Advice on 9mm load?

[fmiller4]

This is kind of long. And kind of wordy. But my reasoning is that it’ll save time to tell as much as I can.

So, just to lay out the variables…

I’m working on a 9mm load with HP-38 (I have six pounds…) and 125gr moly-coated conical nose bullets from Summit City (cheap). I did a ladder test and found that 4.6 grains seemed to give me the tightest group at 25yds. I loaded up a batch with an OAL of 1.120 and did a sight-in (Canik TP9SFX with a Vortex red dot on sandbags) but was disappointed with the result.

I’ve been reloading for over 10 years and have never really gotten “The One” for 9mm. I originally got the HP-38 for .45 and while I’d like to switch, I’m kinda broke right now… And, since I’m stuck with the same powder/bullets, I’m not really sure what help you can give. But I’d really love to hear your what you can get from looking at my targets.

I guess my question really comes to "Is there anything I can do (oal change?) and/or am I expecting too much from a sub-$500 gun?” (which to be truthful is way more accurate than my pricier Tanfoglio Elite…)

A few things

- if you look at the bullets I’m using, the top of the cone is kind of convex, which may make teeny-weeny oal adjustments off a little (?)… maybe I should set up my loads with premium bullets and then switch to the cheap stuff?
- I do ‘plonk’ tests with the barrel and try to go with the longest oal where the round doesn’t need any coaxing to fall out when I upend it. That happens right around 1.124.
- my ultimate goal is to be able to shoot a little faster (well, a lot faster but I’ll settle for a little) so pinpoint accuracy isn’t really that important. But still...

So, attached are my black/white sight-in targets. The 4.6 has what I thought was a flyer ("operator error" and I go way back…), but now I’m wondering if that was the actual ‘circle’ and I just got lucky in the corner.

The color is the sight-in attempt, and the groups seem pretty inconsistent to me.

So, the upshot is; given this data - what would your next move be?

Thanks - much appreciated!

f

 

[Hartkopf]

My opinion, worth what you’re paying for it, is buy better bullets. RMR 124gr TC are about 10 cents each and ship free. I know you said you’re kinda broke (me too after buying groceries!) but sometimes certain bullets will just never be accurate.

Edit: staying with the components you have, I would try reducing the charge and shortening the OAL. I’ve actually gotten better accuracy out of a combination that way once.

 

[Jim Watson]

Look at the data and reduce your load. You are over Hodgdon maximum for any bullet of that weight except the Sierra.
Their MAXIMUM for a 125 gr lead conical is 4.4 grains.

I am loading a 124 gr Bayou coated roundnose with 3.8 gr HP38 for 1020 fps. It is an IDPA load for low recoil just over Minor power factor, I have not tried to squeeze it for great accuracy.

Back when I had access to a Ransom Rest, best accuracy with W231 was with a Sierra 115 gr JHP, next best from Remington 115 gr JHP and a cast 145 gr RN.
The very best accuracy called for N320 and the Sierra but you have a large supply of HP38.

 

[fmiller4]

My opinion, worth what you’re paying for it, is buy better bullets. RMR 124gr TC are about 10 cents each and ship free. I know you said you’re kinda broke (me too after buying groceries!) but sometimes certain bullets will just never be accurate.

Edit: staying with the components you have, I would try reducing the charge and shortening the OAL. I’ve actually gotten better accuracy out of a combination that way once.

Thanks! This is exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for!
f

 

[gwpercle]

I have been "working" with a 9mm Luger , a WWII era Walther P38 - 124 gr. cast lead TC GC bullet and
HP-38 powder .

Data is from the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual .
Starting Load - 4.6 grs HP38 @ 1104 fps
Maximum Load - 5.0 grs. HP38 @ 1122 fps

I worked the load up slowly from 4.6 grs. and the Walther's favorite load was just below max. at
4.9 grs HP38 .
Actually it is Most accurate with a 5.0 gr. charge of HP38 but I didn't want to pound myself or the WWII era pistol too hard so dropped back one grain to 4.9 grs . which still hits around 1100 fps , 10 shots makes one ragged hole , 1 1/2" dia. , at 25 yards offhand .
The 9mm seemed to like the upper level loads better than "light loads" ... your 4.6 gr. load is , in the RCBS Manual , the Starting load and wasn't very accurate in my 9mm .

Your not so stellar accuracy may be from the bullets used ... they look sorta "rough" ...
I cast my own with NOE mould 358-124-TC GC and size to .357" , lubed with Lithi-Bee bullet lube .

Hope this helps , load safe ,
Gary

 

[Jim Watson]

Wow, what a spread. One source's max is not even the other guy's start.
I sure am glad I have a chronograph.

 

[eddiememphis]

I posted another thread about Summit City bullets.

In my case it was 135gr 9mm.

I was getting horrible leading in two different guns and the accuracy was poor.

The response from the company was laughable.

Here is the thread, and an excuse to steer anyone away from their product.

 

[eddiememphis]

25 yards is a long shot, even with a 5 inch barrel off a rest.

You may find better load feedback by moving the target closer.

I start my new loads at 5 yards. Then move them out from there. 25 yards is usually my last test, not my first.

 

[NMexJim]

Have you tried shooting from a rest? Sandbag or anything to steady the sight picture. The reason I ask is that I see some sideways stringing and some up and down stringing. That maybe bullets or something else.

I’d first do what I could to eliminate me before I lay blame elsewhere especially if I‘ve not shot steady in a while.

I like to use 8 1/2 x 11 sheets of white paper With a black dot in the center to orient my sights. I’ll shoot a magazine or two holding as tight as I can. I staple another on top of the first and repeat and keep doing this until groups start to tighten up. I take them all down and look over the results.

I’ll probably fire a 100, 150, maybe 200 shots in this way until I get tired. If I don’t like the load, back to the drawing board.

 

[eddiememphis]

Have you tried shooting from a rest?

Read his original post

 

[rfwobbly]

Let me echo Hartkopf. The biggest bang for your money is really good jacketed bullets.

Accuracy is nothing more than putting the bullet in the same place each time. Another word for that is Repeatability. To be repeatable you have to have Consistency, and molded bullets just aren't. There's too much variation in the diameter and surface finish.

Start with Rocky Mountain Reloading. As a member here you get 5% off whatever you order and shipping is always FREE. Try their 124gr JHP or their 124gr Match Winner.

 

[NMexJim]

Read his original post

I did - several times. Look at his targets.

ah, sandbags. Sorry

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Before you trash the bullets try charging 4.4gr HP-38 instead of 4.6gr.
Your COAL looks fine @1.120" while I usually set the OAL @ 1.125" which is a practically insignificant difference.
If you do try the lower charge please give us a report.

If that doesn't work I also suggest either trying cast coated bullets from Missouri Bullets or a FMJ bullet from RMR bullets. (as suggested above)
Summit City 125gr $47/500
Missouri Bullets 125gr $41/500
RMR FMJ 124gr Matchwinner $57/500 (only $10 more than you are now paying)

 

[Larry in wyoming]

Some 9mm guns just don't like cast bullets. It's a bullet size to barrel bore thing. That could be the problem. My smith mp9 doesn't like my cast bullets. OK. I just shoot RMR 124 match winners problem solved. There are things I could do with the cast bullets that might get me better results, but it isn't worth the effort.

 

[lordpaxman]

Welcome to THR!

The color is the sight-in attempt, and the groups seem pretty inconsistent to me.

What size dot are you running? 6? That’s 1.5” at 25 yards. I’m not sure what precision you’re looking for, or, just better than what you posted above? Also keep in mind 5 shots don’t show the whole picture, which may get worse.

So, the upshot is; given this data - what would your next move be?

Others have mentioned a better bullet. I run Blue and RMR heavies, and while I’d like to report the FMJs are more precise, if I’m objective, my gun and me, aren’t. I’m interested in what you find, I’ve got a Canik waiting for me, just haven’t picked it up yet.
Given your goal I’d say ditch the bench rest shooting, get a Mantis and make sure your grip and stance are up to par. I’d bring the targets back to 10-15 yards with an occasional dot torture target.

 

[Random 8]

I've burned a lot of Hp38 in 9mm. It is a fine powder for target velocities.

I'm going to echo others and suggest a different bullet be tried. Can't comment on the quality of yours, but I've had dismal results with coated cast in this caliber across the board. Wax lubed cast from Missouri bullet were the best cast option I've shot. Jacketed have generally produced the best precision groups for me, specifically the Win/Olin NATO spec 124 FMJ. Good results with the RMR options and Hornady XTP as well.

If you can't spring for the larger quantities from RMR, I'd suggest trying 100 XTP from your LGS to get an accuracy baseline. Use book COL and charge. To use up your existing supply of cheap bullets, I'd reduce to the lowest charge that reliably operates your weapon and do a lot of close range rapid fire drills where precision is trumped by gun handling.

 

[Howa 9700]

To the OP, I found this site a while back, and when looking at any powder like to look to see what they say about it. This is for HP-38.

Hodgdon HP38

IMR Target Review

www.natoreloading.com

I'm not familiar with most of the bullets they use, but it seems they have gone to great lengths to test and document their findings. Would be curious to know if what they say about this and other powders is consistent with what folks on here think.

The full ensemble........

9MM

9MM reviews

www.natoreloading.com

 

[drband]

I’m working on a 9mm load with HP-38 (I have six pounds…) and 125gr moly-coated conical nose bullets from Summit City (cheap).

Just a point of clarification, those are Hi-Tek coated bullets, NOT molybdenum (moly) coated. Not the same thing.

With that said, the suggestions have been good— try reducing the load and/or seating a little deeper. I usually find my best load just under max.

Try shooting at 10 or 15 yards. I think that will help your evaluation.

 

[murf]

does that load lead your barrel?

murf

 

[PO2Hammer]

HP-38 is not the problem, that's a top notch powder for 9mm.
4 grains might do better.
Agree, try a better bullet.
HAP, XTP, RMR match winner, any quality HP......