AR vs shotgun in home defense discrepancy

[Doc7]

Just reading some threads on various topics as I always do when a new build is in mind (Home defense carbine at the moment).

I frequently read on these and other forums that folks prefer to keep a pump action shotgun loaded and chambered with safety on as their defensive weapon, reasons being that a) it's a myth that shucking the shotgun will scare off an intruder (I agree) and b) working the action gives too much information to the person seeking to harm you, such as location, etc.

At the same time, the vast majority of people on threads discussing storage of defensive AR pattern rifles store them unchambered with the bolt closed, maybe a magazine installed, varying combos of safety position and barrel up / down.

I don't know why it is but it seems counter intuitive to me because working the action on an AR is much louder than a pump action shotgun is. It makes my ears ring in a closed bedroom. I don't know who is right but I thought this to be an interesting discrepancy.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Any home defense weapon at my house has a round chambered and a safety on if applicable.

 

[LiveLife]

Defensive weapons should be ready to fire, especially if you are going to use it from sleep as you may not have time to rack a round in the chamber. Undoing the safety is much faster and quieter.

pump action shotgun ... It makes my ears ring in a closed bedroom.

Even a pistol will make my ears ring when fired inside the house.

When we lived in high crime area of a city we moved from, this was our set up:

- Tactical vest loaded with pistol, magazines, cell phone and flashlight (Very easy to don vest quickly).
- I then reached for pump shotgun while my wife reached for AR (we switched from .223 to 300 BLK)

If our 3 dogs didn't stop barking or there was obvious signs of intrusion, we assume defensive shooting positions towards hallway.

AR vs shotgun in home defense descrepancy

Why not both?

If I was alone in the house, I would sling the AR and grab the shotgun.

 

[cdb1]

Any home defense weapon at my house has a round chambered and a safety on if applicable.

Same here.

 

[mjsdwash]

deleted

 

[mjsdwash]

Even a pistol will make my ears ring when fired inside the house.

When we lived in high crime area of a city we moved from, this was our set up:

- Tactical vest loaded with pistol, magazines, cell phone and flashlight (Very easy to don vest quickly).
- I then reached for pump shotgun while my wife reached for AR (we switched from .223 to 300 BLK)

If our 3 dogs didn't stop barking or there was obvious signs of intrusion, we assume defensive shooting positions towards hallway.


Why not both?

If I was alone in the house, I would sling the AR and grab the shotgun.

just working the action of an AR is ear ringing, I agree

 

[entropy]

It makes a lot less noise when actually chambering a round. The only sound from any of my guns they'd hear is the 'snick' of the safety. Their reaction to my commands will determine what they hear next.

 

[kBob]

In my direct personal experience the sound of an 870 shotgun being cycled to load can cause four people armed with farm implements sneaking up on a deputy serving a warrant to drop the tools and assume unthreatenting postures, well before they figured out where I was.

My sister was alone at home when an intruder entered her dark home around 2 am. When she asked if it was her husband (he was supposed to be at an out of state meeting) the intruder laughed. When she cycled the action of her Remington Speedmaster .22 rifle the intruder left without bothering to open the screen door and cut him self up on its remains in passing.

Look, in the old NRA Personal Protection Course we taught folks to YELL "Who is there? Go away, I have a gun. I am calling the police." 99 plus percent of home invaders will leave if they think you have a gun and announcing so by racking an action gives not one thing away that ain't helpful.

Do you not plan to inquire who is in your home or why? Do you not plan to offer them the chance to leave peaceably?

Do you really want to explain how you and your wife waited quietly IN AMBUSH for that poor drunk or confused teen that entered your home at 3AM before you murdered him to a jury?

Castle Doctrine is not the same as "FREE FIRE ZONE" despite what the Antis would have us believe.

If the invaders are the type that are going to hear an AR 15, 10, or 180 or a pump shotgun rack and think "Aha! We have them now!" You don't need HD guns you need air and arty on call and a mine and wire belt.

Look folks, if you crank a chainsaw in a riot, rioters DO NOT charge you to take it away...........and if one does, it gets ugly for them real fast yet no one feels much sorry for them, as to quote our lately departed JP "Evolution in action."

-kBob

 

[ColtPythonElite]

There may be a time that I simply do not want to give away my position. I certainly do not want to be sitting there with an empty chamber if things start to happen quickly.

 

[Theohazard]

In these discussions people often seem to forget that in order to intentionally use the sound of the action to scare someone away, it probably means one of two things: Either you kept your chamber empty until the intruder was close enough that you knew he could hear it, or it means you just racked the action and got rid of the round in the chamber, which on many pump shotguns is about 20% of your ammo. Neither of those seem like a good idea to me.

Sure, if you keep your home defense weapon in Condition 3 and the sound of racking a round into the chamber happens to scare them away, that's great. But I'm not going to intentionally wait until I know the intruder is within earshot to load my weapon, and I'm also not going to work the action just to make noise when there's already a round in the chamber.

 

[LiveLife]

Look, in the old NRA Personal Protection Course we taught folks to YELL "Who is there? Go away, I have a gun. I am calling the police." 99 plus percent of home invaders will leave if they think you have a gun and announcing so by racking an action gives not one thing away that ain't helpful.

Do you not plan to inquire who is in your home or why? Do you not plan to offer them the chance to leave peaceably?

Unfortunately, times have changed. With meth/drug addicts who don't care and gang bangers who "think" they are better armed with greater number to overtake even armed home owners (City we left, 5-7 gang bangers would kick the back/kitchen door armed with pistols and AK-47s in home invasion robberies while 2 posted spotters watch the street), simply racking the slide of a shotgun may not make them running out the house anymore. It happens all the time in the cities now - armed home owners yell at the intruders "I got a gun and on the phone with 911" and the bad guys still kick in the door and get shot. Maybe the bad guys got the wrong house of someone who owes them money/drug or it's a gang hit ... regardless, they are going to come in the house no matter what you say.

That's why we went from 1 dog to 3 dogs when we lived in the cities as if the intruders were not deterred by the dogs, there's no need to rack the slide of the shotgun as we need to be shooting anyone that comes walking down the hallway.

If our 3 dogs didn't stop barking or there was obvious signs of intrusion, we assume defensive shooting positions towards hallway.

Sad state of reality but true.

 

[FL-NC]

In my direct personal experience the sound of an 870 shotgun being cycled to load can cause four people armed with farm implements sneaking up on a deputy serving a warrant to drop the tools and assume unthreatenting postures, well before they figured out where I was.

My sister was alone at home when an intruder entered her dark home around 2 am. When she asked if it was her husband (he was supposed to be at an out of state meeting) the intruder laughed. When she cycled the action of her Remington Speedmaster .22 rifle the intruder left without bothering to open the screen door and cut him self up on its remains in passing.

Look, in the old NRA Personal Protection Course we taught folks to YELL "Who is there? Go away, I have a gun. I am calling the police." 99 plus percent of home invaders will leave if they think you have a gun and announcing so by racking an action gives not one thing away that ain't helpful.

Do you not plan to inquire who is in your home or why? Do you not plan to offer them the chance to leave peaceably?

Do you really want to explain how you and your wife waited quietly IN AMBUSH for that poor drunk or confused teen that entered your home at 3AM before you murdered him to a jury?

Castle Doctrine is not the same as "FREE FIRE ZONE" despite what the Antis would have us believe.

If the invaders are the type that are going to hear an AR 15, 10, or 180 or a pump shotgun rack and think "Aha! We have them now!" You don't need HD guns you need air and arty on call and a mine and wire belt.

Look folks, if you crank a chainsaw in a riot, rioters DO NOT charge you to take it away...........and if one does, it gets ugly for them real fast yet no one feels much sorry for them, as to quote our lately departed JP "Evolution in action."

-kBob

Just because something worked once or has a often-repeated reputation for working doesn't make it good tactics. I would prefer to rely on good tactics instead of relying on bluffing my way out of a situation that I didn't initiate in my own house (or hotel room, or whatever) and giving an adversary 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances. In my experience, choreography is best for movies, and plans are often a list of things that don't happen- the more intricate the plan, the more likely it won't happen. No discussions, no negotiations, no tactical meetings, no second guessing intentions. The chance to leave peacefully expires once I feel threatened. As far as explanations to juries or whatever, I do have a solid plan to say what my attorney advises me to say. And for the record, I don't remember many of the intricate details of the numerous gunfights I have been in- most of which I saw coming before they started. As I understand, this is normal, and I don't expect it to change for me next time, if there is a next time. Remember- these situations are almost always reactive and defensive. If you are reacting, you are way behind, and if you are behind, you are losing. A few afterthoughts- an AMBUSH is defined by Websters as "to attack by surprise from a hidden place". In a HD scenario, the elements just aren't there. Attacking and defending are opposites, and the element of surprise was exploited AGAINST the home defender. Hiding from a threat in your own dwelling probably wouldn't normally be considered an overly aggressive tactic, in most cases. Also, if the sounds of various weapons being cocked could really be relied upon as a fail-safe fight stopper- why don't people just keep digital recording of these sounds to be played in such an instance?

 

[cfullgraf]

Where you live can dictate what you use for home defense, shot gun. rifle, and/or pistol.

Here are my choices. Your choices may be different and I fully respect your choices.

We live out in the country on a small horse farm. I have strategically located Remington 870s around the farm for four legged critter control. There are coyotes in our area of East TN but for the most part, the horses keep them away. A friend has taken a bobcat off our property and we have seen another in the area. Opossums and raccoons carry diseases that are harmful to horses.

For other defense purposes on the farm, I feel the 30 Carbine is a good round. But, I would not subject a WWII USGI carbine to that service and post war carbines are not reliable enough. Enter the 300 BLK in a AR-15 platform. Good performance with super sonic rounds a bit better than the 30 carbine out to 60-80 yards with a rainbow trajectory beyond that to minimize collateral damage.

I do keep a bedside handgun and we have a couple of 65 lb dogs with mouths full of "weapons" for an early warning system.

 

[MistWolf]

Doc7, getting back to your original point, it does seem counter intuitive to keep your defensive AR with an empty chamber

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I have oft commented here at other forums that my HD guns are kept with loaded mags and empty chambers. I do have a couple sidearms that are completely ready to go (one in the chamber, fully loaded mag) but those are not what I would grab first. Part of this is because I expect to have more warning at home than I would on the street. Yeah, I understand that could be a mistake but I know my home and it's defenses well. It's going to be very difficult to get through my door quickly and impossible to do so quietly given the types of reinforcements I use. The second reason is that in my current place my first choice of firearm will be a Mossberg 500 loaded with Federal Flite-Control 00 Buck; to my knowledge there are not shotguns on the market that are drop safe. So my Mossy is kept cruiser-ready. Yeah, I sacrifice one round as second or two to rack one into the chamber but I'm more likely to drop or knock a gun over than I am to suffer a home invasion (and this isn't a guess- I've knocked guns over in the past).

Note that I'm not claiming my way should be your way. This is just the decision I have made based on my circumstances.

As to AR vs shotgun, I'll leave that eternal argument for another time. Personally I have generally preferred the AR for HD but in my current place I feel the shottie is a better choice. In another home I may opt for the AR.

 

[jmr40]

My handguns are 1st line of defense inside the home. Those in the safe have loaded magazines, empty chambers. Outside the safe there is a round chambered. The AR is secondary and a better option outside. It doesn't need to be ready to go in a split second. It isn't carried on my person inside the home. It is nearby as are loaded mags, but they aren't in the mag well. The AR can be ready in 2 seconds if needed. This is the same procedures virtually all LE agencies use with long guns in patrol cars. And those guys are far, far more likely to need their weapons than I am. I don't see the need to use any different procedure.

My shotguns are unloaded and in the safe, but if they were in my defense plan I'd have a loaded mag with empty chamber. The reasoning is that it takes far longer to load a shotgun magazine than to insert a mag in an AR. One of the many reasons I prefer an AR.

The threat of actually needing any of them is extremely small where I live. If the threat level were different I might revise my plans.

 

[justice06rr]

Just reading some threads on various topics as I always do when a new build is in mind (Home defense carbine at the moment).

I frequently read on these and other forums that folks prefer to keep a pump action shotgun loaded and chambered with safety on as their defensive weapon, reasons being that a) it's a myth that shucking the shotgun will scare off an intruder (I agree) and b) working the action gives too much information to the person seeking to harm you, such as location, etc.

At the same time, the vast majority of people on threads discussing storage of defensive AR pattern rifles store them unchambered with the bolt closed, maybe a magazine installed, varying combos of safety position and barrel up / down.

I don't know why it is but it seems counter intuitive to me because working the action on an AR is much louder than a pump action shotgun is. It makes my ears ring in a closed bedroom. I don't know who is right but I thought this to be an interesting discrepancy.

Yes, a defensive weapon should be loaded and ready to go.

But everyone has a different comfort level or setup. It just depends on the individual. An unchambered long gun is easy to get into action and also more safe (no ND/AD possible if the chamber is empty). You can always store it with the bolt locked back with a full mag, safety on if possible. Takes half a second to load. Now if that's too loud, then just store it chambered with safety on.

For me, my long guns are stored with a full mag/empty chamber. while handguns/ccw are chambered. Its just a preference.

Lastly, If the house is dark, you still wont know my location if I chamber a round (at least in my home).

 

[MachIVshooter]

it's a myth that shucking the shotgun will scare off an intruder (I agree) and b) working the action gives too much information to the person seeking to harm you, such as location, etc.

Yes and no. Chambering a round in any firearm may work, as it indicates to the intruder that you're both alert and armed. Where the myth lies is that such noises can be counted on to deter an invader.

I keep a Glock 20 and a suppressed 10.5" SBR'd AR in 5.56 for defense. The G20 is kept condition one. The AR is full mag, empty chamber. The thinking is that if I'm startled awake and need to use a weapon immediately, the handgun is easier to get into action anyway. If I have time to take up a defensive position or decide to go scouring the house for an intruder, I have more than enough time to chamber a round in the rifle.

Another part of it for me is that long guns have no passive safeties, so unlikely as it may be, especially with an AR, if anything causes the hammer to drop, they will fire, where most modern handguns require the trigger be pulled.

 

[chicharrones]

For me, my long guns are stored with a full mag/empty chamber. while handguns/ccw are chambered. Its just a preference.

My preference, too.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Knowledge is power. I don't believe in giving my adversary more power than I have. When you chamber a round you provide the intruder with knowledge of both your location and you tell them you are armed. You know neither of these things about them, so you are providing them with information about yourself that you lack about them. The intruder already has the initiative-- which means you are already reacting (not acting), and now further provided them with more power (information). This is not a good way to start a potential armed encounter. It's like getting the ball with bad field position and then telling the defense what play you are running.

My home defense plan is to post up in a hallway with a firearm and a flashlight and wait for intruder to come to me. They have about 1/4 of a second when 999 lumens of white light hits them in the face to empty their hands and make themselves as nonthreatening as possible before they have holes blasted through their chest. I will not search my house by myself if it can be avoided.

But all defensive firearms are kept loaded with a round in the chamber and on 'safe.' (Condition 1)

 

[z7]

Condition of firearms must depend on where it is kept and if there are kids around.

I have a pistol out of reach and hidden from the kids, but condition 3 with the striker down

My ar15, which I want to use if I feel threatened, is in a safe, condition 3. The safe is quick to open but not quick enough so I grab a pistol and my wife accesses the safe in the bedroom closet,

I also live in a good neighborhood so our defensive posture is different than living in a high crime area.

Regardless of how you store things, train and rehearse your actions, and respond to strange bumps or noises like you would to a window breaking. How often do you hear something odd and go check it out unarmed?


For me, I worry about my kids more than I worry about an intruder, but in 10 seconds or so I am out of bed with a glock 35 that I shoot often and very well, and it is stored that my kids would find it very difficult to find, get ahold of and load,

The other night there was a loud bang as a picture fell off a wall, poor mounting When we moved in, but it was a good dress rehearsal,

Arm,l yourself and begin the ooda loop

 

[justice06rr]

Knowledge is power. I don't believe in giving my adversary more power than I have. When you chamber a round you provide the intruder with knowledge of both your location and you tell them you are armed. You know neither of these things about them, so you are providing them with information about yourself that you lack about them. The intruder already has the initiative-- which means you are already reacting (not acting), and now further provided them with more power (information). This is not a good way to start a potential armed encounter. It's like getting the ball with bad field position and then telling the defense what play you are running.

My home defense plan is to post up in a hallway with a firearm and a flashlight and wait for intruder to come to me. They have about 1/4 of a second when 999 lumens of white light hits them in the face to empty their hands and make themselves as nonthreatening as possible before they have holes blasted through their chest. I will not search my house by myself if it can be avoided.

But all defensive firearms are kept loaded with a round in the chamber and on 'safe.' (Condition 1)

When people hear an unexpected noise in their home, most will investigate to be sure its not an animal, or a person who is lost, a child, etc. It could be a bg, but you don't know that either unless you see them coming in from outside. If you live entirely alone, this may be different of course. And if you just wanna camp until they leave or come to you, sure.

In any case, you really don't want the bad guy to come to you; you want them to go away.

Now if assasins are after you, that's a different story

 

[Varminterror]

I keep a pistol on my nightstand, and always will. A long gun beside the bed is non-productive in a scenario when the home defender wakes up to someone IN the bedroom already. So I'll always have a loaded pistol or revolver with no manual safety on my nightstand.

Secondarily, I've gone back and forth on what and where I keep my long gun, and in what condition it is stored - which can vary by where I have lived. When I lived in town, a handgun was sufficient, but I frequently backed it up with a shotgun. In the country, ranges might get longer, so I keep an AR at hand. I go back and forth between keeping it chambered, but ONLY because I'd have my "rock and roll ready" pistol in hand by the time I set foot on the floor, then access my long gun.

If there were no other considerations for kids, I'd keep my long gun rock and roll ready at all times.

 

[bnolsen]

If the hearing protection act passes I might consider something like an AR pistol or a keltec plr16 with a can for Home def. I do like my hearing, whatever is left of it, that is...

For now i have a drawer safe next to my bed with a pistol + mag, one of those pistol drop safes in my closet, and a mossberg 500 stowed way up high in the closet.

Used to be that I didn't keep a round chambered in any of these. Since I'm now rotating the pistols into my conceal carry routine and they both have manual safeties I keep the safe pistols chambered. I also have a glock down in the safe but i personally would never keep that one chambered, I just don't feel comfortable doing that.

 

[Sunray]

AR pattern rifles (or any rifle) have far too much penetration and lethal range, regardless of how they're stored. That's the issue. Not how much noise is made. The noise you make getting out of bed alone can act as a deterrent.