AR15 vs. 12 gauge shotgun for home defense

[Deer Hunter]

I'm sure this has been stated before, but is cost a factor? The cheapest AR-15s are built guns and go for around $550. The cheapest 12 gauge shotgun I've seen is a mossburg 500 for $145. No matter how much you try to rationalize it, many people who are thinking about buying a firearm for home defense tend to first make their choices based on how much each firearm costs.

 

[Blacklabman]

Large house (6 bedrooms) in urban/suburban area.

I live in much the same. But in a very rural setting.
I prefer a M4 with Black Hills 68gr HP's, backed by a P220.
The 12ga is left for the geese.

 

[s&w 24]

223 loaded properly penitrates less than pistol or shotgun ammo according to both FBI tests and US border patrol tests. If over penitration is the issue fedral 40 gr hp ammo is the cure.

Now that I live in an apartment I may suck it up and get a itty bitty 223. All the testing I have seen has said that you can put more hits on target quicker with a 223 VS 12 ga and bucksot is not comparible to 223 expanding ammo. Buckshot is a round ball of lead, a 223 vermin bullet turns into multiple projectiles on fluid contact.

 

[GRIZ22]

Shotgun or AR?

I'd say shotgun loaded with #2 or BB to minimize penetration inside. You may want to have the first 2 rounds #2 or BB followed by #4 Buck. At the ranges you'd be shooting just about any size shot would do the job. The spread of shot with no choke is about an inch a yard so inside the house you still have to aim. I wouldn't be concerned with the typical criminal wearing body and if need be I'd follow up with a second shot to an unarmored part of the body.

Rural or urban I would go with the shotgun as range would not be an issue. If the guy is running away you'd better be ready to explain why you shot him 100 yards from your house.

 

[Nickodemus]

Without a doubt a shotgun at close range has more energy then the .223 from an AR. If I had to defend myself against 1 or 2 intruders I would use the shotgun with 00 Buck and slugs if necessary. If I was defending myself against multiple intruders then I would go with the AR since that would be better suited for a sustained gun fight.

Both offer the home defense advantage in that if you use the right ammo they will not overpenetrate and kill your neighboors, hopefully.

Personally, for home defense I decided to train with a good full size pistol that is always close, and if it really hit the fan to put me in a more offensive stance, I could grab one of two battle rifles shooting .30 ammo.

I might start a fight saying this, but an AK has more close range stopping power then an AR, do to the size of the projectile. This turns in favor of the AR when your target is couple hundred yards away though, because then the higher velocity of the AR projectile compensates.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Which is superior for home defense? If the AR can do the shotgun's job, I'll just sell it and use that money towards my next purchase - a Colt 1911

I guess you should sell the shotgun, then. My view is that since bad guys can purchase soft body armor like anyone else, the shotgun is not the best bet for home defense. I use either an AK 47 with steel core 7.62 or an M4 with steel core 5.56. Both are always loaded and within reach. I also have a .45 with me at all times, but if the rifle is within reach, that's my pick for home defense. Just be careful about shot placement. Those rounds can penetrate a couple of houses if you miss the COM. If that's an over riding concern of yours, go with the shotgun. There is specialty shotgun ammo that will penetrate a vest easy, if that's the way you want to go. It is essentially a normal shotgun round, but instead of lead balls it contains steel nails facing forward. The payload is surrounded by plastic to protect the bore. The plastic seperates on exit from the barrel.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Assualt rifle rounds by definition will likely over-penetrate a human target.

I guess the military should switch to shotguns with No. 4 shot then. Most modern day military operations don't happen in a vast open plane, but house to house, amongst civilians, mothers and children.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

An AR-15 carbine is much shorter than a non-NFA shotgun

Not necessarily.

 

[Shifty]

who doesnt have a shotgun?? i mean seriously, thats almost un-american.

they are so cheap, so useful, and so much fun that it just doesnt make sense not to own one. or two, or ten.

 

[ec-10]

Some empirical data on what a level IIIA vest will stop can be found here. Due to the fact that I live in an apartment and have at a minimum eight souls separated from myself by four sheets of drywall my preferred defense weapon is the shotgun. Although during my waking hours I would go to my glock 17 for more accurate shot placement.

Thankfully to this date I have only had to go to the ready once in the apartment. I had come into the living room to investigate a disturbance in the courtyard in back at about 01:30. I heard the door to the main hallway open with force and heard what sounded like someone dry-firing a revolver in the hall. I took up a defensive position (such as it was) and trained the G17 on my front door. I heard the individual leave. I waited at the ready for a few minutes and went back to bed. I didn't get much sleep that night.

Before anyone asks, I did not call the police. The last time I called them (neighbor was bouncing his GF off the walls) they came out and found no evidence of a disturbance (neighbor's GF had left, he bluffed the police). They did not seem happy with me as though I was lying. I have conceded that I will not call them again unless there is something major happening.

 

[Bigfoot]

I might start a fight saying this, but an AK has more close range stopping power then an AR, do to the size of the projectile. This turns in favor of the AR when your target is couple hundred yards away though, because then the higher velocity of the AR projectile compensates.

No fight here, especially since it's off topic, but what gives a cartridge stopping power is how much damage the bullet does to the body not the bullets diameter. The fragmenting 5.56 wins at close range. A center of mass double tap with a laser sighted 5.56 will shut down any BG real fast.

Individual shotgun pellets cause almost as much damage as a handgun bullet but the body absorbing so many at the same time shocks it and tends to shut it down. Plus it increases the chance of hitting something vital. And yes because the close range pattern is small you have to aim it also.

Pick whatever you're more comfortable shooting well in stressfull situations. I prefer the carbine because meth freak home invaders like guns too and I want a full high cap mag in my gun. But the shottie sits right next to it, loaded with #1.

 

[dispatch55126]

Don't know if it was ever mentioned as I'm not going to read through 7 pages, but having two babies in the house I'm also concerned about bachground. A 12 guage would probably go through less sheetrock than a 5.56 FMJ. In either case I would think frangibles would be the way to go.

 

[crunker]

.223 fired in a house, unsuppressed, may well make you lose your hearing. 12ga. is a bit better from what I understand.

Also, .223 rounds are more prone to overpenetrating your target, and in the case of home defense the backstop might be you 6 year old sleeping in his bedroom.

 

[Dmack_901]

.223 fired in a house, unsuppressed, may well make you lose your hearing. 12ga. is a bit better from what I understand.

I know this is supported by those here to have had AD/NDs in the house. However I heard adrelinine heavily dampens hearing ability, and I wonder if an ar-15 would still be deafening under a real-life situation.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Just a small point, but it's not that your nerve endings are shutting down in your ears when you're in that 'fight or flight' situation. It's only your mind's focus moving to different things. Your hearing is still able to be harmed by the percussion waves of a gunshot, that's a physical property. It's just that your mind isn't 'hearing' that much because it's not giving as much energy to the process.

Selecting a longarm as an indoor defensive weapon seems like a good excuse to get a suppressor.

 

[clange]

Most modern day military operations don't happen in a vast open plane, but house to house, amongst civilians, mothers and children.

And if a round goes into a house and kills some kid..oh well, tough ****. If it happens to me in the US my life is ruined.

I agree with you, because .223 does not penetrate more than buckshot or 9mm, but the military example is pretty bad.

 

[Chilean]

12 gauge shotgun...we can't have ARs here in Chile

 

[High Planes Drifter]

quote:

Its dark and your heart is pounding, do you want to have to worry about "aiming" your ar, or just pointing your shotgun.
---------------------------------

How big is you're house? At 12 to 15 feet (average room size) Im pretty sure you're going to have to aim whatever it is you're holding. 00 isnt going to spread much, if at all, in 15' whether its out of a full choke or modified brl. Also, its easier to manipulate an AR carbine than a shottie when cornering.

In any case, there is no right or wrong answer here. The knight is more important than the sword with which he fights . Use what you're comfortable with, and train.

 

[MrAcheson]

And if a round goes into a house and kills some kid..oh well, tough ****. If it happens to me in the US my life is ruined.

I agree with you, because .223 does not penetrate more than buckshot or 9mm, but the military example is pretty bad.

Have you studied much MOUT operations? It isn't "oh well" if the guy in the next room that gets shot is in your unit, which is a likely scenario in house clearing.

 

[JShirley]

Here is a test of shots into drywall. Everything- pistol, rifle, shotgun rounds- everything penetrated all 4 drywalls, except for #8 birdshot, which had such shallow penetration, it was deemed useless for SD.

The thing is, the rifle rounds, even when they broke apart, didn't have much spread.

It would really be a shame if someone used a shotgun with the intent to reduce liability, and increased potential harm to innocents in the vicinity, because- look at the pictures- if you miss, the buckshot will tend to go everywhere, if it doesn't hit something hard enough to stop it.

John

 

[Manedwolf]

Possibly mentioned before, but also keep in mind that whatever weapon you shoot an intruder with will be held up in civil court by their deadbeat family's lawyer.

If it's an iconic "eeeevil black rifle", you'll be taken to the cleaners. After all it must have been UNNECESSARY to kill the poor "he was a Good Boy" if you were able to use an "Assault Weapon", right?

 

[clange]

Have you studied much MOUT operations? It isn't "oh well" if the guy in the next room that gets shot is in your unit, which is a likely scenario in house clearing.

He said urban setting 'amongst civilians, mothers, children', which is what I commented on.

 

[.45 AUTO]

The Shotgun was created as an effective, close range, versatile firearm. the inside of a house is close range, unless you have hallways in your home the length of a Football Field, I would certainly use the shotgun. Bigger bore, reliability, simplicity, a lot of margin for error, certain 100% knockdown power. For the AR-15 to do what a 12 Gauge shotgun can do at close range it would take about 1/3 of that clip to equal in firepower.

 

[Grayrider]

JShirley beat me to what I was going to point out on penetration. I also find it disturbing that many posters plan to point and shoot at the intruder without aiming. I NEVER shoot at anything without aiming. In MY house, with MY wife, and MY kids around I won't turn loose ANY round of ANY caliber without being absolutely sure what I am aiming at.

I do not use a shotgun for home defense as I cannot be certain where all of the projectiles will end up, and they certainly will penetrate sheet rock. Anyone who says the noise level is much different between the two guns is ignoring the fact that both are way too loud to be fired without hearing protection inside and hope to hear anything for a while afterwards. If you have fired a weapon indoors without hearing protection you know this.

Personally I use a handgun inside as it goes around corners better and can be kept close to me as I work around doorways, etc. I use a 45 caliber Glock 21. I have kept an AR available before for various reasons in preference to a shotgun as it is shorter with the stock partially collapsed, and I can aim each shot. However, I do not routinely. Lately I have been considering setting up my PS90 for this purpose as it is even handier in close spaces. I like the idea of a carbine over a handgun because I can aim it more precisely in a hurry. Again, I have family out there in the dark and I need to know exactly where my shots will go. It is also possible the Mrs. might need to use it, and she sure cannot effectively use a shotgun. In fact I have not met many men who can without quite a bit of training.

John

 

[JShirley]

The Shotgun was created as an effective, close range, versatile firearm

Rubbish. The shotgun- fowling piece or trade gun, originally- was an inexpensive firearm that could be used with a solid slug or shot. It was more affordable and versatile than rifled pieces. The main positive attribute of the shotgun for defense today is its low cost.

If the shotgun was as good as you'd like to believe, 1/3 of our infantry soldiers would be armed with them. Instead, squad leaders in SOME units are armed with them, and they're most often ONLY used for special circumstances, like breaching doors.

As respectfully as I can say, this:

certain 100% knockdown power

just means that you're inexperienced. There is NO shoulder-fired traditional firearm that has "certain 100% knockdown power".

A Buckhammer 1 1/4 oz slug traveling 1550 fps has 2935 ft-lbs of energy.
A 62-grain HPM at 3025 fps has 1260 ft-lbs of energy.

I think you meant to say "what a single round of 12 GA can do"; otherwise, you're only talking about a few rounds difference. And, of course, you're wrong, partially because of the different wounding mechanisms. Round balls are just not as effective as pointed rounds, especially if the pointed rounds expand and/or fragment. Against a human foe, I'd take a carbine with expanding rounds over a 12 GA ANY day.

John