!
DISPATCHER: What's the problem? (chimp screaming)
HEROLD: Send the police (chimp screaming)
DISPATCHER: What's the problem there? (chimp
screaming)
HEROLD: The, that the chimp killed my, my friend
DISPATCHER: What's wrong with your friend? (chimp
screaming)
HEROLD: (gasps, breathing hard, presses button) (chimp
screaming)
DISPATHER: What's the problem with your friend? (chimp
screaming)
HEROLD: Oh, please!
(Chimp heard screaming in background)
DISPATCHER: What's the problem with your friend, I need
to know. (chimp screaming)
HEROLD: Send the police up with a gun, with a gun, hurry
up! (chimp screaming)
DISPATCHER: Who has the gun?
HEROLD: Please hurry up! Please hurry up! He's killin' my
girlfriend
DISPATCHER TO POLICE: 241 Rockrimmon Road they're
sayin' someone has a gun and trying to kill somebody.
HEROLD: Hurry up!
DISPATCHER: They're on their way, but I need you to give
me more information, who's doing this?
HEROLD: Inaudible...with guns!
DISPATCHER: Who has the guns?
HEROLD: No! Bring the guns! Ya gotta kill my
chimp...inaudible
DISPATCHER: What's the problem there?

Confusion reigns. So to expect clarity of identification of the armed civilian is nice for the Internet but not reality.

Look at the Amy Bishop case - in that one the shooter was a faculty member. If she wasn't brought down and killed everyone in the room, she could have strolled out as an armed protector and yelled for help to get the BG who ran away.

The point is that in a dynamic situation - as an armed civilian - you have to be extremely careful. The after action report and law suit doesn't raise you from the dead or law suit.

 

[Trent]

If you're unarmed, you're unable to defend yourself and the bag guy kills you.

If you're armed the police kill you.

Hmmmm. . .

There is an easy solution to that. Use your phone, call 911, and tell dispatcher that an armed citizen is on site, holed up {wherever}, and waiting for police to show up. Relay the situation as you see it. Make sure the dispatcher knows to tell police there is an armed friendly on the scene, to reduce the chances you are shot by them.

When you hear cops approaching where you are holed up, YELL to them and say you are an armed civilian, VERIFY their identity, tell them you are coming out, keep your gun put up, expect to be handcuffed and frisked, and held for questioning. They'll have to finish clearing the building then come back to you to verify you are indeed not the shooter. Expect to be detained for awhile.

Don't come out of hiding with a gun in your hand... and don't go "hunting" the bad guy(s)...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

People who flee the scene are almost NEVER injured or wounded unless they have the extreme bad luck to run directly into the shooter. If there is the opportunity to get the heck out of dodge, TAKE IT.

Amen!

If that doesn't work, then barricade yourself into as impregnable of a position as you possibly can. I'm talking bookshelves in front of the door, backed up with large furniture etc. Heck if you weld the door short, DO SO. Then hunker down behind COVER that will stop a round. It should require the fire department to cut you out of your safe area. If you can manage this, the odds of being hurt or killed are very minimal.

Amen, again. Try to build a corner barricade. Choose the same wall the door is in, and on the side to which the door opens.

If someone forces the door, you have time to react while they're checking the parts of the room where you aren't.

Only as a very last resort should you attempt to take on the attacker. If you have a weapon system that will allow you some success, and are forced into proximity to the attacker, then by all means go for it. However I would HIGHLY recommend NOT going hunting in these types of situations.

Amen, once more. Your mission is to save your life, and perhaps others with you -- not to hunt down the bad guy.

If you have a weapon out, you are a potential threat to responding officers, who may even receive your description as the shooter. As an officer, if I was there in plain clothes, unless I was able to immediately engage the shooter, I would probably team up with responding officers rather then go it alone.

Correct. You should not engage unless forced to do so. A police officer might be required to be proactive, but not a civilian. Stay put, use your cell phone to inform the police of the situation, and use your firearm only as a last resort.

 

[Glocktogo]

If you're caught in an active shooter event, are armed and in plain clothes, the trick is to be UNARMED when the police make contact with you. An active shooter killing people is the one situation where the police are hunters, intent on downing a very bad guy presenting a continued lethal threat. If you present a threat you will most likely be shot, period. Don't expect any verbal commands if you're armed, expect incoming rounds.

If you're armed when officers arrive and you get shot, the number one lesson learned in the after action report will be that you shouldn't have been armed at that moment. I don't care if you have to drop it in a trash can, in a desk drawer, behind a cabinet, whatever. Just don't present to the police with a gun in hand. That would be a HUGE mistake on your part. This applies to anyone in plain clothes, whther you're an officer or CCW.

You can discuss communications, identifiers, legal ramifications all you want, none of it will matter in the chaos of the moment. All that will matter is whether you present a perceived threat or not. In the heat of the moment, every other thing takes a back seat.

 

[JRH6856]

There is an easy solution to that. Use your phone, call 911, and tell dispatcher that an armed citizen is on site, holed up {wherever}, and waiting for police to show up. Relay the situation as you see it. Make sure the dispatcher knows to tell police there is an armed friendly on the scene, to reduce the chances you are shot by them.

That's not really an easy solution if your call is just one of 20 or 30 coming in. What makes your call more valid than the rest? I am reminded of the 6 blind men describing the elephant--each can only describe the part of the elephant that he can perceive. An active shooter situation in a school is the elephant and with the prevalence of personal phones, there will most certainly be more than 6 blind men describing only the portion of the situation of which they are aware. The various descriptions will almost certainly be a contradictory and confusing mish-mash of facts and imagination. We saw this with the initial calls from Sandy Hook and it happens to varying degrees anytime there are multiple complainants on the same incident.

When you hear cops approaching where you are holed up, YELL to them and say you are an armed civilian, VERIFY their identity, tell them you are coming out, keep your gun put up, expect to be handcuffed and frisked, and held for questioning. They'll have to finish clearing the building then come back to you to verify you are indeed not the shooter. Expect to be detained for awhile.

Don't come out of hiding with a gun in your hand... and don't go "hunting" the bad guy(s)...

This. It isn't an easy solution, but it is probably the best one available. When you are an armed defender, you need to defend yourself against all who are on the offense, and that includes responders. Defense in this case being keeping yourself from being shot.

 

[Trent]

That's not really an easy solution if your call is just one of 20 or 30 coming in. What makes your call more valid than the rest? I am reminded of the 6 blind men describing the elephant--each can only describe the part of the elephant that he can perceive. An active shooter situation in a school is the elephant and with the prevalence of personal phones, there will most certainly be more than 6 blind men describing only the portion of the situation of which they are aware. The various descriptions will almost certainly be a contradictory and confusing mish-mash of facts and imagination. We saw this with the initial calls from Sandy Hook and it happens to varying degrees anytime there are multiple complainants on the same incident.

Telling the 9-1-1 operator "I AM A CIVILIAN AND I AM ARMED" will probably get you through the dispatch and what they say may get past the random noise and radio chatter. 99.999% likely no one else who calls it in is going to be armed. Telling the 9-1-1 operator where you are at, that you are armed, number of shots fired that you've heard, number of gunmen, where they are at.. it'll get relayed.

Also my advice wasn't "school" specific. Valid for any encounter at home or away. (Guns are prohibited in IL on school grounds for CCL holders, so at least in my state, it's a moot issue anyway).

Concealed carry holders aren't in the majority by any means, and those who actually carry daily are even more remote than # of permit holders. Being a CCW who suddenly finds him/herself in an active shoot scene is kind of like getting struck by lightning twice; the stars have aligned for you, for better or worse.

Still on the most important point, we agreed; what you do when police are THERE, and on-scene, is incredibly important. in NRA personal protection classes there's a LOT of dialog about "what to do when police arrive." (Also covers what to say on the phone with police dispatch .. for what it's worth)

Giving good information on the phone is also very important so police aren't going in totally blind; declaring that you are a civilian who is armed with a handgun is important information.

After all, the COPS coming in, need to declare who THEY are as well, because you are still in defensive mode until you are able to successfully egress the situation.

(Again, in PPITH where we teach if you barricade yourself, the rule of thumb is to make sure and verify that it is really cops trying to get in to your room, and not a bad guy who is SAYING he's a cop...)

Staying on 9-1-1 for the duration of the event is important, if you are in immediate danger. Even if you put the phone down leave the line open so what happens is recorded.

 

[JRH6856]

Still on the most important point, we agreed;

I think we can agree on the first as well. I asked "what makes your call more valid than the rest?" You covered that pretty well. Calmly providing clear, concise, timely information can make you seem like the sighted man in the land of the blind. That will make your call stand out in the confusion.

 

[Jeff White]

Telling the 9-1-1 operator "I AM A CIVILIAN AND I AM ARMED" will probably get you through the dispatch and what they say may get past the random noise and radio chatter. 99.999% likely no one else who calls it in is going to be armed. Telling the 9-1-1 operator where you are at, that you are armed, number of shots fired that you've heard, number of gunmen, where they are at.. it'll get relayed.

Maybe it will get you through and maybe it won't. In a rural area a 911 call center might have one or maybe 2 tele-communicators on duty. When something like an active shooter incident happens the 911 lines get overwhelmed. Your call may ring and ring before a TC gets to it. The TC is going to have no way of knowing if you are a crank caller or actually at the scene.

Heck a bad accident on the interstate will tie up 911 here if it happens at a busy time of day. How many people in the school do you think might have cell phones? If it's a high school, policies notwithstanding, you can bet there will be dozens of calls from there. As soon as everyone in scannerland figures out what's going on the call volume will increase. What is liable to happen if the 911 center is co-located with a LE agency is someone will get pulled off a desk somewhere or maybe out of the jail to start answering phones. It's doubtful that whoever gets pressed into service for this duty will know the CAD (computer aided dispatch) system well enough to do more then to make pen and paper notes of what callers say. Your info may or may not get to the officers on the scene in a timely manner.

If you are on the scene and you are armed, if you don't want to get shot by the responding officers, the safest thing to do is to holster and conceal your weapon before making contact.

There will be someone outside the school talking to those people who made it out. If one of them saw you armed there is a good chance the responding offices have your description as the shooter.

Now what are the responding officers supposed to do? They are quite possibly getting your description as both the shooter or an armed civilian defender.

Until you've had to interview someone who has been part of a violent event in the first few minute after it happens you will really find it hard to understand how totally wrong their description of events can be.

I used to like to say that if you had an event with 4 witnesses you might get six different versions of what happened because at least two of them will change their story as they think about it some more.

Still on the most important point, we agreed; what you do when police are THERE, and on-scene, is incredibly important. in NRA personal protection classes there's a LOT of dialog about "what to do when police arrive." (Also covers what to say on the phone with police dispatch .. for what it's worth)

The thing is, an active shooter situation is not at alike any other instance where an officer is dealing with a legally armed private citizen. In an active shooter situation the officers are trained to stop the threat, to shoot. If they see an armed person they will engage. That is the standard now. It's about the only law enforcement situation that is that way.

If you are armed an on the scene of an active shooter incident, gather those around you and go into a defensive position or move for the nearest exit. Display your weapon only if you have to engage a threat. If you are barricaded up in a classroom, do not display your weapon as you are likely to be shot when the police enter the room.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Lot of great lessons in that training exercise.

Some thoughts on comments:

1. Wearing "Good Guy" clothing... should we get our CCW badges and "Good Guy" sashes to go with it? Active shooter response has responding officers on much more of a hair trigger than they would be on a more normal call. It would be foolish to rely on responding officers to recognize you as a "Good Guy." And if the shooter is familiar with the very public policies regarding the "Good Guy" sash... why, he can just get one himself, and now things are even more confusing.

2. Regardless of CCW permit holders on premises, officers do need training and reinforcement that there may be armed friendlies on the scene. Other responding officers from different agencies, an on-scene school resource officer who may or may not be wearing a uniform, a school staff member who retrieves a gun from the car, etc.

3. Regarding 2., it seems like it would be best for anyone who did find themselves armed in a school during an active shooter incident to immediately hunker down and only engage the shooter if the shooter comes to you. This would cut down on the risk of being shot by responding police and reduce erroneous 911 reports.

4. Communications is huge, both in favor of responders and against them. Every darn kid in a school these days will have a cell phone, and you can bet that there will be dozens and dozens of 911 calls all reporting conflicting information.

Despite this, as noted in the report, the sound of gunshots is not a reliable indicator of an active shooter, as the perceived sound varies greatly depending almost entirely on the local acoustics by the shooter. In a school of any size, people on the other end of the building may still have no idea what's going on.

Lastly, I sincerely doubt the efficacy of shouting something foolish like "Armed citizen!!!" or whatever to responding police in an effort not to get shot. Auditory exclusion applies to them, and stress is not going to do anything positive for your speaking ability, so the odds are you will miscommunicate or they will misunderstand.

The best way not to get shot by responding police is to A. not be armed when they get there, and B. not make any sudden movements.

 

[Trent]

Excellent advice, Jeff. Well laid out.

 

[Jenrick]

Telling the 9-1-1 operator "I AM A CIVILIAN AND I AM ARMED" will probably get you through the dispatch and what they say may get past the random noise and radio chatter. 99.999% likely no one else who calls it in is going to be armed. Telling the 9-1-1 operator where you are at, that you are armed, number of shots fired that you've heard, number of gunmen, where they are at.. it'll get relayed.

I work for a large metro agency with a modern up to date 911 center. We have a slew of 911 call takers, and very good dispatchers by and large. The odds of your information making it through the call taker, to the dispatcher, through the HUNDREDS of other pieces of information being entered into the call in the first few minutes, that info being spotted, relayed to officers, and the officers keying on it enough to avoid shooting you are not good. Having been on scene or enroute to multiple shootings (not active shooter, just plain shootings) at bars or clubs, we were lucky if we could get a good address and a victim location before we got on scene and started getting intel.

2. Regardless of CCW permit holders on premises, officers do need training and reinforcement that there may be armed friendlies on the scene. Other responding officers from different agencies, an on-scene school resource officer who may or may not be wearing a uniform, a school staff member who retrieves a gun from the car, etc.

I don't disagree with this statement, but if a non-uniformed officer is running around with a gun and they get shot, it's on them. Pretty much all LEO's will agree with that too. It'd suck, big time, but the reality of the situation is we HAVE to treat everyone with a gun as the shooter until we can prove otherwise due to the dynamics of the situation. That may mean a verbal challenge, that may mean a 75 yd shot down the hall with a rifle.

3. Regarding 2., it seems like it would be best for anyone who did find themselves armed in a school during an active shooter incident to immediately hunker down and only engage the shooter if the shooter comes to you. This would cut down on the risk of being shot by responding police and reduce erroneous 911 reports.

No your best bet is to leave you gun in the holster, and head for the hills. IF and only IF you run into the shooter in the process of doing this do you try and take action. Your best chance of survival is flight.

-Jenrick

 

[JRH6856]

No your best bet is to leave you gun in the holster, and head for the hills. IF and only IF you run into the shooter in the process of doing this do you try and take action. Your best chance of survival is flight.

This might seem to go directly against the often stated idea that the more armed persons there are on scene, the more there will be to stop an active shooter. But both ideas are valid.

The best survival option for anyone, armed or not, is to leave ASAP and only engage the shooter if he should be encountered in the process. But the more armed people there are, the greater the likelyhood that the shooter will encounter one who may respond by taking him out.

Civilians don't need to go looking for an active shooter, we just need to be prepared to respond if one finds us on our way out the door.

 

[Glocktogo]

Exactly. Being the good guy in plain clothes with a gun in hand when officers arrive while an active shooter on the rampage is bad. Being the good guy who just took out an active shooter and is awaiting responding officers to bag the body and take witness reports is good.

 

[JRH6856]

Exactly. Being the good guy in plain clothes with a gun in hand when officers arrive while an active shooter on the rampage is bad. Being the good guy who just took out an active shooter and is awaiting responding officers to bag the body and take witness reports is good.

Which brings up the question, with the bad guy on the ground, with a bullet, what is the best way of making sure the arriving officers know that the guy with the now holstered gun was not the bad guy who did all the shooting? Are they just going to take your word? I think that unlikely.

 

[Jeff White]

Which brings up the question, with the bad guy on the ground, with a bullet, what is the best way of making sure the arriving officers know that the guy with the now holstered gun was not the bad guy who did all the shooting? Are they just going to take your word? I think that unlikely.

Expect to be proned out, cuffed and searched. Expect to be taken into custody until things get sorted out.

 

[JRH6856]

Expect to be proned out, cuffed and searched. Expect to be taken into custody until things get sorted out.

I fully expect that. But that one can survive. Also expect to do the perp walk with media cameras and a lot of publicity and public speculation until things are sorted out. And expect a segment of the public to then believe for a long time that you must have been an accomplice or something or the police would not have arrested you.

 

[Jeff White]

I think they will sort it out before you have to make the perp walk in front of the cameras.

 

[JRH6856]

Hopefully, but I'm a constructive pessimist and habitually try to anticipate the worst possible outcomes.

 

[Jeff White]

No department I worked for would have been anxious to get even the shooter in front of the cameras.

 

[JRH6856]

The problem these days is that everyone has a cellphone with a camera that records video and the Internet has plenty of outlets. No one was supposed to see Saddam Husein's hanging, either.

 

[Jeff White]

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but by the time they would get to moving the people they arrested out of the school the crowds would most likely have been moved back. Remember they aren't going to stop searching once they think they might have the shooter. They will make certain there are no accomplices on the scene.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Also expect to do the perp walk with media cameras and a lot of publicity and public speculation until things are sorted out.

There is a disconnect between the above and the below

The problem these days is that everyone has a cellphone with a camera that records video and the Internet has plenty of outlets.

I've always understood the "prep walk" as being walked through a crowd of cameras and media, which you referenced in "media and lot of publicity...", while in handcuffs.

This is completely different than being taken into custody and handcuffed until the officers ascertain your involvement, even if it is recorded on a cell phone by a bystander (which is unlikely anyway as they would want to get out of there).

It is more likely that you would be detained in place until they figure out who you are or identified as not being the shooter. I would think you'd find it preferable to be cuffed and sitting up, than proned out on the ground with guns pointed at you until you are cleared

 

[JRH6856]

Yes, I admit the disconnect if we are talking about traditional news media, and when I wrote "perp walk" I was. But then I realized that the most likely source of pictures and videos in breaking news stories these days is just anybody who has a cellphone and can get a chance to use it. And that could be anyone, including witnesses, victims, and first responders. Hopefully not, but it happens a lot.

 

[1911 guy]

I've done the ALICE training as well as a lot of training simply as a civilian who carries a gun. The advice I have heard repeated over and over, from every police officer and trainer I have studied under, is to do your best to be unarmed when the fuzz shows. Again, expect to be proned out and searched, comply and things will sort out. However, waving a gun around when the cops show is probably a good way to be the guest of honor at a funeral.