Antique firearms and modern ammo
- Thread starter raubvogel
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Hypnogator
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Yes, it is an antique if manufactured before 1898, regardless of caliber. A S&W Model 1 dates from the late 1850s, and is chambered for the .22 Short. 
tightgroup tiger
Member
Yes, if it was manufactured before 1890 it has antique status. I wouldn't shoot modern high pressure ammunition out of anything that was made for black powder.
That would be asking for a disaster. They just won't take it.
Their were alot of rifles and revolvers that were cartridge guns like 45-70 gov and 45 long colt that are still current calibers today. But again, back then they were black powder and won't handle todays high pressure loads.
That would be asking for a disaster. They just won't take it.
Their were alot of rifles and revolvers that were cartridge guns like 45-70 gov and 45 long colt that are still current calibers today. But again, back then they were black powder and won't handle todays high pressure loads.
Romeo 33 Delta
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Now, there you go laddy! I have several Martini-Enfield .303's as well as a nice Magazine Lee Medford and a couple Magazine Lee Enfields. I feed all of them mild .303 handloads. (see Lee or other loading manuals for H4985 powder and 180gr bullets). No problems and accuracy depends on the bore condition and the guy on the trigger.
If you want to really get into some fun ... opt to move up to Martini-Henry MkII, MkIII or MkIV in the original .577-450 M-H. Yes, brass is expensive, you better learn to paper patch ... but there's nothing quite like showing up at the range with a rifle almost as long as you are tall that shoots a cartridge that looks like it was made for Elephants.
God save the Queen!
Front rank, FIRE, reload, Second rank, FIRE, reload, Third rank, FIRE, reload .
PS ... when firing, put your thumb on that depression on the right rear of the receiver ... it will keep you from smacking yourself on the bridge of your nose.
If you want to really get into some fun ... opt to move up to Martini-Henry MkII, MkIII or MkIV in the original .577-450 M-H. Yes, brass is expensive, you better learn to paper patch ... but there's nothing quite like showing up at the range with a rifle almost as long as you are tall that shoots a cartridge that looks like it was made for Elephants.
God save the Queen!
Front rank, FIRE, reload, Second rank, FIRE, reload, Third rank, FIRE, reload .
PS ... when firing, put your thumb on that depression on the right rear of the receiver ... it will keep you from smacking yourself on the bridge of your nose.
AlexanderA
Member
Under the GCA '68, any firearm actually manufactured before 1899 is an antique and thus not regulated, regardless of what ammunition it uses. However, there's a quirk for firearms that come under the National Firearms Act (machine guns, short-barrel guns, etc.). There, not only the date of manufacture, but also the ammunition, is important. According to the ATF:
Actually I do have a 1876 Martini-Henry MkII rifle, a 1963 Ishapore-made Lee Enfield SMLE No1 Mk III*, and now the 1881 (converted to MM in 1894) Martini-Metford carbine.
Whenever possible I will shoot the Enfield; last time I did shoot some surplus ammo on it but decided for the time being I will shoot commercial/non-berdan(sp?)/non-corrosive ammo just because. At that same time, I shot the MH for the first time (see http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?253385-First-time-shooting-the-M-H&), using Kynoch ammo. Much gentler than the Enfield, which IMHO does not kick that hard to begin with. But then again my standard is the Nagant Mossin and the one I dread the most: the Nagant carbine.
The reason I went for the Martini-Metford would be the same one I would as well get a Martini-Enfield: I can shoot reasonably priced ammo I already have and use.
That said, I would like to know how to reload Martini-Henry ammo; I did buy the dies but now need to find a press for the one I bought to reload the Enfield is too small (that's what she said!). And, no, I have not starting reloading that either. I will agree with you: the .577-450 M-H seems to impress more people than even a .50BMG. It is just evil-looking.
Whenever possible I will shoot the Enfield; last time I did shoot some surplus ammo on it but decided for the time being I will shoot commercial/non-berdan(sp?)/non-corrosive ammo just because. At that same time, I shot the MH for the first time (see http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?253385-First-time-shooting-the-M-H&), using Kynoch ammo. Much gentler than the Enfield, which IMHO does not kick that hard to begin with. But then again my standard is the Nagant Mossin and the one I dread the most: the Nagant carbine.
The reason I went for the Martini-Metford would be the same one I would as well get a Martini-Enfield: I can shoot reasonably priced ammo I already have and use.
That said, I would like to know how to reload Martini-Henry ammo; I did buy the dies but now need to find a press for the one I bought to reload the Enfield is too small (that's what she said!). And, no, I have not starting reloading that either. I will agree with you: the .577-450 M-H seems to impress more people than even a .50BMG. It is just evil-looking.
No it wasn't. There were chambered for a special S&W .22 cartridge that evolved into the .22 Short, but was substantially less powerful then today cartridges. Too many people have fired them under the impression that they are supposed to use .22 Short's, and been rewarded with cracked or burst cylinders. Do not fire any tip-up Smith & Wesson .22 with any currently available ammunition!
andrewstorm
member
antiques
PRE 1899 manufacture=antique status in the USA.....Pre 1898=antique status in Canada search "Pre 1899 F A Q"....It seems the lawmakers determined that the conventions on ammunition were not implemented until that date marking the widespread use of smokeless powder,Modern ammo is made to firearms manufacturers specifications,originally there were only caliber designations and confusing terminology,ammo was made to adapt to a certain group of firearms, for instance i have a ammo box that states use these cartridges only in standard firearms specifically chambered by the manufacturer for this cartridge and so inscribed on the barrel,AND be sure your gun is in good condition and originally designed for modern ammunition ,Meaning smokeless ammo,for a good source of info Search (The picture pages) @Old ammo.com
PRE 1899 manufacture=antique status in the USA.....Pre 1898=antique status in Canada search "Pre 1899 F A Q"....It seems the lawmakers determined that the conventions on ammunition were not implemented until that date marking the widespread use of smokeless powder,Modern ammo is made to firearms manufacturers specifications,originally there were only caliber designations and confusing terminology,ammo was made to adapt to a certain group of firearms, for instance i have a ammo box that states use these cartridges only in standard firearms specifically chambered by the manufacturer for this cartridge and so inscribed on the barrel,AND be sure your gun is in good condition and originally designed for modern ammunition ,Meaning smokeless ammo,for a good source of info Search (The picture pages) @Old ammo.com
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Romeo 33 Delta
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Jolly good show!
I have Lee dies and use a RCBS RockChucker with the standard die insert removed (allowing the BIG dies to thread directly into the press). You might consider the relatively new Lee Cast Classic ... I'm certain that their big dies should fit ... more on that in a subsequent post.
DISCLAIMER ... any loading data posted is safe and works for me, you use it at your own risk.
I shoot smokeless loads ... 36.0gr of #5744 with a 450gr bullet sized to .451" and paper patched to .460". Bertram brass. Winchester LR primers. (My MkIV uses a 480gr bullet sized to .453" and paper patched to .470" with 34.0gr of #5744).
I would try chambering all brass first, without resizing. If everything fits ... just worry about the neck. With subsequent firings/reloadings, I just leave the neck alone ... I can thumb-seat my bullets.
I always make certain to store my loads bullet up and when chambering for a shot, I elevate the barrel so the powder stays at the bottom of the case. I have NOT experienced hangfires or misfires or anything out of the ordinary and was surprised how accuracy got better and better over the first couple of shots. (The paper patch was scouring the grooves of lead and crud and after about 3 or 4 shots ... nice round holes just about where I wanted them to be).
I have read about guys neck sizing with .458 Win Mag die or a .480 Ruger (IIRC). I haven't tried that yet. I think it is important to never overwork the brass ... just too expensive. If you can neck size just enough to hold the bullet ... that's what's best ... hence thumb seating if possible.
I hope that some time this year my gunsmith gets one of my Martini Project Rifles done. I have a number of distressed but otherwise sound Martinis and want him to take one and build it with a .450" bore/ .458" groove. Then I can shoot either paper patched .450"/.459" or a host of .459" grease groove bullets, but still be in full military condition ... though I will probably get some aperture sights mounted on it.
My caster died and I don't want to mess with casting and the cost of "Martini" lead gets expensive ... so I just put the money in a rifle instead.
Hope this was of some help. I've probably out 75 rounds downrange with this combination and it sure was fun!
I have Lee dies and use a RCBS RockChucker with the standard die insert removed (allowing the BIG dies to thread directly into the press). You might consider the relatively new Lee Cast Classic ... I'm certain that their big dies should fit ... more on that in a subsequent post.
DISCLAIMER ... any loading data posted is safe and works for me, you use it at your own risk.
I shoot smokeless loads ... 36.0gr of #5744 with a 450gr bullet sized to .451" and paper patched to .460". Bertram brass. Winchester LR primers. (My MkIV uses a 480gr bullet sized to .453" and paper patched to .470" with 34.0gr of #5744).
I would try chambering all brass first, without resizing. If everything fits ... just worry about the neck. With subsequent firings/reloadings, I just leave the neck alone ... I can thumb-seat my bullets.
I always make certain to store my loads bullet up and when chambering for a shot, I elevate the barrel so the powder stays at the bottom of the case. I have NOT experienced hangfires or misfires or anything out of the ordinary and was surprised how accuracy got better and better over the first couple of shots. (The paper patch was scouring the grooves of lead and crud and after about 3 or 4 shots ... nice round holes just about where I wanted them to be).
I have read about guys neck sizing with .458 Win Mag die or a .480 Ruger (IIRC). I haven't tried that yet. I think it is important to never overwork the brass ... just too expensive. If you can neck size just enough to hold the bullet ... that's what's best ... hence thumb seating if possible.
I hope that some time this year my gunsmith gets one of my Martini Project Rifles done. I have a number of distressed but otherwise sound Martinis and want him to take one and build it with a .450" bore/ .458" groove. Then I can shoot either paper patched .450"/.459" or a host of .459" grease groove bullets, but still be in full military condition ... though I will probably get some aperture sights mounted on it.
My caster died and I don't want to mess with casting and the cost of "Martini" lead gets expensive ... so I just put the money in a rifle instead.
Hope this was of some help. I've probably out 75 rounds downrange with this combination and it sure was fun!
NFA & Firearms
The NFA defines firearm as follows:
“[t]he term “firearm” means … (8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm..."
26 U.S.C. § 5845(a).
The NFA defines antique firearm as:
“(g) Antique firearm The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.”
26 U.S.C. § 5845(g).
United States v. Tribunella, 749 F.2d 104, 109 (2nd Cir. 1984)
"We read § 5845(g) as excluding from the definition of antique any firearm for which any usable ammunition is readily available in ordinary channels of commerce."
The NFA defines firearm as follows:
“[t]he term “firearm” means … (8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm..."
26 U.S.C. § 5845(a).
The NFA defines antique firearm as:
“(g) Antique firearm The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.”
26 U.S.C. § 5845(g).
United States v. Tribunella, 749 F.2d 104, 109 (2nd Cir. 1984)
"We read § 5845(g) as excluding from the definition of antique any firearm for which any usable ammunition is readily available in ordinary channels of commerce."
Romeo 33 Delta
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I just reread ... gotta' a kick (pun intended) about your comment about your Nagant carbine. About the only other one I have that comes close is an Austrian M-95 Carbine (8 X 56R) ... that sucker's also just MEAN AND NASTY waiting to happen. My shoulder hurts just thinking about those two carbines!
andrewstorm
member
Tipro....in US vs introcaso (2007)the 3 rd circuit court held.............
That a 11 in barreled shotgun made before 1898 Made for 18.2 shotgun shells using fixed ammo 12 GA to be exact was indeed an antique defining the words not made for modern ammunition as referring to the original ammo intended,so not to unfairly burden collectors and museum curators.
the Batf has determined that any firearm except machine guns,and distructive devices, made in or before 1898 is an antique,and not subject to the provisions of the gun control act of 1968, or the n f a ,search"PRE 1899 F A Q"for more info and a list of firearms with pre 1899 manufactured frames or recievers,
That a 11 in barreled shotgun made before 1898 Made for 18.2 shotgun shells using fixed ammo 12 GA to be exact was indeed an antique defining the words not made for modern ammunition as referring to the original ammo intended,so not to unfairly burden collectors and museum curators.
the Batf has determined that any firearm except machine guns,and distructive devices, made in or before 1898 is an antique,and not subject to the provisions of the gun control act of 1968, or the n f a ,search"PRE 1899 F A Q"for more info and a list of firearms with pre 1899 manufactured frames or recievers,
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Owen Sparks
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I have an old S&W revolver in .23-20. I did some research and found that the serial number indicated that it was not rated for somkless powder. Apparantly gun makers had to use stronger steel to accomidate the high pressure when smokeless powder first came on the market.
I am going to presume that you met .32-20 rather then .23-20. I of course would never make such a mistake...
Sure I wouldn't.
Smith & Wesson started heat-treating .32-20 K-frame cylinders in May, 1919 (some say September, 1919), at about serial number 81,287. By that time Winchester was making a line of hot-loaded .32-20 ammunition designated "For use in rifles only! Of course some folks didn't bother to read the warning and apparently some came to wish they had.
Smith & Wesson responded by upgraging the steel in the cylinders and heat treating them.
If your revolver's serial number preceeds the one listed be careful what you feed it.
Sure I wouldn't.
Smith & Wesson started heat-treating .32-20 K-frame cylinders in May, 1919 (some say September, 1919), at about serial number 81,287. By that time Winchester was making a line of hot-loaded .32-20 ammunition designated "For use in rifles only! Of course some folks didn't bother to read the warning and apparently some came to wish they had.
Smith & Wesson responded by upgraging the steel in the cylinders and heat treating them.
If your revolver's serial number preceeds the one listed be careful what you feed it.
andrewstorm
member
exempt from N F A
In Michigan,The Marble game getter in 44 game getter caliber(44/40) I think has been exempted by the A T F,There is a list of exempted firearms on the atf web site,ant that's the place to go for reliable advice, It boils down to regular firearms that are antique(pre 1899 manufacture) its no matter what fixed ammo they use the exempt status prevails (G C A 1968) Short barreled shotguns and rifles and items classified as destructive devices must not be designed for modern ammunition in order to qualify for exempt status under the National Firearms ACT of 1938,which regulates machine guns ,short barreled shotguns,s b rifles,and destructive devices.
In Michigan,The Marble game getter in 44 game getter caliber(44/40) I think has been exempted by the A T F,There is a list of exempted firearms on the atf web site,ant that's the place to go for reliable advice, It boils down to regular firearms that are antique(pre 1899 manufacture) its no matter what fixed ammo they use the exempt status prevails (G C A 1968) Short barreled shotguns and rifles and items classified as destructive devices must not be designed for modern ammunition in order to qualify for exempt status under the National Firearms ACT of 1938,which regulates machine guns ,short barreled shotguns,s b rifles,and destructive devices.
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