Ammo? Maybe I’m wrong.

[bullseye308]

please let’s keep this civil and open.

Here are my thoughts on ammo for defensive uses:
It doesn’t really matter very much. There, I said it. Let me explain my thoughts.
Bullet placement is what really matters, everything else is secondary. The extra .04” of expansion matters little if you hit nothing vital. The extra 2” of penetration matters little if you hit nothing vital. The extra power of a larger caliber matters little if you don’t put it where it can do it’s job.

In real world usage, most concealed carriers do not have the skill required to get off a precision shot right in the proper place we want it to go. We just hope it gets close and miraculously stops whatever threat we are facing. This is where multiple rounds are preferred as it increases your odds of creating enough damage to stop your threat. There is little difference in caliber many choose to carry, from .22 hp to 45ACP as nonvital hits are kind of equal, many will get the required results by a psychological stop in many cases, not from blood loss or a cns hit. Yes, a bigger bullet gives you a tiny bit more margin for error in accuracy, but .25” and more ft./lbs matters little in a miss. Everything is a compromise. Generalities folks, bear with me.

Watching hundreds of self defense videos, lots of similarities are found, as well as many facts we are aware of. One being one shot is usually not sufficient to stop a determined threat(be it man or beast). Multiple shots are usually required even if the first was terminal, and very few have the skill to hit the instant off switch with the first one. Another is almost no one ever has to reload or draw a backup gun(another discussion for another time).

Even if we had the load info on each case: the caliber, bullet, and velocity, there are so many variables involved in each individual shooting that the same round may work perfectly in one case while failing miserably in the next due to hitting a bone, clogging the hp with clothing, target moving, or, most likely, the user just not putting a sufficient round where it needs to go. Maybe your hollow point failed and sailed through, maybe your wide flat nose hit the edge of a bone and deflected into soft tissue and maybe your wadcutter failed to penetrate the last 1/2” to the vitals. Maybe they all did exactly as they should this time around. Maybe your target is charging you, bobbing and weaving and you shoot wildly and hope for the best, that is a frequent occurrence. You may get lucky or not, volume of fire is your friend here I’d believe.

There have been thousands of discussions on gun forums for years on this topic, which bullet at what speed by caliber versus this bullet and speed in another caliber ad nauseam. While there are some that have proven through use to be better than others, every one of those has proven failures as well.

How do you determine which caliber to carry and which load to use? How much does it really matter? What really does matter? IMHO what really matters is carrying the biggest gun you can carry comfortably that you will actually carry, in a caliber you can shoot well, with ammo you have confidence in doing its intended job well enough in whatever circumstances you find yourself in, within the realm of reality of your limits with that combo.

Your thoughts?

 

[crestoncowboy]

As far as 357 sig, 9mm, 45, 10mm, 40 etc etc I don't think it matters. I could pick one at random and be happy. I carry a glock 27 with hst or gold dots or ranger t. Just because those were cheap enough and work. I wouldn't lose sleep if I only had cast bullets or xtp either.

I know two people who were shot by 22 that would absolutely be dead if shot by anything else. I wouldn't put them in the equation at all.

 

[.455_Hunter]

My PERSONAL opinion is for two-legged encounters, the carry of ANY gun elevates the individual far above victim status. The number of documented incidents where a normal civilian CCW has "lost" due to insufficient caliber or capacity is extremely limited. The above is NOT including home defense, off-duty LE, or business defense, but John Smith stopping by the ATM, hitting Walmart, and taking his wife to dinner at Applebee's in conduction of daily activities. Others on this forum will vehemently disagree.

 

[edwardware]

Bullet placement is what really matters, everything else is secondary.

Yes.

It doesn’t really matter very much. . . The extra .04” of expansion matters little. . . The extra 2” of penetration matters little. . . The extra power of a larger caliber matters little. . .

No, no, no, and no.

That everything is secondary to bullet placement does not mean that everything else doesn't matter very much.

You can't win if you miss, but all those secondary factors can easily spell the difference between life and death, and a hundred lesser outcomes, after you score a hit.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Others on this forum will vehemently disagree.

True. But it's like going on a Ford forum and asking about which to buy a Ram or a Sierra. There may be a great deal of bias. Lol.

If you go to the mailbox with out a gun, a backup gun, three flashlight, some level 3, and a couple knives you are a "sheep" on these forums. Lol.

I have handguns from 25/22 up to 454/460/and 500. I'm fine with anything from 380 up to 44 (in a lightweight 329). Any smaller than a 380 and im likely squirrel hunting or checking traps.

One of the two I mentioned was shot point blank in the back of the head, dead center with a 22. Shot placement couldn't be better . Bullet went around his brain. He is fine. Has some headaches. Before that I actually carried a Beretta 21a in 22 in my pocket sometimes.

 

[cslinger]

Pick a martial caliber you enjoy, can and will shoot.
Buy any fairly decent defensive ammo in said caliber.
Make sure both you and the gun will reliably shoot said defensive ammo.
Move on with your life.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall again???………

 

[Hangingrock]

There is an interesting read titled (The Modern Technique of the Pistol by G B Morrison (Jeff Cooper, Editorial Advisor) Copyright 1991, page numbers 100 & 101 The Wounding Mechanism.

 

[Old_Grouch]

It doesn’t really matter very much. There, I said it. Let me explain my thoughts ................................................ Your thoughts?

Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen. Everything else is faeries dancing on the heads of pins.

 

[Anchorite]

Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen. Everything else is faeries dancing on the heads of pins.

Amen…Old Grouch has summed this up.

 

[Coyote3855]

I carry either a .380 pocket gun with FMJ or a single stack 9mm with Hornaday Critical Duty 115s. Practice enough to feel somewhat competent without knowing how I would do in an actual defense situation.

I understand this is limited and anecdotal. I watch John Correa's Active Self Protection channel every day. Civilian encounters with single and often multiple gremlins are often ended merely by the display of a firearm by the intended victim or by putting a round anywhere on one of the attackers.

The requirement for multiple rounds and center mass hits are more of a condition with officer involved shootings where the LE must deal with an armed and aggressive subject that he and his crew need to take into custody.

Exceptions to either scenario of course.

I agree that shot placement is key and an adequate SD caliber is equally important.

 

[FL-NC]

Bullets work like drill bits. Bigger bit = bigger hole. Bigger hole = more damage. More damage/bigger hole = better results and chances of effectiveness on that vital item/chances for said to be hit. You can increase the hole size by using a larger diameter bullet. A HP/SP increases in diameter after it has struck the target (hopefully).
People are animals. It is almost always illegal to shoot big game animals with ball ammunition. This is because ball ammunition doesn't give good terminal performance in organic material. This has been proven in the woods and in testing into various mediums. This results in unrecovered big game animals, suffering and being wasted. If this happens with a human adversary, you may still find yourself in harm's way, even though you executed excellent marksmanship and your firearm worked as advertised. Even if you use a HP/SP, this may STILL happen. Why would anyone willingly put themselves at a POSSIBLE disadvantage (assuming he/she had access to other theoretically better choices, even if it costs more) in such a serious matter?

 

[crestoncowboy]

Why would anyone willingly put themselves at a POSSIBLE disadvantage (assuming he/she had access to other theoretically better choices, even if it costs more) in such a serious matter?

Main issue is "to what end" . By not carrying my 500 and carrying my 40 I'm at a possible disadvantage. By not carrying the Diablo shotgun im at a disadvantage by carrying my 500. On down the line

By not carrying AP non expanding 9mm and carrying gold dots im putting myself at a disadvantage against an attacker in body armor.....

By not carrying +p+p+p you are at a disadvantage by using regular weak ammo.....

its all a silly thing to hang up on. IMO.

I personally just carry my Glock and good HP ammo. I think you and I agree completely on the ammo issue actually. I'm just pointing out how all these threads go. But but but what if what if. My Glock is a 40. Just because it was the super duperest back in the early 00s when I got my permit. Ive not found anything that I deemed super duper-er so I still use the 40. Wouldnt bother me if my Glock 27 turned into a 26 (9) or a 357 sig though whatever number that is . 33 maybe. Years ago I did switch to 10mm during the winter thinking maybe heavy coats would make a difference. But now I just carry the 40. Use the 10s for deer

But ive also hung out at nude beaches and didn't feel like I was in any real danger either. Lol. Maybe im in the minority on this forum. When i was a lifeguard I did often have a Beretta 21 in my trunks pocket.

 

[Old_Grouch]

When i was a lifeguard I did often have a Beretta 21 in my trunks pocket.

Is that a Beretta in your trunks, or are you just happy to see me?

 

[Old Dog]

By not carrying my 500 and carrying my 40 I'm at a possible disadvantage. By not carrying the Diablo shotgun im at a disadvantage by carrying my 500. On down the line

Yeah, ...no.

That's not a relevant line of argument in a discussion that's about what you're using in what you're carrying, not what you're carrying. To indulge in hyperbole such as this is simply obscuring the OP's actual thesis statement, weak as it inherently is.

To ignore the disparity in performance among production handgun ammunition is to handicap one's self even further (particularly if one is carrying a handgun in a sub-optimum caliber). Is there a point of diminishing returns when it comes to value vs. performance? Of course -- there's a lot of decent JHP handgun cartridges out there for decent prices (relatively) that perform close to the premium stuff. But to state that "it doesn't matter," especially if you're not differentiating between ball and HP, LSWC or monolithic, etc., seems plain silly.

There have been thousands of discussions on gun forums for years on this topic, which bullet at what speed by caliber versus this bullet and speed in another caliber ad nauseam. While there are some that have proven through use to be better than others, every one of those has proven failures as well.

What? Really? We hadn't noticed... I hate to channel Fauci and certain politicians, but "follow the science." All other factors being equal, if shot placement is not ideal, I personally want any edge I can get, even if it's .04" of additional expansion.

How much does it really matter? What really does matter? IMHO what really matters is carrying the biggest gun you can carry comfortably that you will actually carry, in a caliber you can shoot well, with ammo you have confidence in doing its intended job well enough in whatever circumstances you find yourself in, within the realm of reality of your limits with that combo.

So you are arguing against yourself. Yes, it matters. Yes, it's been proven to matter. Again, why would anyone willingly handicap one's self by not using the best ammunition available?

 

[Zendude]

FMJ, WC, HP etc…each bullet type has possible disadvantages.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Is that a Beretta in your trunks, or are you just happy to see me?

Sadly if you had asked 5 years ago I'd have said the little Beretta had handled the salt water and sweat very well. In the last few years several issues came up that I believe were the result of it though. The gun is a newish one, parkerized factory finish, it will fire in both DA and SA with the safety on, albeit with extra pressure. And the spring which is also the trigger guard broke and had to be replaced. Lol.

That's not a relevant line of argument in a discussion that's about what you're using in what you're carrying, not what you're carrying

But the OP specifically said from 22 to 45 and that the penetration from a larger caliber was unimportant. Not what ammo in a certain caliber. But all together.

Specifically "there is little difference in caliber many choose to carry from 22 to 45"

Or at least thats how I took it. Maybe I missed it. Wouldn't be the first time

 

[bullseye308]

Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen. Everything else is faeries dancing on the heads of pins.

Well darn, that could have saved me some typing.

 

[bullseye308]

But the OP specifically said from 22 to 45 and that the penetration from a larger caliber was unimportant. Not what ammo in a certain caliber. But all together.

Specifically "there is little difference in caliber many choose to carry from 22 to 45"

Or at least thats how I took it. Maybe I missed it. Wouldn't be the first time

There is little difference in caliber many choose to carry, from .22 hp to 45ACP as nonvital hits are kind of equal, many will get the required results by a psychological stop in many cases, not from blood loss or a cns hit. Yes, a bigger bullet gives you a tiny bit more margin for error in accuracy, but .25” and more ft./lbs matters little in a miss. Everything is a compromise. Generalities folks, bear with me.

 

[crestoncowboy]

But then...

How do you determine which caliber to carry and which load to use?

There is little difference in caliber many choose to carry, from .22 hp to 45ACP as nonvital hits are kind of equal, many will get the required results by a psychological stop in many cases, not from blood loss or a cns hit. Yes, a bigger bullet gives you a tiny bit more margin for error in accuracy, but .25” and more ft./lbs matters little in a miss. Everything is a compromise. Generalities folks, bear with me.

Doesn't matter to me. Give me anything 380-10mm ish. Decent HP. I'm good to go. Not that 10mm has many decent HP sd ammo choices . Thats how I decide

 

[bullseye308]

What? Really? We hadn't noticed... I hate to channel Fauci and certain politicians, but "follow the science." All other factors being equal, if shot placement is not ideal, I personally want any edge I can get, even if it's .04" of additional expansion.

In that case I’d prefer another round be fired than hope the expansion would make up for a near miss.

 

[bullseye308]

But then...





Doesn't matter to me. Give me anything 380-10mm ish. Decent HP. I'm good to go. Not that 10mm has many decent HP sd ammo choices . Thats how I decide

That’s what I’m saying, a gun you can shoot well, in a sufficient caliber, with whatever ammo you are comfortable with for whatever threat you reasonably may encounter with a sufficient supply of ammo to get through it.

 

[crestoncowboy]

That’s what I’m saying, a gun you can shoot well, in a sufficient caliber, with whatever ammo you are comfortable with for whatever threat you reasonably may encounter with a sufficient supply of ammo to get through it.

Yep.

And ive killed more deer and beef with 10mm and 44 mag than many people will ever see. Ive used silver tips, black talon, xtp and a bunch of cast in 10mm. The difference in wound was negligible at best. Is a deer not similar to a large person with a thin leather coat? Granted I had great shot placement and ample time to aim where as in SD you probably don't. But ive never had a deer go more than two hops with a 10mm. He was a large 11 point buck at 45 ish yards shot with a 180 gr xtp. Bullet went in one side and made it through the ribs on the other side. Stuck in the Hyde.

Same for 44. Ive used federal fusion, XTP, cast, and some others. Haven't seen much difference if any.

I don't use either for SD. But having killed and then dressed so many and seen the wounds, HP vs cast idk.
Either way I figure the well compensated folks at the Federal places that studied these things know more than me. So I use what they say to use. Lol. If it helps me out to use the hst/ranger T/gd2 etc then yay. If not then it's fine ammo and will at least go boom... and I will send it where I want to and hope for the best.

 

[webrx]

Busting hand gun caliber myths - worth watching.

From what I have read, watched, etc.
It seems if you have to pull the trigger (which we all hope we will never have to do, or never have to do again if it has already happened once or more), then it take an average of greater than 1 shot and less than 2 shots to stop the threat (typically, on average, etc) - regardless of what caliber you use, be it .22 or .500 might take closer to 2 from a mouse gun (.22, .25, etc) than it does form a .45 ACP but either way over one and under 2 is the average so, 2 seems to be the number needed from any caliber - so, based on this research and the numbers that have been crunched - if you have to pull the trigger, pulling it twice has a greater possibility of stopping the threat especially if you hit what you are intending to.

Just my $.02.

 

[1942bull]

I certainly agree that bullet placement is the foremost factor in stopping a threat. I have often written here that a 22 in the eye is better than a 45 in the arm. And it is easier for most people to be accurate with a 22 over a 45. Yet, there is more to it. Tissue and bone damage are not generally fatal on impact. It is most often not fatal at all. However it can make a real difference in breaking off an attack. So now let’s look at a 22 in the arm compared to a 45. The 45 is going to tear up the arm muscle more than the 22. It can smash the bone while the 22 is unlikely to. The 45 will do more damage than the 22.

Incapacitation can be caused by non-lethal trauma. Pain is debilitating once it reaches a certain level. Multiple hits in non-lethal areas of the body can stop an attack either through physical or psychological incapacitation. If you have ever been shot, and I have been, you know that it makes you instantaneously not want to be shot again. That psychological impulse is driven by the innate will to survive. Pain becomes a reminder of that within moments of being shot.

Another example is how a non-lethal shot can debilitate. In Nam I took an AK round in the side. If it had not first passed through the Marine on my left, I would not be writing this. It took about 3 or 4 seconds for me to resize I had been shot. As I realized it I wanted to get out of the line if fire. I tried. The pain set in, and I became disoriented from it. I fell. The bullet did not hit a vital organ. It clipped of a tiny piece of lung and followed a rib around to my spine to hit a disk. It herniated the disk. More pain. I was down, but not dying. What almost killed me was fluid buildup in my chest, but a corpsman tubed it and it drained. I lived, but I was incapacitated first psychologically and then physically. So don’t discount caliber in terms of incapacitation. Bigger bullets do more damage, which can be incapacitating.

I load 9mm JHP in my EDC. My near eighty year old arthritic hands cannot handle 45 ACP like they could decades ago. If they could I would carry 45. Why? Because I know it will compensate for inaccuracy under combat conditions. Accuracy is most,important, but punching holes in paper is easy compared to CWB.

 

[AK Hunter]

For personal protection I wouldn’t go any smaller than the.380. Hitting the vitals is what you are trying to but you don’t want to over penetrate & hit a innocent bystander.