Well not every cop has a take home, and not all take homes are marked, and even those that have option to take home a marked ride, are sometimes smart enough not to do it, because they don't want to advertise what they do and where they live.
The "officer 4473 dilema"
- Thread starter StopTheGrays
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Lone_Gunman
Member
I have a question to the LEO's here, and people who support them not having to have their personal info on their driver's licenses...
Are you opposed to this policy being applied to non-LEO's as well? In other words, what difference does it make what address is listed on my driver's license from a law enforcement stand point?
Are you opposed to this policy being applied to non-LEO's as well? In other words, what difference does it make what address is listed on my driver's license from a law enforcement stand point?
TheFederalistWeasel
member
As an LEO I'm not against anyone being able to use a PO Box or work addy on a D/L for privacy purposes, as long as I or any LEO could run your D/L number thru NCIC/GCIC and still have access to your real addy, when issuing a citation or any other offical and lawful need.
It would appear to me that the ATF is still at the root of all this BS were mostly upset about.
It would appear to me that the ATF is still at the root of all this BS were mostly upset about.
Waitone
Member
Hey! What about me? I've had to fire people and I am not government of any type except for being an official taxpayer? Who knows when someone will go postal? They know where I work and they know where I live. I'm cooked.
armoredman
Member
Stevlyn, if you had tried to purchase a firearm in the shop I worked at in AZ, with a PO box on your DL, you would have been turned away. We got an update from ATF that was VERY specific that PO boxes are NOT acceptable, and anyone selling from an FFL to a DL with a PO box is in violation. I don't like 4473sm either, NOR do I like background checks, as both conflict with 2A, but idid them so I could stay out of jail and keep my own firearms. I also contacted, and continue to contact my elected critters to change those laws.
As a correctional sergeant in AZ, I get my share of death threats from inmates, former inmates, etc. In AZ street LEO and prosecuters/judges can press charges against anyone disclosing thier personal info/addy. etc. We cannot....
I also agree that the 4473 info is NOT a public document. I can't see BGs breaking into a gunshop to steal 4473 info -they're already where they can get the guns! They have great ways of tracking us down, from Google to the ex-felon buddy who works at DMV, to the neighbor three doors down whos' brother happens to be with the Aryan Brotherhood.
We do get attacked off duty, not very much, but it does happen, which is why my CZ P01 rides with me alla time, and the wife also carrys her CZ RAMI 9mm. Backup.
As a correctional sergeant in AZ, I get my share of death threats from inmates, former inmates, etc. In AZ street LEO and prosecuters/judges can press charges against anyone disclosing thier personal info/addy. etc. We cannot....
I also agree that the 4473 info is NOT a public document. I can't see BGs breaking into a gunshop to steal 4473 info -they're already where they can get the guns! They have great ways of tracking us down, from Google to the ex-felon buddy who works at DMV, to the neighbor three doors down whos' brother happens to be with the Aryan Brotherhood.
We do get attacked off duty, not very much, but it does happen, which is why my CZ P01 rides with me alla time, and the wife also carrys her CZ RAMI 9mm. Backup.
I dont think cops in general would be opposed to civilians using PO boxes and the like, as long as TFW pointed out we could get access to a physical address in some means.
What baffles me is the line of reasoning that we shouldnt have it because other people dont. Heck, it isnt just cops, but judges and a number of public officials have mechanisms to camoflage their home addys (at least they did at one time, I havent had to run any lately)
What baffles me is the line of reasoning that we shouldnt have it because other people dont. Heck, it isnt just cops, but judges and a number of public officials have mechanisms to camoflage their home addys (at least they did at one time, I havent had to run any lately)
stevelyn
Member
Although my mailing address is on my DL, I still have to put my physical address on the 4473. My physical address is confirmed as a result of the NICS check. I also have a C&R. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. BTW I don't even have a photo on my DL. Alaska allows us bushkins to obtain a "Valid Without Photo" licenses since we're still required to have licenses off the road system. The nearest DMV office almost 700 miles away. My department ID has a photo on it though. 
Most of the larger agencies up here give their officers take home vehicles especially the Troopers, Anchorage, Fairbanks, mine and a few others. Never heard of a problem occuring as a result of it.
Alaska allows us bushkins to obtain a "Valid Without Photo" licenses since we're still required to have licenses off the road system. The nearest DMV office almost 700 miles away. My department ID has a photo on it though. Most of the larger agencies up here give their officers take home vehicles especially the Troopers, Anchorage, Fairbanks, mine and a few others. Never heard of a problem occuring as a result of it.
Control Group
Member
*blink*
Centac, mark this day in history; I agree with you completely.
There's something wrong with allowing cops to hide their addresses and not letting me hide mine, and it's not that cops can hide their addresses. But nothing is served by trying to strip that ability from the police. The women's suffrage movement didn't try to stop men from voting, it tried to get women the right to vote. The civil rights movement didn't try to strip civil rights from whites, it tried to secure civil rights for blacks.
The argument that "we don't have it, so they shouldn't" puts me in mind of a joke I once heard. An American, a Brit, and a Soviet were in the airport when a genie suddenly appeared to them, and offered to grant each one wish. The American went first, saying, "I'm jealous of do-nothing actors living better than me. I want a Hollywood mansion with all the frills." The Brit went second, saying, "I'm jealoud of only having my Cooper Mini when the royals ride in style, I want a classic Rolls-Royce that's been completely restored." The Soviet went third, saying, "Ah, I have no such greedy capitalistic desires. I am simply jealous that my neighbor has two chickens, while I have none. Kill his chickens."
Does this issue annoy me? Sure, but the answer isn't to penalize the cops, who do have - on the average, compared to non-officer citizens - a higher risk of being singled out by BGs. It can be argued they need the privacy. What needs to be argued is that we shouldn't have to "need" the privacy to have it.
Centac, mark this day in history; I agree with you completely.
There's something wrong with allowing cops to hide their addresses and not letting me hide mine, and it's not that cops can hide their addresses. But nothing is served by trying to strip that ability from the police. The women's suffrage movement didn't try to stop men from voting, it tried to get women the right to vote. The civil rights movement didn't try to strip civil rights from whites, it tried to secure civil rights for blacks.
The argument that "we don't have it, so they shouldn't" puts me in mind of a joke I once heard. An American, a Brit, and a Soviet were in the airport when a genie suddenly appeared to them, and offered to grant each one wish. The American went first, saying, "I'm jealous of do-nothing actors living better than me. I want a Hollywood mansion with all the frills." The Brit went second, saying, "I'm jealoud of only having my Cooper Mini when the royals ride in style, I want a classic Rolls-Royce that's been completely restored." The Soviet went third, saying, "Ah, I have no such greedy capitalistic desires. I am simply jealous that my neighbor has two chickens, while I have none. Kill his chickens."
Does this issue annoy me? Sure, but the answer isn't to penalize the cops, who do have - on the average, compared to non-officer citizens - a higher risk of being singled out by BGs. It can be argued they need the privacy. What needs to be argued is that we shouldn't have to "need" the privacy to have it.
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Pretty much a no-brainer, it seems.
1. If it's a duty gun, let the LEO agency buy it and issue; no form 4473 "problem". If it's a personal gun for the cop, then he gets no different treatment from any other person buying a gun for personal use. If your agency makes you buy your own duty weapon, then take it up with your cheap and/or lazy agency heads.
2. In any event, how exactly is it anyway that security is compromised by giving a home address to the NICS check people and gun store people, whether LEO or not? It's not leaked out into the public in any way. Only security risk, is if someone who wanted revenge, or knew someone who did, worked in the gun store and thumbed through the 4473s when no one is looking. Pretty remote possibility.
1. If it's a duty gun, let the LEO agency buy it and issue; no form 4473 "problem". If it's a personal gun for the cop, then he gets no different treatment from any other person buying a gun for personal use. If your agency makes you buy your own duty weapon, then take it up with your cheap and/or lazy agency heads.
2. In any event, how exactly is it anyway that security is compromised by giving a home address to the NICS check people and gun store people, whether LEO or not? It's not leaked out into the public in any way. Only security risk, is if someone who wanted revenge, or knew someone who did, worked in the gun store and thumbed through the 4473s when no one is looking. Pretty remote possibility.
Henry Bowman
Senior Member
It appears that is not the security risk. The security problem must be having the home address in the DL records or on the actual card. My question: How is it that the BG is getting access to the DL records or getting a looksee at the officer's DL card?
rock jock
Member
+1. This whole issue is stupid. No one needs to see your address on your DL except for LE and possibly utilities, banks, etc. If you need to show your DL to a Wal-mart clerk for CC ID confirmation, just place your thumb over the address.
There is leakage from clerks and computer workers at different records facilities. In one case the girlfriend of an organized crime figure was running records for his gang, in another cocaine was being traded for info. I dont know how common it is but it does happen with some fequency. Like so many instances, the people with the closest access to some really valuable info are pretty poorly paid for their responsibility.
Gordon Fink
Member
Law enforcement is a difficult, dangerous job … thankfully.
~G. Fink, non-cop who has sent felons to prison, fired employees, and angered the occasional taxpayer
~G. Fink, non-cop who has sent felons to prison, fired employees, and angered the occasional taxpayer
rock jock
Member
OK, good example. But, if I were you, I would be much more concerned about the very common crime of ID theft then some BG you locked up getting your address. The latter is pretty rare and if someone was determined enough, they could find you.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Lone Gunman, I never claimed to have any facts. I think I made a reasonable argument as to "odds".
This doesn't mean I'm against similar privacy for all of us. It's just that I don't object to LEOs getting this bit of possible help. I note that TPTB never have particularly worried about me in that regard; they never will--and anybody who does get a bit extra, hey, good for them.
My DL sez "Three miles NW Terlingua PO". All somebody has to do is figure out if that's 2.6 or 3.4 miles, rounded off. And, it it's NNW or WNW as to compass direction. You run me through Google and you can find a street address that makes UPS happy. Trouble is, the little red star on the Google map is about four miles off from reality. (Which is a good description of Terlingua, come to think of it.) However, the UPS guy knows where my buddy's house is, where my stuff gets dropped off.
Oh, well. My CHL sez four miles. I didn't move; the feds built a new post office. Not my doing.
Sometimes, privacy just happens.
Art
This doesn't mean I'm against similar privacy for all of us. It's just that I don't object to LEOs getting this bit of possible help. I note that TPTB never have particularly worried about me in that regard; they never will--and anybody who does get a bit extra, hey, good for them.
My DL sez "Three miles NW Terlingua PO". All somebody has to do is figure out if that's 2.6 or 3.4 miles, rounded off. And, it it's NNW or WNW as to compass direction. You run me through Google and you can find a street address that makes UPS happy. Trouble is, the little red star on the Google map is about four miles off from reality. (Which is a good description of Terlingua, come to think of it.) However, the UPS guy knows where my buddy's house is, where my stuff gets dropped off.
Oh, well. My CHL sez four miles. I didn't move; the feds built a new post office. Not my doing.
Sometimes, privacy just happens.
Art
I would have thought that bank employees, men who work at security guard companies driving armored cars, and teachers might have a higher chance of being targets also. Threatening a bank manager's family and telling the bank manager to bring out a million or else would be a lot easier than walking into the bank with a sawed off shotgun.
Police seem to fear the public too much in my opinion. They act like their neighbors don't know who they are and what they do.
If it is good enough for average citizens then it ought to be good enough for police. After all, they are just average citizens who happen to have a high stressful and dangerous job. Not unlike 99% of the rest of the population.
Maybe this will be a wake up call to some of those police officers who have favored stronger gun control legislation. What few of them seem to realize is that legislation here is moving toward controls being placed on all firearms, including those in the hands of the police.
Why would I say that? Because they have a similar system in many European countries already. Police officers there are allowed to keep their firearm WHILE ON DUTY but must surrender it before going home at the end of the day. I believe that many of TPTB would like to see the same system here.
Now ask a working police officer if he would be willing to trade his right to take his gun home every night in exchange for the rest of the population being disarmed. Ask him if he will feel as safe when he spends 16 hours of the day disarmed. Cause I think that is where we are headed.
Why would I say that? Because they have a similar system in many European countries already. Police officers there are allowed to keep their firearm WHILE ON DUTY but must surrender it before going home at the end of the day. I believe that many of TPTB would like to see the same system here.
Now ask a working police officer if he would be willing to trade his right to take his gun home every night in exchange for the rest of the population being disarmed. Ask him if he will feel as safe when he spends 16 hours of the day disarmed. Cause I think that is where we are headed.
TheFederalistWeasel
member
I feel, speaking from my personal experience as an LEO we do fear “some” of the public and for a good reason.
When was the last time you had your car pelted with bricks or beer bottles, while on patrol?
Ever been followed while on foot patrol in a housing project?
Ever had a unknown subject approach you car at night while you are parked in front of a closed gas station where you just bought a coke out of a vending machine, trying to walk up on your blind spot with something in his hand, it looked like a small glass jar with a liquid in it, when you turned to confront him he runs?
Ever had someone try to throw a burning road flare into your car while on patrol?
When was the last time you got out on foot walking thru a park known for high drug activity, one where a lot of foot chases ensue and found trip wires, sharpened sticks and old ten speed bicycle spokes buried in the ground protruding up about 6 inches?
When was the last time you had someone turn loose a pit bull on you and you heard very plainly, to the point your body mic caught it as well, the persons voice commanding the dog to “sic him”!
When was the last time you searched a person you arrested and found him to be holding a pocket full of fish hooks or razor blades, the same pocket you found his dope? This on a 19-year-old city kid…
When was the last time you encountered a male with his thumbnail cut in a manor, which left a very pointed tip? A common thing now with gang members, some will do all their nails this way and paint them with many coats of clear polish to strengthen them and they use them to gouge or slash at your eyes.
I can answer yes to all of these and yes we do have a good reason to be suspicious of the public.
Walt Sherrill
Member
To TheFederalistWeasel:
All of that is bad, and I'm sorry it happens to you and other LEOs.
But...all of the things described happen to officers on duty, driving police cars, etc.
What has THAT to do with the use of special ID cards, etc., when buying weapons. Wasn't that the initial point of discussion? Isn't that what's THIS is about?
With regard to pelting, rocks thrown, people out to do you harm: firemen sometimes get the same treatment. As do EMTs. Its sad. I'm not downplaying the risk or the potential damage. Its sad that anyone has to put up with that.
But none of this has anything to do with the original point -- the need for special ID when buying a gun, etc. As I asked earlier -- and haven't seen an answer -- how does a special ID prevent problems?
All of that is bad, and I'm sorry it happens to you and other LEOs.
But...all of the things described happen to officers on duty, driving police cars, etc.
What has THAT to do with the use of special ID cards, etc., when buying weapons. Wasn't that the initial point of discussion? Isn't that what's THIS is about?
With regard to pelting, rocks thrown, people out to do you harm: firemen sometimes get the same treatment. As do EMTs. Its sad. I'm not downplaying the risk or the potential damage. Its sad that anyone has to put up with that.
But none of this has anything to do with the original point -- the need for special ID when buying a gun, etc. As I asked earlier -- and haven't seen an answer -- how does a special ID prevent problems?
Gordon Fink
Member
Federalist, some people are just bad, and when they’re not making trouble for the police, they’re usually making trouble for the rest of us.
~G. Fink, non-cop whose car has been pelted on more than one occasion
~G. Fink, non-cop whose car has been pelted on more than one occasion
armoredman
Member
Fink, what do you do?
TheFederalistWeasel
member
Absolutely!
But once the actions of those folks causing trouble [for you] arrive at a certain personal comfort level most reasonable people will call 911 and who then shows up and is expected to by virtue of their position, to do something about it?
The last time? I'll admit it's been awhile. Probably about 3 years now. I did work for a mental health hospital though. My duties involved traveling to "the poor and disadvantaged among socio-economically destabilized public housing" (that was actually written in one of our company flyers) and providing "expert advice on mental health problems among our client base" {quote BS company line unquote}.
I handled crack baby cases. Kids hearing voices. Clients who had murdered other people. Drugs addicts. Sexually abused 5 year old girls (I hope you have never experienced, and can't imagine, what it feels like to interview a sexually abused 5 year old). And tons of gang kids. BGD, Crips...you name it and I've done it.
So picture everything that you described to me as having happened to you, and then imagine that you had to go into those same neighborhoods armed only with your winning smile and a size eight by eleven wooden clipboard.
And I pissed off quite a few of my clients. One of my classic lines was "If you stay in a gang you'll either be in jail or dead by age 25." The leaders in the gangs didn't like me saying these things to their recruits. They leaned on me hard a few times.
Am I right in assuming that you don't encounter these types of attacks in EVERY neighborhood that you patrol? Aren't some neighborhoods better than others? That was certainly my experience while on the job.
To clarify my earlier statements: I do think that there has developed among the police community a belief that it's "us versus them". Almost a militarized view of the public. The public is seen as somehow constantly threatening the police, and constantly concerned with trying to kill police officers. To me, the statistics just don't bear this out. The number of officers killed in the line of duty has stayed within the 130-200 range for the last decade. I'm told by my relatives (police officers all) that the 1970's was the time to be scared if you were a police officer. This is what they tell me. If the public was ACTIVELY moving against the police, there would be a LOT more policemen being killed. For that matter, there would be a lot more of the public being killed as well.
(Of course, I could be wrong. If you are personally seeing a lot more public outcry/violence against the police while on the job then ignore what I'm saying. But then ask yourself "why is the public turning against us?" If you figure that one out then you'll make Officer of the Year, I'm sure.)
Are certain segments of the public going to attack police officers? Yes...and they always have. That's why you grow trees in your front lawn as a barrier to gun fire, and keep a 870 with mag extention next to the door.
It wasn't much different in Wyatt Earp's day. But those same sections of society that MIGHT attack the police are also the same sections that know the COSTS of attacking the police. Would you really want to be a gang banger in a gang that was at war with the police???!!!! "Hey...he resisted arrest...what could I do? That's when I shot the gang leader 95 times, your Honor." As an aside: Do you know who is most likely to shoot a police officer? A relative, an ex-wife, or himself (suicide). Sad but true...and exactly like 99% of the rest of society.
No, I think what bothered me most about the privledged address that police were being allowed on the 4473 was that it was designed to further separate you guys from the public. It was another one of those "differences" that cops are allowed to have. Truthfully, I don't see why you guys don't have to jump thru the same hoops that we do. If it is good enough for the rest of society, then it ought to be good enough for you guys as well. Anything else just fosters that whole "it's the thin blue line versus the rabble" mentality. Even my relatives are guilty of this attitude on occasion.
The second post I posted earlier was intended as a cautionary reminder of this. Many police officers have no problem with repealing the second amendment....as long as THEY are allowed to keep their firearms. "Us vs. them" again. I wanted to point out that TPTB don't necessarily want a strongly armed police force anymore than they want a strongly armed civilian population. Thus my point about some police organizations in Europe only allowing their officers to be armed while on duty.
I do know that a lot of people are nervous about the direction of both our laws, and the various powers that LEO's are being given under these laws. Where that will go, in both political terms and how hard it is for you on the streets, I can't know.
What I'd like to say is that there really isn't a difference between you fellow citizen humans that wear blue and us fellow citizen humans that don't. Perpetuating the idea that there IS a difference is only going to further isolate the police and the public from one another. That's how fear and envy arise.
Results: Who can say? More LA riots?...New York Jamacian immigrants gunned down in the streets?...worse?....I don't know. I think isolation from the public is a bad idea for both the public AND the police though.
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