Appropriate response to children attacking man in DC Metro

[roguejestyr]

a few days ago this event happened in one of the transfer stations of the DC Metro. to summarize, a 47 yr old man was harassed and attacked by a group of kids (11-12 yr olds or so), while it was caught on camera by bystanders, who did nothing to help the man. what would be the appropriate response to something like this? seeing as how DC has strict gun laws, will a response involving pepper spray be justified?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/06/children-attack-man-in-dc_n_805223.html

i will be moving to one of the DC suburbs shortly, and will be taking the DC Metro to and from work, and would like to be prepared for any eventuality.

 

[MEHavey]

Had even one adult stepped in w/ authority and used physical force to restrain the children/put them on the ground, this would have never gotten past stage one. (God help you if you shoot a pre-adolescent child under almost any circumstance.)

The fault of this incident lies as much (or more) w/ the bystanders as the parents, and "Authorities" are always just-minutes-away.

[Preaching to the Choir now]: You want your city/community back? Deserve it and act like citizens instead of sheep. (Post 9/11 air passengers finally figured this out)

_________________
The wise man molds himself.
The fool lives only to die.

 

[kingpin008]

Well, an appropriate response would be other commuters stepping in and stopping the kids from acting the fool.

Barring outside intervention, I would think that continuing to create distance is the best option. In the video, it looks like he tries to back up and evade them, yet when they stop for a second he hangs around and argues with them. To me, that's foolish. Get away while you can. They might be kids, but they've got you outnumbered and even a kid can pack a gun or a blade.

As for methods of personal protection, you're gonna be fairly limited in D.C. no matter what you do. My first instinct in that situation is pepper spray. I have a feeling that this particular attack took place because these kids felt that they had an easy target that they could gang up on. It's a "pack" mentality - the pack goes after prey they percieve weakness in - but when that prey turns out to have teeth and fight back, they lose some steam. If he were to fight back in a more meaningful way, rather than just flailing at them, there's a good chance (IMHO) that it wouldn't have gone as far as it did.

 

[kingpin008]

So, I wasn't quite sure what the legalities of pepper spray was in D.C., so I went a-googling and turned up this:

§ 7-2501.01. Definitions.

As used in this unit the term:

(7) "Destructive device" means:
...
(C) Any device containing tear gas or a chemically similar lacrimator or sternutator by whatever name known;

§ 7-2502.12. Definition of self-defense spray.

For the purposes of §§ 7-2502.12 through 7-2502.14, the term:

"Self-defense spray" means a mixture of a lacrimator including chloroacetophenone, alphacloracetophenone, phenylchloromethylketone, orthochlorobenazalm-alononitrile or oleoresin capsicum.

§ 7-2502.13. Possession of self-defense sprays.

(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of § 7-2501.01(7)(C), a person 18 years of age or older may possess and use a self-defense spray in the exercise of reasonable force in defense of the person or the person's property only if it is propelled from an aerosol container, labeled with or accompanied by clearly written instructions as to its use, and dated to indicate its anticipated useful life.

(b) No person shall possess a self-defense spray which is of a type other than that specified in §§ 7-2502.12 to 7-2502.14.

§ 7-2502.14. Registration of self-defense

(a) A person 18 years of age or older must register the self-defense spray at the time of purchase by completing a standard registration form.

(b) The vendor must forward the registration form to the Metropolitan Police Department.

§ 7-2507.06. Penalties.

Any person convicted of a violation of any provision of this unit shall be fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned for not more than 1 year, or both; except that:

(1) A person who knowingly or intentionally sells, transfers, or distributes a firearm, destructive device, or ammunition to a person under 18 years of age shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both.

(2)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B) of this paragraph, any person who is convicted a second time for possessing an unregistered firearm shall be fined not more than $5,000 or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

(B) A person who in the person's dwelling place, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, possesses a pistol, or firearm that could otherwise be registered, shall be fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(3) A person convicted of knowingly possessing restricted pistol bullets in violation of § 7-2506.01(3) may be sentenced to imprisonment for a term not to exceed 10 years and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for a mandatory-minimum term of not less than 1 year and shall not be released from prison or granted probation or suspension of sentence prior to serving the mandatory-minimum sentence, and, in addition, may be fined an amount not to exceed $10,000.

Basically: If you use pepper spray, it had better be registered. If not, you're looking at a fine and/or jail time.

 

[sansone]

like the couple attacked by teens outside a movie theater days ago, the only thing you can do is flee. Without question bystanders should have intervened, but that never happens any more.. can you say: "baaaah"

 

[Derek Zeanah]

I'm torn here. They're kids, and the "bystanders" seem for the most part to be kids laughing and filming with cell phones, but it's still assault, and it can still go really, really wrong.

So, you're assaulted by multiple assailants from in front and behind. Is it ok to defend yourself? Sure. What if some of the assailants are teenage girls and boys? Are they immune to a physical response because of their age?

This is a serious question -- if it were three men and you'd have no problem breaking bones in an attempt to defend yourself, how does your response change if it's 5 "kids" with a dozen friends with cell phones watching from the sides? Does the presence of a video record change anything?

I don't know the answers here. But I only have one "speed" when forced into a physical confrontation, and I don't really understand the repercussions of a headline like "40 year old 250lb man puts two teens in hospital, one a 15 year old girl." Looks like a no win situation any way you look at it.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Been there, done that. Had 6 of the little hellions attempt to jump me at the Amtrak station once. Don't know what was in their foolish little heads. Attacking a man of my stature, even with 6 to 1 odds, is foolish when you weigh no more than 100 pounds. Smacked the lead idiot upside the head (open handed) putting him straight to the ground. Grabbed the next little idiot with one hand, threw him into 3 of the other little morons, knocking all of them down. Then asked a simple question of them, "Are you all COMPLETELY retarded or just partially" I guess they got the point since they picked themselves up and ran off (pointing and screaming profanities and threats to which I laughed pretty hard)

Kids today simply need that little rear end busted firmly! Spare the rod, spoil the child! My kids aint spoiled! The bystanders in that video need their butts kicked just as much as the little punks that were attacking the poor guy. I guess I may be in the minority when saying this but I don't care if you are 12 or 40, you hit me be prepared to get your head cracked. Step into a mans shoes, be ready to get knocked out of them! I have taught all my kids how to fight and with 2 very simple and easily understood rules, "Someone hits you, hit them back. If you start a fight, and I find out that you started it, be prepared for a butt kicking from Daddy!"

 

[sansone]

I'm all for kicking their little asses. Their parents obviously never did or not often enough. As said earlier, my dad would have beaten the snot out of me for just BEING with kids like that. Parents are to blame here my friends. If you can't raise children to show respect then you should be charged with the crimes your children commit. As for tactics: I still say flee if attacked by children, only because of the legal consequences

 

[KBintheSLC]

It's nothing a good old fashioned ass whoopin won't cure. Too bad there wasn't anyone around with the gonads to do it.

 

[kingpin008]

What if some of the assailants are teenage girls and boys? Are they immune to a physical response because of their age?

In my opinion, the answer is a firm NO. Teens are just as capable of causing injury as adults. The fact that they're young should be no excuse. I don't care how terrible your upbringing is, harassing and assaulting innocent people is NOT OK. If it takes a "victim" fighting back to get that through their thick skulls, then so be it.

This is a serious question -- if it were three men and you'd have no problem breaking bones in an attempt to defend yourself, how does your response change if it's 5 "kids" with a dozen friends with cell phones watching from the sides? Does the presence of a video record change anything?

No, my response would be the same. I don't like to fight and I'm not very good at it. However, I will if I have to. Another issue is that at this point in time, my physical ability to sustain even a low-level attack is minimal. If it had been me in the video, even the pushing and mobbing the kids were doing to the guy would have screwed my back up plenty. I don't have time for physical therapy anymore so after three stern, loud warnings to leave me alone,they'd get as much as I could give 'em, short of deadly force.

If anything, the presence of a visual record of the attack would be a good thing. When the cops show up, there will be clear visual proof of what happened. Me being accosted, screaming for help and for them to leave me alone, the kids continuing, and the kids getting a face full of OC. Case closed, ya know?

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

Think of the outrage.



"MAN TORTURES KIDS WITH PEPPER SPRAY ON METRO"


It's a tricky situation for sure.

 

[roguejestyr]

kingpin008,

good info about the pepper spray, question on the registration. if the spray was bought somewhere else, i.e. gun show in VA, will it still need to be registered with DC? after reading your post it sounds to me like you only need to register if bought in DC.

 

[sansone]

"man burns eyeballs of little children at metro station".. charges pending /// this is what the evening news would report

 

[Shadow 7D]

City did a huge 'man with a gun' thing, interrupting radio etc. locking down schools

guy was shopping at a local mall when a group of 'delinquents' (it was school hours, so they should have been in school) mobbed him, he pulled a gun, a panicked witness called the cops about a man chasing kids with a gun.

The did a real small press release later that day, the guy drove off, and called cops a block away, seems the 'kids' where trying to rob him and assaulted him, cops said he was justified pulling his gun.

 

[kingpin008]

Spec Ops & Sansone - I really think that's a stretch. There's cell phone video of the incident, that clearly shows who the aggressors are. The DC Metro system is also VERY well covered with security cameras. Chances are, they caught it too.

Rogue - I wonder that too. The info I found is a bit confusing. One source seems to say that you have to register it only if it was purchased in DC. Another indicates that ALL pepper spray must be registered. Both are official sources, so I really have no idea.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

pepper spray bad if you are lucky they just take it from you

 

[Shadow 7D]

Um, point is to spray the hellions and retreat covered by them crying, hopefully that will take the fight out of them if not, it hopefully buys you time and dissuades the less determined, so you have better odds if they come back at you.

That said, most kids think they are invincible, and most will run once they find it's not a vastly unfair fight but the few that stay are very dangerous, they don't care and have no concern for the future.

 

[unloved]

Appropriate response? Open handed slap to the side of the head. Repeat as necessary.

 

[kingpin008]

pepper spray bad if you are lucky they just take it from you

Not really. Pepper spray can be very effective, especially against an attacker who isn't stoned or hell bent on kicking some serious you-know-what.

And not trying to be rude, but proper punctuation and sentence formation really helps people understand what you're trying to say.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i meant that pepper spray is bad in dc. if you are lucky the cops will just take it and warn you. not lucky they write you for it. i spent most of a couple decades in dc or just outside it

 

[Zoogster]

Had the man fought back the fact that he was initially attacked will often not even be a part of the story.
A typical example would go as follows:

Headline:
"47 year old predator attacks children in public at DC metro station."
Details:
"The victims range in age from 11-12, including a young girl that tried to fight back. The man's intentions are unknown at this time, but the young childrens' brave actions may have thwarted the attacker.
Victims claim they have no idea why the older man attacked them. The police investigation is ongoing."

Reaction of random interviewed parents told the exaggerated story:
"It is getting so that you cannot even feel safe allowing your children to go out and play in broad daylight."
"Grown men preying on children, we need tougher laws".
"Events like this and ____(cites another story where a predatory really did victimize a child) make me fear for my child's safety."


Yeah without video or willing witnesses the story can be totally different from reality, and all the little assailants are friends and witnesses telling a story that makes the victim look like the bad guy.

If anything, the presence of a visual record of the attack would be a good thing. When the cops show up, there will be clear visual proof of what happened.

Sometimes. That assumes the individual that films it both lets police know the video exists, and police take their phone as evidence. Since many are not going to want their phones or cameras taken, and others may side with the young attackers, just because it is videotaped does not mean the video will be seen by authorities.
Additionally the video can start after the initial attack, showing only the defender lashing out at the attackers. Making them look more like the assailant or that they overreacted because the justification leading up to it is absent from the video.

Grainy video, or cell videos that point towards and away from events also can fail to give an adequate sense of danger or tension present especially when it is more subtle (like a group surrounding an individual in a predatory manner leading up to their attack) before they capture the much more obvious actions of the defender. Once again making the actions of the defender look more extreme than reality.

 

[Sniper X]

I had a kid threaten me once. I told him be ready to loose a fight if he got more aggressive. BTW this was late at night at a gas station. He said, Old man, (I think I was about 27 at the time) I'll get you arrested if you touch me! I said calmly, you can't make a phone call with a broken neck....he and his biddies backed off and went away. This was in Salinas California and I was on my way home from the gun range at Laguna Secca. I had a loaded GP100 in my holster and was standing by my car at a gas pump....none of them noticed the gun.

 

[Cosmoline]

The video quality is extremely poor, but I see NOTHING to warrant intervention. He's not on the ground, he's holding his own and he seems to be arguing back to them and not fleeing. NO WAY am I going to intrude. If I throw my mass in on his side how do I know I'm on the right side? Moreover, how do I know this isn't mutual combat? That makes me a participant in a mutual combat, and liable criminally and civilly for assault.

I have some rules of thumb about this kind of thing. If there's pushing and yelling, I keep an eye open but don't do anything. If it escalates to punching and kicking I'll call 911. If blood flows and/or the victor continues to attack a downed loser, I will use words and non-deadly force to back the victor off if possible.

Particularly if you're armed, you need to be real careful about playing the hero when you don't know the full story. As far as straightening the youngsters out, that's about the worst reason to go beating someone up. You are not their parents, and your boot is not going to remedy their many problems. Proceed with caution.

 

[mljdeckard]

Call 911, continue to record them. I don't escalate force.

 

[The Undertaker]

Under ordinary circumstances, get out of harm's way (such as get into a vehicle) and call the police.

If finding immediate refuge is not possible (if you are stuck on a subway training, for example), hold them attackers off with the appropriate level of force - i.e. no unwarranted, excessive force.

However, if the little bastards mean to do you lethal harm (knives, broken bottles, sharpened screwdrivers), respond in kind. If armed, draw and prepare to fire. If unarmed, use your superior physical strength and introduce one of their skulls to the nearest hard surface (preferably the ringleader's). In my experience, delinquent children at that age are fundamentally cowards - they will attack if they believe that they have an advantage, but will immediately recoil in fear should you prove to be able to defend yourself.

Media fallout be damned. Personally, I'd rather stand before twelve than be carried by six.