Another insight into how BGs think

[jmf552]

I posted this here, because I see it as being about situational awareness. I'm still scratching my head over something I learned yesterday that just amazed me in the sense I would have never thought of it.

This paragraph is just the setup to the story: My brother owns a bar and restaurant in major Northeastern city. It is in a bad part of town, but he does pretty well with it financially. I was in that town yesterday and had dinner there. He said calmly, "We don't have too much trouble on this block, except that a drug dealer got shot to death across the street about a month ago. I just yelled at everyone to get down, away from the windows." I would not classify that as "not too much trouble," but everyone has their own lens.

He told me that there is a McDonald's about three blocks north of him that is a center for drug dealing and prostitution. So I asked, "Why the McDonald's? Is the manager in on it?" He said no. The reason is that McDonald's, being in a high crime area, has an extensive system of high-quality, hi-res security cameras both inside the building and in the parking lot. Now I was really confused. Wouldn't that deter crime? Again, no.

The cameras show people making transactions, but the criminals know that the video doesn't prove anything in court about what was transacted. They can sell drugs or make deals for prostitution with impunity. However, the criminals' biggest fear is an armed rip-off or turf shooting by other bad guys. The video will show that in great detail, the police will examine the video, get clues from it and eventually find the shooters. So the shooters choose not to attack there.

So you have a security system designed to prevent crime that actually protects criminals, as long as they don't get violent. I could not have dreamed up anything like that.

 

[strambo]

Hmm, that is interesting. I'm always amazed at how human behavior finds an efficient way to gain advantage in any system or process.

 

[Snyper]

I'm not so sure I buy all that.

The police might not be able to use the videos in court, but they could certainly use them to identify suspects who are likely to be holding and selling narcotics or pimping.

 

[mjsdwash]

I watched a business go from great success, to new ownership, that thought security would help with the panhandling, and loitering. The drug dealers moved in, knowing they didnt need to fear the cameras, and that the "system in place" to keep crime away (a drug dealer working at that very store, but discreet) would be a non issue. The dealer quit. The few people working there that would normally drag them to the alley and beat them down knew the police would side with the druggies. A very successful 200k/year for owner store, bankrupt in a year.

 

[jmf552]

I'm not so sure I buy all that.

The police might not be able to use the videos in court, but they could certainly use them to identify suspects who are likely to be holding and selling narcotics or pimping.

Good thinking, but I have some thoughts about that. First, it's not like the cops don't know who these folks are. If they were selling on street corners, they could get surveillance photos of them. That alone doesn't get them actionable cases. Second, the cops would either need the consent of the McDonald's or a warrant, to get all their the footage, every day. In the case of a shooting, that would be no problem. But I doubt the cops could get either permission, or a blanket warrant, to look at all their video all the time. It would not be in the restaurant's best interest to be openly cooperating with the police. That could have consequences in that neighborhood.

Third, this is a Northeastern city that infamously allowed riots to happen and the police were told stand back and let it happen. Cops have been disciplined for any infraction against minorities. It is a completely demoralized department. They will go in on a shooting, but there is no impetus to clean up drug dealing in a neighborhood like that. Finally, I'll bet the cops would rather have a "no fire zone" for these activities to happen. The alternative is the activities would happen anyway, but people would get shot, as happened across the street from my brother's restaurant.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I posted this here, because I see it as being about situational awareness. I'm still scratching my head over something I learned yesterday that just amazed me in the sense I would have never thought of it.

This paragraph is just the setup to the story: My brother owns a bar and restaurant in major Northeastern city. It is in a bad part of town, but he does pretty well with it financially. I was in that town yesterday and had dinner there. He said calmly, "We don't have too much trouble on this block, except that a drug dealer got shot to death across the street about a month ago. I just yelled at everyone to get down, away from the windows." I would not classify that as "not too much trouble," but everyone has their own lens.

He told me that there is a McDonald's about three blocks north of him that is a center for drug dealing and prostitution. So I asked, "Why the McDonald's? Is the manager in on it?" He said no. The reason is that McDonald's, being in a high crime area, has an extensive system of high-quality, hi-res security cameras both inside the building and in the parking lot. Now I was really confused. Wouldn't that deter crime? Again, no.

The cameras show people making transactions, but the criminals know that the video doesn't prove anything in court about what was transacted. They can sell drugs or make deals for prostitution with impunity. However, the criminals' biggest fear is an armed rip-off or turf shooting by other bad guys. The video will show that in great detail, the police will examine the video, get clues from it and eventually find the shooters. So the shooters choose not to attack there.

So you have a security system designed to prevent crime that actually protects criminals, as long as they don't get violent. I could not have dreamed up anything like that.

 

[edwardware]

I think we too often conflate drug dealers with violent sociopaths. I would guess that many dealers view the violence surrounding their industry as a unfortunate but necessary risk, and would be delighted to enjoy a no-holdup safe zone. The folks who engage in holdups for drugs are probably a small, and very different minority in the industry.

 

[boom boom]

Jmf552,
As McDonalds is not the target, only a subpoena is needed in most states to gather material evidence of crimes from third parties. Rule 17 of Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure is fairly typical in its requirements see https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_17 . McDonalds can file a court motion to quash the subpoena on several grounds but it is doubtful that McD would risk its relationship with the community and law enforcement to do so.

The problem is not that video evidence doesn't help secure warrants, it is that the police are often so overburdened with violent offenses, street level drug dealers don't rise to the level needed to prioritize their prosecution. If police know that the prosecutors will not pursue these cases, they won't waste much time trying to investigate.

 

[fastbolt]

I wondered where you were going to go with, "Another insight into how bad guys think" ...

Having known my fair share of folks who were willing to repeatedly commit criminal acts, including a long list of people arrested and convicted of all manner of criminal offenses, I'd not easily think to pigeon-hole everyone in the overly broad category of "bad guys".

Just like it's usually not possible to have a rational conversation with someone who's really drunk, it's often not easy for the average ordinary, law-abiding citizen to put themselves in the frame of mind of someone who is criminally-inclined.

I've met folks arrested for crimes from minor offenses to multiple murders. Some were notably lacking in education (illiterate, etc), and some were very well educated and very intelligent (but not so much so as to enable them to avoid being caught, arrested and convicted of their offenses).

Whenever I find myself in some conversation where someone is trying to pigeon-hole suspects, or "bad guys", in easily labeled categories, it reminds me of my early years as a young martial arts practitioner (beginning of the 70's).

Back then it was commonplace for almost everyone studying various self defense programs and martial arts styles to envision the stereotypical "untrained but experienced street fighter" as their likely opponent. That guy apparently got around. Everywhere you could hear arts students and practitioners developing their training programs and fighting techniques to enable them to defend against the mythical "street fighter".

I often got a lot of blank looks when I asked what they planned to do if they ran up against someone better trained and experienced in the same art or fighting style as the student talking about defending against "street fighters". The reason I asked? I'd known a couple guys who were serious bullies, and had seriously beaten and injured people ... and they'd both achieved intermediate belt rankings in a couple of different styles (meaning from brown to 1st degree black belts). Highly trained "bad guys" weren't exactly unknown in the history of martial arts, you know.

So, I rather often suspect that people looking to learn to defend themselves against "criminals" and "bad guys" nowadays have similarly created some vision of the prototypical "bad guy", sometimes out of whole cloth, or even cobbled together from what they've seen created by Hollywood screenwriters, or what they've imagined is the life story and mental state of mind of some suspect they're read about in the paper, or seen talked about on some news program.

Granted, being able to lawfully possess guns and attend formalized firearms training is probably precluded by a conviction for some different violent misd and felony offenses, but that doesn't mean someone may not have acquired military (foreign or domestic) or even LE training, before they decided to engage in criminal offenses.

I once had a guy try to stab/gut me with a large knife. It happened in a store where we were standing right under a security video camera. He looked right at the camera, and told me what they'd later see when they looked at the video, and then he seriously tried to stick his large fixed blade kitchen boning knife in me. He didn't seem to be the least bit concerned about the presence of the camera. That was before I became a cop, and it surprised me he wouldn't be intimidated by being "on camera". Then, in later years, working in LE, I realized his behavior, in retrospect, no longer seemed all that unusual when compared to other violent folks willing to commit acts of violence on other people.

 

[strambo]

I always love the generic comments like "if the badguy does "X", then you do (or say) "Y" and they'll _____ (fill in whatever "logical"response they is being projecting on them)."

Unless you have stabbed someone to watch them bleed or stuck a gun in someone's face for what's in their wallet...I'd suggest not trying to occupy their headspace.

Like the couple robbed, then murdered in NYC. Purportledly they gave him the money, then in a snooty voice the female said "What are you gonna do now, shoot us?"

Anyway, the best you can do is what makes sense for your survival in the moment, but be ready for an instant "plan B" if the criminal doesn't respond to your "plan A" like you expected.

 

[fastbolt]

...
Unless you have stabbed someone to watch them bleed or stuck a gun in someone's face for what's in their wallet...I'd suggest not trying to occupy their headspace....

That elicited a good chuckle of appreciation.

 

[lemaymiami]

I began my education in "street life", many years ago - but was still quite naive when I was hired onto a hundred man agency down here in paradise (south Florida), the last week of 1973... I had to learn the hard way that you'll rarely know what's inside an idiot's head that has harmed another person... but that's okay, since what you have to deal with are their actions, period... That ranges from the most minor altercation or disagreement (where a simple verbal request or command works... most of the time...) all the way up to something serious (where there's at least one badly injured victim right there with you). Can't remember how many times someone (a serious felon) totally disregarded the handgun I was pointing at them (but no one ever ignored a shotgun, in similar circumstances... except for one young man who didn't survive the incident....).

All of us, citizen, cop, at every station in life will at times come into contact with bad actors (some are so skilled, you'll rarely even see what they're actually up to - I'd include politicians here - but that would be too easy...). It doesn't matter who they are -it's their actions we'll need to be reacting to...

Yes, skilled operators learn various ways to make their illegal activities safer (most bad guys learn from their experiences - that's why older guys move towards "organized crime" to reduce the likely consequences of their actions. I have known one or two really skilled operators who would actually set meetings on the street into a courthouse, or next to a police station to keep everyone involved on their best behavior... The real consequences of being a heavy bad guy will always come from their friends -so most learn to be cautious (if they live long enough...).

Glad I've been out of that life for a few years now- but the lessons learned will stay with me all of my life....

 

[Sistema1927]

I am not sure that I agree with the conclusions of the OP. I am guessing that McDonalds is a good place for this type of activity due to the fact that you don't need a whole lot of justification to be there, and wouldn't have to defend your actions if found on the premises. Anybody with a buck of two in their pocket could easily justify being there if asked.

 

[harrygunner]

A long time ago, I was telling someone there's an ongoing level of crime that goes unpunished. She was incredulous, shocked such a thing could exist.

Law enforcement either lacks resources or acknowledges human nature and doesn't pursue criminals unless certain thresholds are exceeded.

These criminals have figured that out.

 

[9MMare]

Video is usually just one piece of the overall evidence.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Third, this is a Northeastern city that infamously allowed riots to happen and the police were told stand back and let it happen.

Is there a reason you can't say "Baltimore"?

 

[jmf552]

Is there a reason you can't say "Baltimore"?

I thought this was obvious, but I'm not revealing the name of the city because my brother has to live there, both with the bad guys and the cops. So you guess all you want, but you won't get any confirmation from me.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I'm glad I live where I live.

 

[mbok1947]

I've dealt with a lot of criminals in the past. I agree that trying to get into their heads, for a non-thug, is a real challenge because few of us have even a slice of their value systems. Most career criminals (here I am talking armed robbers, major drug dealers, serial burglars, even those who make a living via paper crimes like identity theft) are sociopaths. They simply lack a conscience and feel completely entitled to take whatever they want from others. Not many are actual killers because they don't need to be, but most are certainly capable of killing without remorse. For a true sociopath the only regret is getting caught, and when they are they inevitably blame everyone else for their actions, including their victims. ("Well he left his car unlocked!")

Most situational criminals, on the other hand, are involved in impulse crimes like shoplifting, and many of them tend to commit crimes like assault while drunk or drugged. And of course a high percentage are addicts who steal to support their addiction; in a lot of cases if they get sober they also abandon crime,

But bottom line is if you are confronted in that McDonald's parking lot with a guy with a knife demanding your wallet you have no idea what his frame of mind might be or what his intentions are. Mind reading does not exist.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I thought this was obvious, but I'm not revealing the name of the city because my brother has to live there, both with the bad guys and the cops. So you guess all you want, but you won't get any confirmation from me.

Because Baltimore PD monitors THR to make sure no one talks smack against their fair city?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

So, I used to do security for the local utility. They had me out checking substations in the middle of the night. Not necessarily criminals but I frequently found homeless people camped out just past the property line where we couldn't make them leave but where they knew that at least once a night security would patrol their "campground"

 

[old lady new shooter]

I think we too often conflate drug dealers with violent sociopaths. I would guess that many dealers view the violence surrounding their industry as a unfortunate but necessary risk, and would be delighted to enjoy a no-holdup safe zone. The folks who engage in holdups for drugs are probably a small, and very different minority in the industry.

In my old house, which was in a very "exclusive" neighborhood, the house next door to me was owned by two successive drug dealers. The first one had a donut shop that he was apparently dealing out of, the second one was a plastic surgeon specializing in breast implants who apparently figured out he could make more writing bogus prescriptions.

 

[Old Dog]

Sorry, but I don't buy into this anecdote as an "insight into how bad guys think." Not at all. Anyone who claims they have an insight into how criminals think hasn't known enough criminals.

Criminals are simply opportunists. They will do their criminal deeds as long as they can until someone stops them. Using as an example the city where the police have simply decided to stop policing won't convince me.

That city is the exception rather than the rule. Cities and law-enforcement agencies I'm familiar with would be on such a target-rich environment with great video coverage like flies on poop.

 

[jmf552]

Because Baltimore PD monitors THR to make sure no one talks smack against their fair city?

It's good that you are still guessing at the city, like you are in denial this just couldn't happen in any other NE city.

I don't know what the possibilities are. Stranger things have happened. But he's my brother and it's not my chance to take. I don't know why you are trying so hard to create a problem that doesn't need to be created.

 

[jmf552]

Deleted