Are factory crimp dies necessary for rimmed cartridges?

[stchman]

Hello all. I am getting into the reloading game for my "boutique" calibers. I am going to reload .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, and 10mm Auto.

I bought the Lee 4 die set for the 40S&W/10mm as the cartridge headspaces of the mouth while .44 Mag and .357 Mag headspace off the rim. For my .44 and .357, I purchased the 3 die sets.

I have got a lot of different opinions on whether the factory crimp die is necessary for rimmed revolver cartridges.

Thanks.

 

[mcb]

I have never used one and I have loaded a lot of 38 Short Colt, 38 Special, and 44 Mag along with a lot of 40S&W and 45 ACP for a revolver.

 

[RKRCPA]

I crimp in a separate step so I purchased crimp dies to make a four die set. One of those crimp dies happens to be a "Factory Crimp Die", the others are either "Profile Crimp" dies or just plain jane seating/crimp dies that I have taken the seating stem out of.

Is the "Factory Crimp Die" necessary, no. Is a separate crimp dies necessary, no but it's what I prefer.

 

[Blue68f100]

I don't use any of them. I was given one. Tested it against my std and it hurt accuracy, so it's just taking up space. Been reloading for 40+ years and still going. Never needed them. Learn to setup your dies correctly and you want need them to correct a problem..

 

[Bill M.]

I have the factory crimp die for .357 and .41. I do not use them. Nothing wrong with them either. More than one way works. I shoot a lot of coated bullets and use a taper crimp for them and a profile crimp for jacketed. To me the most important thing is to seat the bullet straight. I do seat separately and then crimp with separate dies. But..:it works if you do them together also.

 

[Shooterbob]

A factory crimp die isn’t a sin they do work . But I do not use them with cast bullets . I use the lee collet crimp with cast. The collet crimp die dose not resize the case on the way out.And apply a very nice crimp for magnum revolvers .So try one and see if you like them

 

[Mark_Mark]

Hello all. I am getting into the reloading game for my "boutique" calibers. I am going to reload .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, and 10mm Auto.

I bought the Lee 4 die set for the 40S&W/10mm as the cartridge headspaces of the mouth while .44 Mag and .357 Mag headspace off the rim. For my .44 and .357, I purchased the 3 die sets.

I have got a lot of different opinions on whether the factory crimp die is necessary for rimmed revolver cartridges.

Thanks.

you are going into dangerous territories.

You will get 2 answers

YES
&
NO

try both and decide what works best for you

 

[AJC1]

No they are not nessary. I would contend they are more useful in rimmed cartridges as a crimp is not nessary at all in an auto cartridge. I use one all the time in 35 caliber so I don't have to change my seating die. I seem to have a large ring in mine as it almost never makes contact when loading cast.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The Lee FCD isn't needed for any cartridge regardless if it is rimmed or not. It's usefulness is when your other dies aren't properly set and you don't want to set them properly.

Don't get me wrong, I have a FCD that I use for loading 9mm practice ammo...because the need for them to chamber is more important than their need to shoot as accurately as carefully loaded competition rounds.

If found that the FCD has a tendency to over size coated bullets, which affect their point of impact...especially when loading .45ACP

 

[cfullgraf]

Generally, the Lee factory crimp dies for handgun cartridges have a sizing ring at the bottom of the die as well as the appropriate crimp for the cartridge. Rimmed case dies generally have a roll crimp and semi-auto cartridges have a taper crimp.

The sizing ring in the die can reduce the bullet diameter depending on bullet diameter and case wall thickness which can affect accuracy.

I crimp handgun cartridges in a separate step from seating but I do not use the Lee factory crimp dies. I use crimp dies from other manufacturers.

Rimmed cartridges that have a cannelure in the bullet get a roll crimp. Where I use something like a plated bullet that does not have a cannelure, it gets a taper crimp. Semi-auto cartridges get a taper crimp.

I do have one Lee facory crimp die. With 38’Special wadcutters, I sometimes get a cartridge that will not chamber. It is a combination of bullet diameter and length as well as case wall thickness in the area of the base of the bullet.

When I run into a cartridge that will not chamber, I set it aside and run it through the Lee die when I get home. It then chambers. I save it for a future practice session where precision of the ammo is not critical.

I get maybe one to three cartridges per 500 that will not chamber.

Note, Lee factory crmp dies for rifle cartridges are a different animal.

Otherwise, I find the Lee factory crimp die useless.

 

[irishlad]

I have the Lee 4 die set in 380,9mm,45 acp and 45 colt. I use the FCD on all of them. Works great. People have strong opinions on pistol FCDs. It's always an amusing thread.

 

[bihj]

I may be going against the tide here but I've found that a "factory crimp die" isn't necessary in all but a few cases. Only necessary in a few specific cases involving a semi auto rifle.

Just adjust the seating die to crimp straight wall cases.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I use a factory crimp die on my rimless cartridges, 45 ACP and 9x19. Mostly because I don't trim my brass and the seater/crimp die is all over the board.

I don't use a FCD on my revolver cartridges. Seater/crimp die seems to work well enough. Might have something to do with the bullets and the cannelure or crimp groove, IDK.

 

[dcarr]

i used to crimp 38spl.,.357, .45auto and .45 long colt for revolver. Also .45 long colt for marlin lever action. Don't reload 38spl at all anymore and the others are now taper . Average one trip to the local indoor range every week and that means alot of shells over the last few years. It is true I try to load to the light side (minimize recoil to the old wrist) but no sign of set back . My 9mm has always been taper whether I shot it in the black hawk revolver or S&w mp 2.0 semi auto.

 

[illinoisburt]

Lee makes basically two different styles of Factory Crimp Die - a collect crimp for rifle cartridges, and a standard roll crimp with a carbide case sizing ring for handgun cartridges. They are very different from one another.

The collets have a set of jaws which are pushed inward to squeeze the case against the bullet. It can crimp any bullet regardless if there is a cannellure. Case lengths do not have to be consistent and there is no risk of mushrooming a bottleneck cartridge. If someone is intent upon crimping their rifle rounds it is likely the best choice.

The pistol and revolver FCD is not a collet design. It is exactly to same type of roll or taper crimp operation which can be done with the majority of bullet seating dies. Basically there is a step down in the die. As the brass is pushed further into the die it sizes down the body of the case. In the case of a taper its a smooth transition, the roll crimp is more abrupt causing the rim of the case mouth to catch and turn inward. It is very dependent upon consistent case length to get good results. For many chamberings they will also have an extra carbide sizing ring slightly larger than the crimping section which will squeeze down the entire length of the brass. This is basically a bulge-buster type of operation which helps ensure your finished rounds will feed in most any gun. This can be helpful for people who have out of spec brass from firing in in support chambers (ie the classic Glock bulge). The big downside to this step is any intentionally oversized bullets will get reduced in size as they pass through the ring, thereby no longer being oversized. This can create headaches for cast shooters who may need the oversized bullet for good accuracy and full barrel seal.

So what is the best choice? The 357 and 44 absolutely do need to be roll crimped to function properly. If you are loading cast, I would not use the FCD since it will underside your bullets. Properly set up, your seating die will crimp it just fine. Jacketed it's entirely your choice. The FCD will do the job fine as an extra pull the handle. It you are doing volume reloading on a single stage or turret it will add time and effort without changing the end results. On a progressive you likely won't appreciably notice.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Are factory crimp dies necessary for rimmed cartridges?
Absolutely not. They are not needed for loading any kind of cartridge. They are just a convenience for people that don't, can't get their dies to work correctly because not every die in the set is necessarily the right die for what they are doing with it. Will they work?, yeah but not always well for the different techniques that we all use.
That can make them hard to use for certain processes. Like RCBS neck sizing dies to me, just plain suck, crooked bullets. That's why I like M-dies.
My 9mm die set is an RCBS resizer, Lyman M-die, Redding Mic bullet seater, and Lyman Mic crimp die. With this set up I can make perfect 9mm loads every time on my LNL-AP and not have any fail in the Lyman case gage.
Are my micrometer dies necessary? No, they are a convenience for me to be able to adjust on the fly instead of taking them out and loosening nuts to make an adjustment.
Not everyone wants or needs to go to this extreme but I load a lot of 9mm and don't want any problems with any of it. People have been re-loading ammunition succesfully for more than a hundred years before the Lee FCD came along.

 

[irishlad]

With this set up I can make perfect 9mm loads every time on my LNL-AP and not have any fail in the Lyman case gage.

That is what I say about my Lee 4 die set on my LCT and Wilson case gauge.

They are just a convenience for people that don't, can't get their dies to work correctly because not every die in the set is necessarily the right die for what they are doing with it.

That's a pretty broad statement. I use them because they work well for me.

People have been re-loading ammunition succesfully for more than a hundred years before the Lee FCD came along.

That could be said about alot of reloading equipment.

Like I posted earlier, folks have strong opinions on FCDs. I always find these threads amusing(entertaining) . I'm glad your methods work well for you.

 

[.38 Special]

Lee's advertising for the thing (Overcome the Factory Advantage!) rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm still biased against it. The short version is that it does work, but - at least in my opinion - is primarily a solution in search of a problem.

The even shorter version is that no, it is not necessary. Standard crimping dies work perfectly for rimmed cartridges.

 

[irishlad]

The even shorter version is that no, it is not necessary. Standard crimping dies work perfectly for rimmed cartridges.

Very true!

 

[AJC1]

We have digressed to the point that it's not out of bounds to discuss why people are using them. If you are using the die to fix a problem or the die is causing a problem it's obviously not good. In my case it was the easiest way to add a standalone crimp die to my rcbs 3 die set. It means a lot less time setting my seating die. It's definitely a more reasonable choice than buying another full set of dies for 38. Obviously you can fix anything with enough money.

 

[illinoisburt]

Personally I don't use the FCD for my revolver loads (38, 357, 44, 45 colt) because shoot a mix of cast, plated, and jacketed and don't need the carbide resizing. Those are done with the seating die.

I do use a FCD for 45 ACP as I reload a mix of range brass where bulged cases so show up. Really irritating to have run a batch and find some loaded rounds that wont chamber.

I generally do not crimp target ammo for bolt rifles I know are going to be shot only at a range, but do use the collet style FCD for a plethora of rifle cartridges which are either being rapid fired in semi autos or going hunting where bullet setback or getting one stuck in the lands quickly ruins a trip. Btw - don't care how many people say it's not needed, neck tension, etc. Once you've had a rifle tied up with chamber and action full of powder on the side of a mountain you learn your lesson. There is a reason most factory ammo is crimped.

 

[BRatigan]

I use both, the Lee collet for 32 Win Spl and the carbide ring type for the 357 magnum. They work for what and how I shoot. Like everything in life, they are not for everybody.

 

[FROGO207]

I use the rifle type for 30-30, and 32 SPL so I don't have to trim the brass as often. For handgun I do not do it. The standard roll crimp works fine and my oversized lead bullets are not sized down. YMMV

 

[gwpercle]

I don't use the Lee FCD because I started reloading and bought most of my equiptment / dies pre the invention of the FCD ...but , used as a dedicated crimp die so you can use your seat/crimp as a dedicated seating die allows you to seat and crimp in two different steps .
It doesn't matter if the round is rimmed , semi-rimmed or rimless ...the Lee FCD will work just fine .

Is it needed ? Not really , I'm loading 50 years and never needed one ... but readjusting your seat/crimp die could become a pain .
Rimmed revoler rounds do most certainly need a good crimp ...you can seat them w/o crimping then crimp them with a Lee FCD , or ... use the seat/crimp die and seat-crimp in one step , not always the best way ... or do like I do ...use the seat/crimp die but adjust to seat w/o crimp ...then re-adjust die to crimp w/o seating ... what ever floats your boat ...
Gary

 

[mkl]

^^^^^ What he said.

I too am a 50 year reloader and prefer to seat and crimp in separate steps. Continually adjusting the seating stem to get it out of the way for a crimp and moving it back for a seat plus adjusting the die insertion itself for a crimp/no-crimp is just a pain. I load for 38 special, 357 mag, and 45 Colt. Never tried 9mm since I could buy the commercial reloads at a gun show cheaper than I could reload them ($89 per 1000 rounds as I recall). Still have a few 50 caliber ammo cans level full with those 9mm.