Note that the 4473 asks specifically in question 2 for, "Current Residence Address." Question 2 also specifically says, "...Cannot be a post office box."
Addresses and Identification
- Thread starter Pipefighter
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Pipefighter
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So, could I take some mail like a bank statement that has my current residence on it and my photo Id that has my permanent address on it. Use my current address on form 4473 and show my ID even though the addresses don't match.
dogtown tom
Member
No.
As I wrote in post #2:
If your government issued photo ID does not show your current residence address, you must provide the dealer with another government issued document that shows your name and your current residence address.
A bank statement is not a government issued document.
slumlord44
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What about people who live in a RV and travel the country with no permanent residence?
dogtown tom
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ONCE AGAIN.........If your government issued photo ID does not show your current residence address, you must provide the dealer with another government issued document that shows your name and your current residence address.
If the people living in an RV and travelling the country cannot provide the required documentation then they cannot acquire firearms.
bikemutt
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If your'e lucky enough to be traveling the fruited plain in an RV it's more than likely you'll have a driver license. That should suffice in most states to buy a long gun.
Hanzo581
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If you really need the pistol just buy it privately, we're still in a pretty free state.
Theohazard
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Bikemutt, remember that you still have to put your current residence address on the 4473, even if you're buying a long gun. If you're not currently living at the address that's on your drivers license, then you can't put that address on the 4473.bikemutt said:
bikemutt
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I wonder if it's possible then to have a valid address where one lives without ever going there? If not then I guess full time RV folks can't buy a gun from a dealer.
The 4473 asks for one's "current residence address." "Residence" means:
Pipefighter
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If that was the case I'd be ok. My DL matches the address that I'm not allowed to go to.
MedWheeler
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^^, Whoa... you're "not allowed to go" there? Why is that? I thought you were "just staying away until things cool off." Is it just your wife saying so? I ask because if you're under some type of restraining order, you may have other issues pertaining to acquisition and continued possession of firearms.
Pipefighter
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I wondered when someone was going to bring that up. She tried to get a protective order but the judge wouldn't issue one. When we went to court court for temporary support,he awarded her the marital property,the two rental houses and $1600 a month. Hence why I'm living in my horse trailer at another farm.
MedWheeler
Member
^^ Actually, you brought it up, when you used the phrase "..the address I'm not allowed to go to" in post 36. Before that, none of us knew.
Thank you for clarifying. Sounds like you got a rough road ahead of you, most of which has nothing to do with firearms. Good luck, man..
Thank you for clarifying. Sounds like you got a rough road ahead of you, most of which has nothing to do with firearms. Good luck, man..
Wisco
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Ever? That wouldn't be a residence.
Sometimes? That might be a residence.
I know some RV dwellers, but they maintain stick-built residences in their state of residence for lots of reasons...mail, taxes, home base, etc.
As far as I know, there's no limit to how many nights you need to spend in your residence versus traveling nights, but I know you can't "live" permanently in two places for the purposes of state ID, taxes - which affects those with vacation homes.
CapnMac
Member
Well, they can't, not really.
You have to have some sort of address to keep the registration up to date. The vehicle will need it's inspections, insurance, and the like--all of which require an address. The DL for the driver(s) of the RV typically need some form of address as well.
Now, whether "full time RVers" actually reside legally at their "permanent" address, is a matter for legal scholars.
There is a similar issue for live-aboard boat owners, too.
bikemutt
Member
So putting the pieces together, it would seem that as long as someone "regularly stays at" the address on their valid DL, they should be good to go on form 4473. If that address happens to be the buyer's sister's home and she never misses spending the night while visiting her on her birthday, that sounds regular.
It might seem that way to you, but how it seems to you doesn't matter. What matters is how it might seem to a judge, and that will have something to do with what law there might be bearing on the issue.
For example:
- The Seventh Circuit affirmed Matthew Queen's conviction for making a false, material statement on a 4473 when he listed as his current address an address at which he no longer lived (U.S. v. Queen, 408 F.3d 337 (Fed. 7th Cir., 2005)).
- The Eleventh Circuit affirmed David Garrity's conviction for making a false, material statement on a 4473 (United States v. Garrity (No. 16-10930, 11th Cir., 2016). Garrity bought a gun at a Gander Mountain in Florida listing a Florida address as his current address. That address matched the address listed on his Florida commercial driver's license. He also registered and insured two vehicles at that address in Florida, and he voted in Florida. However, it turned out that Garrity's home was actually in New Jersey, where he lived with his family. The Florida address was that of a friend with whom he stayed when his work as a truck driver took him to Florida.
Situations like the OP's or the person who essentially lives in an RV or on a boat and spends his time traveling present difficult problems under the Gun Control Act of 1968. Unless/until the issues get thoroughly hashed out in court buying a gun is going to be problematic for persons in those sorts of situations. And assumptions not backed up with applicable court decisions could get folks into serious trouble.
bikemutt
Member
I looked these two cases up online.
It seems as if Mr. Garrity foolishly, and illegally furnished a false Concealed Weapons Permit he acquired online when he bought the gun in Florida. Too bad for him the counterman was a moonlighting LEO.
Mr. Queen on the other hand, filled out 4473s using a residence address from which he'd been evicted for not paying his rent. He came to the attention of the authorities because at least 11 of the 39 guns he'd purchased were recovered from crime scenes in the Detroit and Chicago areas.
Liars mostly always get caught if they tell the lie enough times.
Surely there has to be a way to not make liars out of honest RVers.
Snyper
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They certainly do.
CapnMac
Member
That becomes a question of intent.
Which winds up a bit outside of many regulations and laws--not in crimila way, just in a way never envisioned by the drafters of those laws and regulations.
Some laws and regulations make provisions for "itinerants," persons of no fixed address, but not many.
As an example, the Texas LTC laws has provisions for issuance to itinerants. But, to my limited knowledge, the Transportation Code 9which covers vehicle registration and licensing) does not. Those laws were created expecting that applicants would have fixed mailing address corresponding to their residence.
I want to remember that the issue of some itinerant RVers being disenfranchised (not allowed to vote from not having length-of-residence) has been addressed in a few jurisdictions, and some have held that such consequence is just part of the decision to live as an itinerant.
But that's not the point. Actually folks who commit crimes can get caught in all sorts of ways, some of which could be serendipitous.
The points (at least in the Seventh and Eleventh Circuits), relevant to the subject of this thread, of the cases I cited are:
- One's residence address is material to the purchase of a firearm from an FFL
- Claiming on the 4473 an address at which one doesn't live or make his home to be his residence address is a false statement in violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6) and thus a federal crime.
- The fact that one might occasionally stay at an address when temporarily in a place doesn't make that address his residence address.
- The fact that an address is shown as one's residence address on a driver's license, a vehicle registration, or vehicle insurance, or is the address shown on voting records, doesn't make it one's residence address if it is not where he actually makes his home.
- The other misdeeds of Queen and Garrity are irrelevant to those points. Those misdeeds are not elements of the crime for which each was convicted, i. e. making a false, material statement on a 4473 in violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6).
That said, those cases don't definitively answer the question of what one's residence address is if one spends all his time traveling in an RV or sailing around on is boat. The case perhaps offer some clues but don't fully resolve the matter.
That's really not unusual in the law. There will be questions that don't have firm or definitive answers. So at this point it appears to be impossible to say with any real certain what the residence address of someone who spends all his time traveling in an RV or sailing around on is boat is for the purposes of the 4473.
rromeo
Member
So, if my driver's license only has my PO Box, my C&R FFL with both addresses should suffice, correct? I've had two dealers turn me down. I know it's up to their discretion.
dogtown tom
Member
yup
gbran
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