AK vs AR apples to apples accuracy

[DeepSouth]

In my limited experience, it generally breaks down like this.

Generally speaking, the AR's are less accurate than people make them out to be.
Generally speaking, AK's are more accurate than people make them out to be.
Generally speaking, the AR is still more accurate than the AK.

 

[justin22885]

Even without a plethora you'd think you'd see one that was competative in NRA Hi Power.


If Prvi counts as cheap you're on

except reading the rules of "nra high power" competitions, only M1As, garands, AR-10s and AR-15s are allowed to compete

 

[goon]

The ammo makes a lot of difference. The AR will likely have a slight edge, but an AK with good ammo should shoot fairly well. The best factory 7.62x39 bulk ammo I've seen was a batch of Ulyanovsk from around 2008 that came in blue and white boxes in a 700 round can.

But that also was from a Saiga conversion, and the open sight groups were averaging around 3.5" at 100 yards. The most accurate AK variant I've owned was a Vepr K .223 that shot as well as any AR I've personally shot at around 1.5" to 2" at 100 yards. But the Vepr also used a 1.5mm RPK reciever and a heavier barrel. Sold that one probably 10 years ago, and sometimes I regret it. For comparison, my best AR open sight groups from a midlength are probably 2" to 3" at 100 yards.

 

[silicosys4]

Got them both.
Its a lot easier, cheaper, and quicker, to take an AR from 2MOA to 1MOA than it is to take an AK.
I have an AR that is guaranteed to be .75MOA from the factory, with nothing other than a heavy barrel profile, floated handguard, and a SLIGHTLY better, worked milspec trigger. Barely accurized, not "match grade" by any imagination, yet it does .5MOA on a good day, under 1MOA on a bad.
My AK on the other hand, a MAK90 has a heavier barrel than milspec (for an AK), a better trigger, and still does not come close to any of my AR's for accuracy, even the ones put together as a kit from milspec PSA parts. Maybe 2MOA on a good day with quality, brass cased ammo.

 

[mavracer]

except reading the rules of "nra high power" competitions, only M1As, garands, AR-10s and AR-15s are allowed to compete

Show up they'll let you play and score your targets if you post a better score let us know.
Besides there's plenty of foreign rifle matches.

 

[rskent]

Even without a plethora you'd think you'd see one that was competitive in NRA Hi Power.

I think you would have to build can AK from the ground up. You an build a very competitive AR for a couple of grand. You can pretty much buy everything off the shelf. With an AK you would have to make a lot of stuff from scratch. It sounds like a fun, but difficult project.

except reading the rules of "nra high power" competitions, only M1As, garands, AR-10s and AR-15s are allowed to compete

Read further. You don't have to shoot a service rifle to compete in high power. If you call it a match rifle you can shoot pretty much anything from 22 to 30 caliber. An AK space gun. I hate to say it but if it were feasible Tubb would have already tried it.

 

[mshootnit]

"I know my AK is holding sub 6" groups at 200 yd. Wolf ammo, 4xscope. Long single stage trigger.
I also know my AR 20" Delton non chrome 1:9 govt profile rifle is beating that by at least 1" at 200 yd. 9x scope, target trigger, quality ammo."

Soooo… You're comparing an AK with a 4x scope and cheap ammo to an AR with a 9x scope, 20" barrel, upgraded trigger, and quality ammo…

Sounds like a perfectly fair comparison

No I am not comparing. I am just listing facts so you can know my experience.

 

[Sunray]

There is no apples to apples accuracy comparison between the two. Designed for different purposes and uses. Neither was designed for competitive shooting at all.
The AK was design for illiterate conscripts who could be taught to use it for massed PBI attacks in as short a time as possible. Accuracy was not necessary.
The AR was designed as an aircrew survival rifle, not as a battle rifle.

 

[carbine85]

There is no apples to apples accuracy comparison between the two. Designed for different purposes and uses. Neither was designed for competitive shooting at all.

Both are designed for the same purpose therefore you can make the comparison.

The AR was designed as an aircrew survival rifle, not as a battle rifle.

This may have been the original idea but that quickly went out the window. Stoner presented it as a full combat weapon.

 

[carbine85]

None of my AK's will out shoot any of my AR's. I have (1) AK74 that gets pretty close and I have (1) M4 that isn't as accurate. A 1 MOA AK is much harder to build than an 1 MOA AR. The AR has a clear advantage at longer ranges.

 

[mshootnit]

I dont know if the AR has a CLEAR advantage at longer distances. I say this because my last two AK's : an SGL31 and SLR 107 will force an adversary to keep head down at 250 meters. Hits are probable with scope. Thats quite a ways for an assault rifle.

Why is there this latent mentality among US riflemen that if someone is hit with 7.62x39 its always an accident?

 

[Delmar]

By the word inherently used by the OP, the winner should be the AR platform over the AK. One cannot truly free float either design, but the gas system on an AK is massive compared to the AR, so the best one can do with the AK is to minimize the effect that the gas system is going to have. A simple gas tube would have far less effect on barrel harmonics.

 

[Robert]

250y is not long range. At least for the shooting I have done 100-300 is normal, anything 400+ is considered longer range for my AR. I have made hits at 600 on a torso sized target using a range bag as a rest and a 4x ACOG for optics.

The problem is that neither rifle can be made to be exactly the same. Now if you said take an average off the shelf iron sighted example of both rifles and shoot them at the same sized targets at the same ranges then that would be a better comparison. At the yearly AR v AK match we have to limit the range on the targets to about 250y for the AK to be competitive.

 

[justin22885]

250y is not long range. At least for the shooting I have done 100-300 is normal, anything 400+ is considered longer range for my AR. I have made hits at 600 on a torso sized target using a range bag as a rest and a 4x ACOG for optics.

The problem is that neither rifle can be made to be exactly the same. Now if you said take an average off the shelf iron sighted example of both rifles and shoot them at the same sized targets at the same ranges then that would be a better comparison. At the yearly AR v AK match we have to limit the range on the targets to about 250y for the AK to be competitive.

try one in 5.56 with quality ammo and itll be effective much further out than that

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

From what I've seen, an AK74 will perform just as good as a Mil Spec AR15 with a 16" barrel. Neither are tack drivers but plenty accurate to be effective out to 600 yards.

 

[Malamute]

Some humorous replies.

Likely not intended as such.

Im curious what "will force an adversary to keep head down at 250 meters" actually means in group sizes.

Having had 2 5.56 AK's, one that was scoped, it still wouldnt shoot with a scoped AR at the same things we were shooting at at 300 yards, and is one main reason I gave up on fooling with AK's and just went back to AR's again.

AKs are great plinkers, and look good plinking at rocks and sagebrush at 300 yards or so, but I can make a good showing with a pistol doing similar things. None Ive had would consistently shoot along with an AR. Its not assumed results as someone said, its observed results over time with a number of examples of both. Not sure what locker rooms have to do with it, I shoot outside mostly.

 

[d2wing]

You can't make an AK shoot anywhere near as accurate as an AR. Regardless of ammunition or sights. That is providing both guns are in spec and shot by competent shooters.
To say they are comparible for accuracy is silly. No one who is a trained shooter with reasonable experience on both would say that they are even close.
I would challenge anyone on here to beat my Saiga with another AK, then double or nothing against my AR.

 

[Creature]

Proof. People need to provide proof of their AK claims.

 

[justin22885]

there are a few reasons for this (ak-74 being more accurate than 7.62 AKMs).. AK74 generally has a thicker barrel than the AKM.. the outside profiles the same, but smaller groove diameter with the same outside diameter means thicker walls.. but the AK-74s 5.45 also uses longer bullets with better ballistic coefficient

problem with 7.62x39 with its really short 124 grain bullets is that theyre not very aerodynamic nor high velocity to begin with so after about 250-300 yards they'll have lost enough velocity to destabilize.. this is why the AK-74s in 5.45 or 5.56 will easily outshoot the 7.62x39 AKs and one of the reasons theyre given a reputation for being inaccuracy

if i wanted to make an AK into a tack driver, id have a match grade barrel contoured to fit the RPK gas block, rear sight block, and omit the handguard retainer and front sight base, id cut the barrel to about 20" overall length, free float a handguard, bipod on the front of the handguard or mounted to the bottom of the gas block, build this on a bulged RPK trunnion with thicker 1.5mm receiver and install an RS regulate side rail mount for a long range scope... lastly it would be chambered in either .308 (like a yugo M77), 8mm mauser (based on a yugo M76) 7.62x54R (based on the PSL), or 6.5 grendel based on a 7.62 AKM kit and i can guarantee the end product will shoot 1MOA as there are already accurized AKs out there doing this

now, this is usually the part where someone chimes in says "but those dont count.. theyre not REAL AKs because theyve been modified) as if their AR-15 with match barrel, trigger, and magpul stock and free float tube is somehow milspec

 

[mshootnit]

I think I am going to try a 200 yd. Target tomorrow with my AK. 7.62x39. Wolf ammo. Weather is supposed to be horrible. If it works I will post first 5 shot group 200 yd.

 

[goon]

I don't get what all the hostility is about.

My first semi-auto military style rifle was a Vepr K .223. I didn't have it very long, and I mostly shot Federal or Remington 55 grain .223 out of it. At the time I had 3 converted AK-74 magazines from Robinson Armament and maybe 8 or so Bulgarian Circle 10 Polymer Waffle 5.56 magazines that worked with it. I bought them from this outfit called swiretech. I only mention that because someone could probably verify that independently.

It would shoot groups around 1.5" at 100 yards with open sights from a prone supported position with issue RPK style sights. I've shot a little better than that with one FAL I've owned, and usually that's about the best I can do with a midlength AR in 5.56 with open sights. Honestly, with an AR I'm mostly only able to do 3" or so as an average with open sights at 100 yards from a supported position.

I will say that the Vepr's accuracy was atypical for the AK's I've owned. All the 7.62 AK's I've owned grouped from around 3.5" to maybe 6" at 100 yards. One SAR-1 was especially not impressive. I think the thicker barrel, the RPK receiver, and the somewhat better quality ammo made a lot of difference. I've mostly gotten away from AK's now, and I owned that Vepr just about the time I discovered online forums (honestly I was kind of a shot-nosed young tool then, so I apologize for that now) so no photos of any targets exist. But that's pretty much the complete truth on my experience with AK accuracy.

 

[rskent]

justin22885

if i wanted to make an AK into a tack driver, id have a match grade barrel contoured to fit the RPK gas block, rear sight block, and omit the handguard retainer and front sight base, id cut the barrel to about 20" overall length, free float a handguard, bipod on the front of the handguard or mounted to the bottom of the gas block, build this on a bulged RPK trunnion with thicker 1.5mm receiver and install an RS regulate side rail mount for a long range scope... lastly it would be chambered in either .308 (like a yugo M77), 8mm mauser (based on a yugo M76) 7.62x54R (based on the PSL), or 6.5 grendel based on a 7.62 AKM kit and i can guarantee the end product will shoot 1MOA as there are already accurized AKs out there doing this

now, this is usually the part where someone chimes in says "but those dont count.. theyre not REAL AKs because theyve been modified) as if their AR-15 with match barrel, trigger, and magpul stock and free float tube is somehow milspec

Not at all. Every national match service rifle I have ever seen is about as stock or "mill spec" as a nascar is stock. I think you are on the right track with your ideas. I think you should built it. It would be fun. Except maybe for the bipod and scope. Think sling and irons.

 

[justin22885]

justin22885

Not at all. Every national match service rifle I have ever seen is about as stock or "mill spec" as a nascar is stock. I think you are on the right track with your ideas. I think you should built it. It would be fun. Except maybe for the bipod and scope. Think sling and irons.

someday i will, a 308 build on an RPK kit probably, but i have way too much on my plate to even think about that right now, i have other stuff on my list i need to buy first

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Returning to the second part of the op's original question:

which would be more accurate and would the difference even be noticeable?

While everyone on the Internet can outshoot Annie Oakley, at the ranges I go to there is Zero difference in accuracy between ARs and AKs when shooting standing without a sling, especially if there is a movement or speed component.

If you want to use a vice, Frankenguns and custom ammo you can make either one shoot better than the other, but neither will have much in common with a service rifle.

 

[hamp sandwich]

First off, there's this word "accuracy" being used, but often (I believe) it's misunderstood and/or confused with "precision". Because of this, many guns are accused of being "inaccurate". I've noticed that the AK tends to be lumped into this with an unfair bias.

Have a look at the attached pic. In my experience of shooting various AKM's and watching others shoot them, the AKM generally falls under the two targets on the right. Usually, the last target represents the "average" guy enjoying a new WASR with mixed brands of ammo while shooting off hand with intermediate skill sets. I have done PLENTY of this. Consequently, I've done this with an AR, G3, M1A, FAL and others... We've all goofed off a time or two, and it's kinda fun! Am I wrong? That target also represents some loose sight, worn bore, broken, abused and ready for the parts bin rifles, but those aren't what we're looking at. If we're talking about poorly made, poorly maintained or just plain broken, it needs to be fixed or replaced and doesn't apply.

Now, from my experience, the second to the last target represents the "average" AKM with "decent" ammo and a more mindful/skilled shooter at a bench or even prone. Again, I've done this as well with the AKM, AR, G3, M1A, etc.. This target is accurate. It is, however, not precise. This is where I see and hear of many accusing their guns of being inaccurate. I know this because I used to be in that camp.

As an example, I have a FAL with optic that used plant 3" to 5" groups at 100 using that various "average" ammo and my intermediate shooting skills that I before mentioned. One day, I took a class. The groups tightened to 2" to 3", but the rifle didn't get more "accurate". I got more precise. Later, I decided to work up a load for the rifle, and it yields 1" groups now. Again, the rifle did not become more accurate, but rather my ammo was more precise. The only other mod to the rifle since then has been a PRS stock to gain a better cheek weld.

Of course, the FAL that I started with is by no means a "match grade AR", but still has a lot more quality manufacturing than a standard WASR.. I get that, but not all AKM's are WASR's, are they?

So, if a decent shooter behind an average AKM can shoot an accurate 4" group using standard ammo, why can't it shoot better with a more precise load? Is there anything that the shooter can do to improve with that platform? How often is the AK (or any rifle) accused of being inaccurate because of a misconception, or is the reality that we're more concerned about precision than we are accuracy?