AR15 vs. 12 gauge shotgun for home defense

[dmckean44]

Firing an AR or any high powered rifle inside your house in a urban/suburban area is just plain stupid. I'd go for a the shotgun loaded alternating 00 buck and slugs. If I had to choose a rifle it'd probably be something pistol caliber that won't go through walls and straight into your neighbors while they're sleeping.

 

[blackhawk2000]

I'd rather use the AR.

It's shorter. It holds more ammo. It's quick to reload. 5.56 is a devastating round. Especially at close ranges. You could probably put 4-5 rounds of 5.56 center mass, in the amount of time it takes to do 2 with the shotgun. Even the crappiest vest will stop .12 gauge. You fire anything off inside, and your ears will pay for it. And dropping the bolt on an AR, is every bit as intimidating as pumping a shotgun. And shotguns are not guided missiles. They need to be aimed. The spread on any # shot at 7 yds, with any choke is going to be minimal.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

Both will do the job if you will...

I prefer the AR, but I don't own a shotgun(yet). Both have to be aimed at HD ranges. Both could over penetrate. The shotgun is more of a liablility in my mind at these ranges, as it will be a,"ball of lead", as opposed to a single projectile to be accounted for. Drywall or sheetrock will not stop either round very well if you miss the intended target(depending on the load used). Both will do the job if you do. I really don't care, I have a brick exterior, and plan to do MY DAMNDEST NOT TO MISS ! (again it seems) Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Firing an AR or any high powered rifle inside your house in a urban/suburban area is just plain stupid.

Actually, an AR15 is less likely to be lethal than pistol calibers or buckshot after penetrating an interior wall when loaded with the correct ammo. Even with military FMJ ammo it often penetrates less than either pistol ammo or buckshot due to its tendency to fragment on interior walls from yawing at high velocity.

I'd go for a the shotgun loaded alternating 00 buck and slugs. If I had to choose a rifle it'd probably be something pistol caliber that won't go through walls and straight into your neighbors while they're sleeping.

If you are worried about penetrating multiple walls, shotgun slugs are probably not going to help you solve that problem.

 

[dfaugh]

Shotgun all the way. THE most versitile firearm. Depending on your situation you can load heavy birdshot (which WILL make a mess of the BG at shot range) buck or slugs. Or a mix. This is my FIRST choice for HD...If I need more firepower (in case there's a platoon invading!) it'll give me a chance to get keep the bad guys busy while I get to my hi-cap rifle.

 

[1911 guy]

So not having an opinion is O.K.?

Actually, GJJ, this discussion is more like someone discussing the topic after reading several text books on human anatomy and reproduction. This is balistics, weapon handling and wound statistics being discussed. Hang around and learn something. There is also a great amount of military, law enforcement and bad luck experience on this board. To say that "Nobody here..." is both innacurate and wishfull thinking.

Now for my take on the debate. I prefer a shotgun, but have an AR locked and unloaded. The shotgun pattern is enough at in house distances if placed on target, while the 5.56 doesn't produce maximum wound eficiency inside 50 yards. It'll work, for sure, but it's not optimal. As far as overpenetration, handgun bullets have a greater danger of overpenetration of drywall and studs than a high velocity, light for caliber, thinly jacketed bullet from an AR. That's not to say it's not a danger, we all know it is. But don't think your pistol caliber is going to be harmless on the other side of the wall.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

GJJ,

Making ANY correlation between shooting a person, and sex kinda bothers me for some reason... Besides, shooting the B/G and coming out of a near death experience still alive, is probably better than sex (irony intended)....
Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[PaladinX13]

Well who knows until one knows right? That's basically his point.

On one hand we can have empirical data such as times innocents have been harmed by overpenetration (overblown fear or something that happens frequently in armed defenses?) or short-stroking (any documented cases of failures to defend due to this?) or statistically preferred size, frequency, and position... but ultimately your situation will be uniquely your situation when/if it happens.

 

[Mannlicher]

I am sticking with my Bushmaster XM15-E2S with EOTech. Despite the internet myth of 'shotgun invincibility', there are better platforms.

 

[444]

I think one of the big factors in this decison is which gun you are most comfortable with.

I own two shotguns equipped with Surefire dedicated foreend lights. I own a Surefire 900 series light for the ARs. I consider a dedicated weapon light on a long gun to be essential, but for me it is a wash: I have lights for both.

I have seen a number of people (up close and personal/hands on) that have been shot with shotguns as well as a number of people shot with medium bore rifles including AR15s. I have seen people shot with birdshot as well as buckshot (never saw anyone shot with a slug). I consider the wounding capabilities to be a wash: both provide horrific wounds at inside the house ranges. The rifle might be worse, but I wouldn't get hung up on it.

I have some experience with shotguns. I have hunted with a pump shotgun since childhood. I have shot a little trap and have shot 25 straight. I have taken Gunsite's shotgun class as well as Frontsight's shotgun class.

But, as someone else mentioned earlier, I consider myself a rifleman. I have FAR more trigger time with an AR. I have FAR more formal training with the carbine. I know I can manipulate my AR faster than a shotgun. I can put two rounds COM far faster than I can with a shotgun. I can take out multiple targets much faster with the AR.
Obviously, the answer for me would be the carbine. YMMV

As with most topics like this discussed on-line, people focus on the gun. They discuss the pros and cons of the mechanical hardware.
In reality, this isn't the issue at all.
You are the weapon, the shotgun/rifle is just a tool. Your training and your mindset are the issue, not what blaster you choose. Someone with good training and the right mindset will win the day. The person without either can have any weapon he wants and he will only get out alive due to luck.

 

[GunFixer]

Zombies

"If I was worried about a group of ninjas, the henchmen of some evil genius, or a horde of zombies, I'd probably go with the AR."

Ha ha ha....I'm with him.

I don't think that it matters what load you have in a shotgun at close range. If you are 5 feet from a home invader all the pellets are going to hit the individual. 3" 6 shot or 2 3/4" 00 buck will still put a damper on the individual's day at that range. I am always going to opt for a scatter gun in close quarter situations. Plus, you have LESS of a chance that "shot" will penetrate the walls and go into your childs room or other room in the house.

 

[chopinbloc]

mr. roberts linked to the box o' truth and frankly, alot of the folks posting in this thread really need to read it before blindly repeating stuff they've heard.

personally, i keep my rifle and handgun close at hand and my shotgun locked up. i don't do this because the shotgun is no good for home defense but because:
1. i have a light on my rifle and no light on my shotgun.
2. i, personally, feel more confident with a rifle.

decide what you prefer and then get out and train.

it was mentioned earlier that the sight offset of an ar-15 negates the advantage of precision shots. i disagree. if you train at close range you will know how much to elevate your sights to put the shot within a few short millimeters of where you want it. now whether there is any real likelihood of having to take a headshot because a crook is holding a family member hostage is another matter. that said, the tool that i am most comfortable with also happens to be extremely versatile and that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

 

[Zak Smith]

Here are some of my thoughts about shotguns, which I wrote in response to a different thread over on AR15.com--

1. loading, loading, loading. Loading a shotgun is excrutiatingly SLOW, even if you have a 3Gun-gamer style setup with a bandoleer (like I run) or the belt Choate holders (like many other 3Gunners use). The best 3Gunners can reload at a rate of barely faster than 1 shell per second, when they are loading 3-4 at a time. EVERY round you fire and need to reload incurs a 1-4 second penalty for reloading. And that's if you carry extra rounds in an easily accessible carrier. Most people don't.

2. Capacity. Related to "loading", shotguns have less capacity than most defensive pistols.

When you contrast the above two points to a handgun or carbine:

The shotgun incurs a 1-4 second loading penalty PER SHOT FIRED.
The AR-15 incurs a 1-2 second loading pently PER MAGAZINE, amortized over the magazine that comes out to 33-66 thousandths of a second per round.

3. The manual of arms is significantly different from a pistol or AR-15. Pistols and AR-15 have BASICALLY the same manual of arms-- safety on thumb, mag release, mag goes in hole, rack slide, etc. Shotguns are entirely different from our primarily weapons platform (rifle) and secondary/CCW (pistol). Even shotgun A vs shotgun B can be vastly different. Hand a Remington shooter a Benelli and see him fumble with the alien manual of arms.

There are some applications where a shotgun is a better choice, some I can think of off the top of my head:

1. shooting flying things like birds (you know, hunting), or repelling attacking vampire/were-bats

2. shooting slugs at large things that want to eat you. A battle rifle would be a better choice in this case anyway.


Another issue is training. A lot of people think that a pump shotgun is a "load and forget" home-defense weapon. This conclusion is fatally flawed because shotguns require TRAINING and you have to AIM them. The most common malfunctions I see 3Gun shooters fall victim to are shooter-induced, and I see MORE pump shotgunners short-stroke the action than I see semi-autos malfunction on their own.

An AR-15 carbine is much shorter than a non-NFA shotgun, which makes it more maneuverable indoors (ie, home defense). The LOP on most shotguns is too long for short-statured people.

Just MHO...

 

[B Easy]

Personally I'd go with the AR too but not because of penetration issues.

Anyone who thinks that 5.56 fragments on dry wall should read this. 5.56 does NOT magically fragment when it hits drywall. Please, stop saying this, it's going to get someone killed one day.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

 

[swingset]

AR is better, the end.

 

[dmckean44]

Actually, an AR15 is less likely to be lethal than pistol calibers or buckshot after penetrating an interior wall when loaded with the correct ammo. Even with military FMJ ammo it often penetrates less than either pistol ammo or buckshot due to its tendency to fragment on interior walls from yawing at high velocity.

I've had some fun in the desert with drywall panels and cement blocks and I haven't found this to be true. Even .30 carbine would go though 6 consecutive panels of drywall. I live in a rural area so I'm not worried but I would never give people advice to fire rifles inside their urban houses no matter what the situation. Especially to those that live in an apartment.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've had some fun in the desert with drywall panels and cement blocks and I haven't found this to be true. Even .30 carbine would go though 6 consecutive panels of drywall.

Take a look at the link I provided. There isn't much that won't go through six layers of drywall that you would want to use on 200lb mammals.

Having said that...

1. How did you determine what the lethality was after the round had penetrated drywall?

2. What types of ammunition did you use and in what calibers?

 

[beerslurpy]

Zak, they make EBR based shotguns now.



My main argument against even a shotgun without the reloading speed penalty is that one 8 or 10 rd mag of 12 ga buck is teh same size and weight as a 40 rd RPK magazine. I can engage far more targets with a rifle than with a shotgun. A select fire rifle combines the best of both worlds, but I cant afford one of those.

 

[Zak Smith]

Good point on the "EBR" shotguns. It will be interesting to see how these pan out. They are still at a length disadvantage to a 16" CAR-15, I think.

 

[sixth award expert]

New at this site,but spent 8 years in the Marine Corps. We used to make entries with shotguns and MP-5's, M-16s would be for cover. I'm was an instructor of the shotgun. I own both but keep my 870 ready for somthing bad to happen, my AR-15 is in my gun safe, I also sleep with a Para Ordinece
1445. Maybe I'm a little paranoid? The shotgun is a better choice in my humble opinion!

 

[Balddragn]

My common sence - what's left of it - says shotgun. Distain of the BGs and the teenager inside wants to whip out the AR and 30 rnds of 223 Glasers.

 

[cz75bdneos22]

i live in a 2 story house in a cul de sac. neighbors/families to my left, right, front and back...most homes, the upstairs is only sheetrock/hardiplank. bottm is sheetrock and a thin, brick veneer on the outside...as i see it, entry would be from first level rear, at large rear sliding door, or side-entry through a 6x8 doubl;e window. my PD weapon choice would be first, my bed-side handgun, followed by shotgun and i would not use my rifle. ymmv i say personal defense, because if someone were to break into my home, HD is a failure. now, it's PD and i don't feel a handgun is not enough to stop an attack. if it comes to that at all. i'm not looking for a reason to kill. YMMV.

 

[ArmedBear]

Okay, let's clarify something about "pointing" vs. "aiming."

If you aim a weapon at a person who is advancing towards you, you won't have time to shoot. Aiming is what you do when you have a faraway target and want a very precise shot. It's slow, and it diminishes your peripheral vision.

When you aim, your eye is focused on the front sight (or on the image through a scope). Many people use only one eye, and close the other. With most scopes, you are only using one eye, even if the other eye is open. Sights made for aiming tend to be very easy to line up with great precision, e.g. square-notch target sights on a pistol.

When you point, your eyes are focused on the target. You generally can and do use both eyes, and you're still aware of what's going on in the greater area around the target. The sights are used peripherally, so you can tell if your eye is lined up with the gun; you also use your whole upper body (with training) as an additional means of doing this. This can be done with a standard M16. Ghost rings are okay, as are buckhorn sights like on a lever gun. Sights made for pointing tend to be less precise, but quicker to line up.

The three sighting systems actually MADE for pointing are ribs, "scout scopes" and red dots. Ribs are most often seen on shotguns, but dangerous game rifles (Express or Guide) rifles have them, too, for the same reason: quick acquisition of a moving target at close range. A "scout mount" scope also allows shooting with both eyes open and focused at a distance, but makes it really easy to see what you're going to hit. A red dot is probably the most sophisticated "pointing" sight, since it allows you to focus on the target while the dot shows you where you'll hit. Some holographic red dots even make the dot appear to be on the target, thus making it even more comfortable for your eyes to focus at distance.

Pointing works best with guns that have good geometry, so that when you raise them while looking at the target, the gun will already be pointed at the target. Guns known for this are the 1911, the Colt 1851 Navy and 1873 Single Action Army, nearly all traditionally-stocked shotguns as long as they fit the shooter, African express rifles, and traditional lever guns. AR's point pretty well, too. Guns that people complain about most include Glocks, because the grip angle isn't natural for many people, so the gun is pointing down when they raise it natually -- though the geometry must work well for lots of others. The point is that overall gun design matters, and the way it fits the shooter matters. If you have to fiddle around to line up the sights, you're aiming, not pointing.

I just want to dispel the misunderstanding that people have about "pointing". It does not mean "guessing and pulling the trigger." It's a skill that must be practiced.

High-scoring clay, 3-gun, Cowboy Action, and other high-speed competitors learn, by practice, to point. They don't aim at close and/or moving targets and win any matches. They become one with the gun, as silly as that may sound.

Pointing is HARDER than aiming, not easier. It's also a helluva lot faster. It's no good at legitimate rifle distances, but we WERE talking about home defense, not warfare. Pointing is worth learning. And you don't know how to shoot defensively is you can't point your gun. You just don't, end of story. The last thing you need to worry about if you can't point your gun is how many rounds you can carry in it! If you aim, you'd better score a perfect hit the first time.

Now as far as the per-shot "penalty" of using a shotgun, again, it depends if you think the scenario will require more than 72 projectiles to handle. There's no penalty unless you HAVE to reload. Chances are, you'll need one, maybe two trigger pulls with a shotgun, if any. And you can "top off" a shotgun, so I think the "penalty" is overstated for home defense. It's something to consider in case of a riot, though.

Do not, however, think a shotgun spreads enough to allow sloppy shooting. The purpose of the 9 pellets of 00 is devastating one-shot stop power because the spread is not at all big at close range. The spread is definitely not enough that you will squarely hit something with a shotgun that you'd miss with a rifle. Either way, the barrel has to be pointing directly at the target, so you need to be skilled in getting it that way, fast.

 

[Zak Smith]

ArmedBear,

Good post. We have covered "point shooting" aiming vs. "sighted aiming" (vs. the continuum of aiming methods) in other threads, and we could probably do without debating P.S. vs. anything else in this thread.

-z

 

[ArmedBear]

I'm not meaning to debate, at all; I just think people really do misunderstand what the words mean. I hope that was clear.