AR15 vs. 12 gauge shotgun for home defense
- Thread starter Alex45ACP
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Why not keep both?
Inside the house, or anything inside 20 yards for that matter, you will 'own' the bad guy(s) with the scatter-gun. It's the right tool for the job under just about any conditions. However, if there is ever a real NOLA/SHTF situation in your area, you may want the AR to cover the outside of your property a little more efficiently at longer ranges. I don't know how far the longest shot you might possibly have to take would be under extreme conditions, but if the possibility exists, better to have the right tool for that job.
Inside the house, or anything inside 20 yards for that matter, you will 'own' the bad guy(s) with the scatter-gun. It's the right tool for the job under just about any conditions. However, if there is ever a real NOLA/SHTF situation in your area, you may want the AR to cover the outside of your property a little more efficiently at longer ranges. I don't know how far the longest shot you might possibly have to take would be under extreme conditions, but if the possibility exists, better to have the right tool for that job.
'Card
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mljdeckard said:
My wife is a redhead, so naturally I live with the fear that my S&W .500Mag may be inadequate.ArmedBear said:
In all honesty, if it's that time of the month, I'll probably need grenades.
Another aspect of the 12g vs AR debate is in the event you do have to shoot a bad guy. It maybe more PC to have used a shotgun vs an 'evil' assult rifle. The press and the DA's office might play up the assult rifle angle. Then again I am in the People's Republic of NY!
one thing that no one mentioned is follow up shots.
At in-house distances I can rip off 5-10 somewhat well placed shots from my CAR15 in the time that it would take the average person to fire 2 shots from a pump action shotgun. Now, I don’t know if I could do that half asleep at 4 o’clock in the morning. There is an article on June issue of Combat Arms about the misconception surrounding the shotgun in combat and home defense. The author talks about how people blindly believe in the “just point” technique that is thrown around gun shops, hunting camps, and the local watering hole. I personally use my CAR15 for HD and do not feel as though I am giving up anything. But that being said, I’m a rifleman, and my main experience with a shottie is busting clays.
At in-house distances I can rip off 5-10 somewhat well placed shots from my CAR15 in the time that it would take the average person to fire 2 shots from a pump action shotgun. Now, I don’t know if I could do that half asleep at 4 o’clock in the morning. There is an article on June issue of Combat Arms about the misconception surrounding the shotgun in combat and home defense. The author talks about how people blindly believe in the “just point” technique that is thrown around gun shops, hunting camps, and the local watering hole. I personally use my CAR15 for HD and do not feel as though I am giving up anything. But that being said, I’m a rifleman, and my main experience with a shottie is busting clays.
There's no "just" about pointing. It's a hard-learned skill, and it doesn't mean "point in the general direction." It's a technique used for acquiring and hitting targets, often moving targets, quickly. It involves your whole body, and focusing on the target rather than the sights. Aiming is far easier, just a lot slower.
Those who practice the skill of pointing can hit things quickly and accurately. Those who pooh-pooh the notion of pointing don't even know what it means.
It sure doesn't take me as long to pump a shotgun once as to shoot 10 well-placed rounds from a semiauto. And the two shots from the shotgun will go where I want them to, so that 18 00 pellets hit the target in two devastating volleys.
Does that mean I wouldn't use a .223 for self-defense? No. I can point my .223 carbine, too. But I can point my shotgun better, though, because I have more practice, the geometry is better, and I don't need much if any light to confirm where it's pointed.
Freddy...
Somehow i don't think you'll have to worry about being half-asleep if it comes down to it, the adrenaline rush will probably have you wired
to the max, 'yaknow?
If that's the case, and your hands are shaking a little from it, I don't think it's a stretch to say that most of us would not be exibiting our best imitation of Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett shooting skills right about then. Would you still rather have the 5-10 individual projectiles, shot hastily and only marginally aimed, or maybe up to thirty-two .30 cal. projectiles from the 'two shots' of 16 pellet-count #1 buck expanding 1" every 3 feet?
Just food for thought here, there's no one weapon that will be right for everyone in every circumstance.
Somehow i don't think you'll have to worry about being half-asleep if it comes down to it, the adrenaline rush will probably have you wired
to the max, 'yaknow? If that's the case, and your hands are shaking a little from it, I don't think it's a stretch to say that most of us would not be exibiting our best imitation of Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett shooting skills right about then. Would you still rather have the 5-10 individual projectiles, shot hastily and only marginally aimed, or maybe up to thirty-two .30 cal. projectiles from the 'two shots' of 16 pellet-count #1 buck expanding 1" every 3 feet?
Just food for thought here, there's no one weapon that will be right for everyone in every circumstance.
lawson
Member
busting clays is pretty good experience in quick shots from a pump gun, as well as bird hunting. when you can down three quail in rapid succession, you've pretty much got the concept of rapid target acquisition and neutralization.
a few weeks back, some buddies and i set up a home defense shotgun course on a buddy's private "range". the shooter started the course laying on a cot, and at start time, had to retrieve their gun of choice, and hit three one-gallon water jugs at various distances.
a few weeks back, some buddies and i set up a home defense shotgun course on a buddy's private "range". the shooter started the course laying on a cot, and at start time, had to retrieve their gun of choice, and hit three one-gallon water jugs at various distances.
Here I go again- defending the evil little black rifle
When I said, “just point”, I was not talking about those of you who practice regularly with you scatter guns. I was speaking of those who don’t shoot or rarely fire a gun. You know the type, the guys who play too many video games, of seen one too many zombie movies and think that the shotgun is a magic wand that you point in the general direction of a BG and the pellets will just their to him.
Mech, before I jot my CAR, my HD gun (well, my only gun) was a Win 94. I think that lever guns are great for HD. They are light, accurate, fast handling, and you can reload in between shots.
I’ve never fired a shotgun in a house, but 1” every 3 ft I think that more than a few of those 16 pellets are going to go into the walls of a 3 foot wide hallway. Which brings me to another point. I personally feel that my CAR15 would be easier to return fire from behind cover with, and that the .223 would be able to defeat cover better than all but the stoutest buckshot loads or slugs.
When I said, “just point”, I was not talking about those of you who practice regularly with you scatter guns. I was speaking of those who don’t shoot or rarely fire a gun. You know the type, the guys who play too many video games, of seen one too many zombie movies and think that the shotgun is a magic wand that you point in the general direction of a BG and the pellets will just their to him.
Mech, before I jot my CAR, my HD gun (well, my only gun) was a Win 94. I think that lever guns are great for HD. They are light, accurate, fast handling, and you can reload in between shots.
That 2 inch difference in sights and bore makes a difference at short range on an AR... you see a LOT of torn up barriers from this.
A shotgun with a bead front sight and a spare rifle sight barrel for hunting is far more flexible than an AR. A short 18-21 inch 'deer' barrel wth sights can still throw buckshot (I do it all the time).
Trading away the shotgun will net you a couple hundred bucks? Just save up for the 1911. Keep the shotgun handy.
A shotgun with a bead front sight and a spare rifle sight barrel for hunting is far more flexible than an AR. A short 18-21 inch 'deer' barrel wth sights can still throw buckshot (I do it all the time).
Trading away the shotgun will net you a couple hundred bucks? Just save up for the 1911. Keep the shotgun handy.
Personally I'd take the AR but that's just me.
More convenient light mounting, and I know that if someone grabs a family member hostage style, I'm not going to take out a chunk of their shoulder when I attempt the headshot on the badguy, g-d forbid.
More convenient light mounting, and I know that if someone grabs a family member hostage style, I'm not going to take out a chunk of their shoulder when I attempt the headshot on the badguy, g-d forbid.
You missed Dr.Rob's point. You probably WOULD take out a chunk of their shoulder, instead of hitting the bad guy. The bad guy would then shoot you, and the hostage. I have an acquaintance who took out a chunk of the furniture, shooting varmints in the chicken coop from inside his living room -- that was funny, not deadly. That difference between the sights and the barrel can be the difference between life and death.
True enough, a shotgun isn't a good weapon for a hostage situation. Neither is an AR. A lever gun with low sights would be a LOT better.
WRT shots on target, consider this:
Set up two sets of two humanoid targets, 4 feet apart, at 5-7 yards range. The object is to see how many holes you can make in each one, in the time it takes to shoot twice with a pump shotgun. To make it realistic, you must hit BOTH assailants (essentially, the shotgunner has to shoot one round at each target; the AR shooter can choose whatever sequence will get shots on target).
One of us gets an 18" 870 with two rounds of 9-pellet 00 Buck. The other gets an AR. Both shooters are familiar with the guns. Both guns are clean and oiled. Both guns are on Safe. To make it more interesting, you could say no round chambered, but that would give the shotgun too much of an advantage.
A referee calls 1, 2, 3, GO! and both of us raise our guns and fire. The ref calls STOP! after the second round from the shotgun is fired, and the AR guy has to stop firing. Which target will have more holes near center mass?
Would you bet $100 on the AR?
Freddy:
Man, your hallway must be as long as one of the runways up @ JFK airport!
I hear what you're saying, but c'mon now, if your hallway is 20-25 feet long then the spread will be in the neighborhood of 7-8".
Put in another light, think of a group of pistol or rifle shots at a distance of X.
While i am much better with a rifle at 100 yards than i am with a pistol at 10, even i can manage to keep an entire 15-shot magazine grouping from my beretta 92 or BHP inside 7-8" at 25 feet.
Point being, just a single shot from the 16-pellet 12 Ga. round i mentioned earlier would be like throwing a whole 8" wide group at the bad guy @ the other end of the hall, with one shot! I probably wouldn't need the second one.
I would really like to have your AR for covering the 40 yards or so from my back porch to the tree line behind my house though!
Man, your hallway must be as long as one of the runways up @ JFK airport!
I hear what you're saying, but c'mon now, if your hallway is 20-25 feet long then the spread will be in the neighborhood of 7-8". Put in another light, think of a group of pistol or rifle shots at a distance of X.
While i am much better with a rifle at 100 yards than i am with a pistol at 10, even i can manage to keep an entire 15-shot magazine grouping from my beretta 92 or BHP inside 7-8" at 25 feet.
Point being, just a single shot from the 16-pellet 12 Ga. round i mentioned earlier would be like throwing a whole 8" wide group at the bad guy @ the other end of the hall, with one shot! I probably wouldn't need the second one.
I would really like to have your AR for covering the 40 yards or so from my back porch to the tree line behind my house though!
DMK
Member
Plusses for the 12 gauge:
Negatives for the AR:
Both need practice. Both can be fumbled under stress. A miss with either can be very bad. Both can over penetrate.
Either can be very effective in the right circumstances with practice and skill.
- 12 gauge birdshot makes a devistating wound at close range and 5.56 can't compare.
- 12 gauge buckshot makes a devistating wound at longer ranges and 5.56 can't compare.
- A pump shotgun is uber reliable.
- You can short shuck it under stress. You need to practice with it.
- Shotguns require longer barrels under the NFA so may be more difficult to handle in tight quarters.
- You do have to aim with a shotgun, contrary to popular belief. (not really a negative, but worth stating).
- A wide pattern with buckshot will send pellets past the target and may cause great collateral damage to persons and property. You need to pattern your shotgun with your desired ammo.
- Your pattern gets wider at longer ranges.
- Not the best choice for recoil sensitive shooters, although low recoil ammo helps.
- Lightweight.
- Shorter and easier to handle in tight quarters.
- Low recoil.
- More accurate and less chance of missing the target at longer ranges (+75 yards). You need to practice with it.
Negatives for the AR:
- Since it's semi-automatic, jams are more likely.
- The round does not produce as devistating damage as a 12 gauge with buckshot or birdshot at close range.
Both need practice. Both can be fumbled under stress. A miss with either can be very bad. Both can over penetrate.
Either can be very effective in the right circumstances with practice and skill.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
I've got both, but I use the Remington 12 gague 870 Marine Magnum
for home D'~!
for home D'~!
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
With either gun, YOU MUST AIM. The shotgun gives you more room for error and more room to kill bystanders and punch through walls you didn't intend to shoot. You don't own anybody of you don't aim.
I have never awakened pumped full of adrenaline. While potentially startled, the adrenaline never pumps until there is some sort of follow-up or confirmational event of a problem within the house.
What makes you think they will be coming up the stairs? Dumb burglars will, but not smart ones. Smart ones will realize that the chances of the windows being alarmed on the second floor, or locked, are much less than on the first floor. Your intruder may be starting on the same floor as you.
U.S.SFC_RET
Member
I agree with Doublenaughtspy on this one the public perception is a shotgun is a scattergun but in reality inside a house it's not. You are not scattering any kind of a shot spread in relatively close quarters likened to shooting in a room, hallway or in the home stairway. If you don't want to aim a shotgun might I suggest that you may get a laser sight so you can point very reliably. 00 buck will go through the BG and the wall behind him and very possibly into a family mamber.
Chris Rhines
Member
I'd rather have the AR. Easier to shoot, easier to hit with.
- Chris
- Chris
beerslurpy
member
If the cops confiscate my HD gun after a shooting I would rather it be a crappy 200 dollar mossberg than my 1000 dollar AR. I would use my saiga12 for HD, but out of concern for the legal situation after the shooting, I use my 40 S&W pistol due to the fact that I could stand to risk parting with it for a while.
I have recently thought about getting a cheapie AK or shottie for HD. Would hate to part with my tromix saiga-12 or arsenal AK.
If law and order ever breaks down I would break out the EBR without hesitation.
I have recently thought about getting a cheapie AK or shottie for HD. Would hate to part with my tromix saiga-12 or arsenal AK.
If law and order ever breaks down I would break out the EBR without hesitation.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I would go with whatever weapon you are better trained with. Good arguments can be made for either; but the key to successful use is training, not equipment.
I see a few popular myths though:
1) Shotguns don't require aiming
A rough rule of thumb is that the pattern will spread about 1" for every yard of distance. So, you'll need to aim a shotgun.
2) ARs overpenetrate and shotguns do not.
It all depends on the ammo. Regardless of whether you choose an AR or a shotgun, you will have the same problem - loads that break up quick may not penetrate deeply enough to stop the attack. Loads that penetrate deeply enough to stop the attack may not break up quickly in walls if they miss.
Either long gun is a big advantage over a pistol...
I see a few popular myths though:
1) Shotguns don't require aiming
A rough rule of thumb is that the pattern will spread about 1" for every yard of distance. So, you'll need to aim a shotgun.
2) ARs overpenetrate and shotguns do not.
It all depends on the ammo. Regardless of whether you choose an AR or a shotgun, you will have the same problem - loads that break up quick may not penetrate deeply enough to stop the attack. Loads that penetrate deeply enough to stop the attack may not break up quickly in walls if they miss.
Either long gun is a big advantage over a pistol...
Gary G23
Member
I'll stick with the AR. Use whatever you're most comfortable with.
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