Arrogance at a local gun shop...

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All three of my local gun shops have crates of cheap(er) remington fmj target ammo. However, they keep the crates in the back and only put 2-3 boxes on the shelves. Why ? So they can say on the phone they have it in stock, then the people come in and buy the huge mark-up stuff when the 2-3 boxes are gone.

When you ask them if they have more .223 fmj in the back, always NO, WE WON'T HAVE ANY FOR 3 WEEKS. But you come back tomorrow, 2-3 boxes are back on the shelf. Always.
 
I think you are going to start finding increased "problems" with some dealers. Here is a cut from a email that I sent to a customer the other day. It gives my take on what is happening right now.
cut................................................................................................
It does not hurt to ask. The market has swung from being a buyers market for the last six years to being a sellers market like before Y2K.

It is not a sellers market because the dealers are wanting to make high profits. Ammo demand has exceeded supply since this summer. Actually it has been coming on for a couple of years. Additionally the manufacturers yearly price increase is almost triple that of last December.

Dealers have no motivation to negotiate down on their prices because it is going to cost a lot more to replace what they sale. Then there are the dumb asses like me who put off the price increase until they sale out of the old price ammo and start selling the more expensive stuff.

Some of my prices still have not changed from before the July manufactures increase because I had a lot in stock at the Spring price. I could not stock up ahead like I did before July. Winchester and Federal still have not shipped all of my Summer orders to me yet. A rep called Friday and asked if I still wanted what I had ordered in July.They will not honor the price that the ammo was when I ordered it. I have to buy it at the 2007 price or let another dealer have my order.
.......................................................................................................

The customer was wanting free shipping on a 500 round case of Ranger ammo. My cost for 2007 is almost 27.00 per 500 higher than he paid for this ammo.

I had no motivation to pay the shipping. I would have been better off not making the sale until I raised my prices. Even the thrifty customer knew that the price was not going down so he purchased the ammo.
 
My local dealer is a gem. Three longtime oudoorsmen and target guys, with about (I'd guess) seventy years of total experience collectively. Yeah, their prices aren't bottom-dollar, especially regarding ammo, but you'd never find a better place to go and hang out and talk hunting and shooting. Always a cup of joe ready for ya, and a great selection for a mom-and-pop place. Just made my eighth firearm purchase from these folks, so they must be doin' somethin' right. ;)
 
Don't want to hijack this thread to Portland, Oregon but:

As stated by others, "The Gun Room" stinks. Assistants are OK but the owner is a PITB. Nothing they have on display is any good if he can push something more expensive and never ask an opinion on something you already own. You will never know why your favorite piece, which you've used for twenty years, didn't blow up in your face two days after you bought it.

Very good - "Northwest Armory". "Shooters Service Center" in St Johns, especially if you are into Cowboy Action.

Excellent - "Powder Horn" and "H&K Gunshop" in Forest Grove. Smaller but interesting inventories, REAL NICE people.
 
I have two family members that work at a big shop. Sadly, how you are treated there depends to a large extent on whomever you end up getting to wait on you, theres anywhere from 3-6 salespeople in the store at any one time. Roll of the dice kind thing.
 
The internet has certainly started to put the squeeze on the corner gun shop. They are having a harder time exploiting the ignorance of the local yokels by gouging for all they are worth, however theres still a lot of ignorant idiots out there who frequent local gun shops and happily cough up a LOT more than they have to plus SALES TAX on top of it simply because they don't know any better or have some kind of kneejerk ignorant distrust of buying anything on the net. I guess some people are nostalgic for "mom and pop" retail or wanna help their gun shop owner buddies out because they know and trust them, but I honestly classify that more as charity than real capitalism. Trust has value, to be sure, but the general likelihood something will be wrong with any durable good purchase that will require a return or someone to handle a "problem" is so exceedingly small as to not be worth ANY premium, at least as I see it. Any so-called "expertise" and "experience" these gun shop owners might have is moot since about 15 minutes of free searching with google or on forums like THR can find just about any information you might want, and it likely won't be biased towards you spending more money than you have to in Bubba's store.

I intentionally avoid buying from dealers in my state, especially those with brick and mortar stores, since there is very often ZERO chance they will be able to beat a price I find on Gunbroker or some enthusiast board like FALfiles or THR given that they have to charge their fat markup plus sales tax. For example, I really like a lot of the stuff Military Gun Supply and Cheaper than Dirt are doing and I enjoy looking in their showrooms whenever Im in DFW, but the mere fact I have to cough up sales tax on anything I buy there means its just pointless to even consider buying something more than $100 or so, especially if I have to have it shipped to Austin with shipping ON TOP of sales tax. Before you start asking me where Im gonna get my guns transferred through if Bubba goes out of business, I don't need brick and mortar gun shop FFL services when I can get $10-$15 transfers from just about any licensed "kitchen table" FFL, pawnbroker, or gunsmith. I hate to see "mom and pop America" going the way of the dodo just as much as anyone else, but theres just no good sense in spending more money than I have to.
 
that post about " seller's " market is right on. Shortages on everything seems to be the coming thing. You can usually find what you want or an alternative on Midway. The prices do not constitute particular bargains and sometimes you are stuck with hazmat fees but the online store tells you if the items are actually in stock. Cruising the site shows that a lot of formerly available merchandise is no longer there- given support to the general impression of industry recession.

Formerly reluctant to deal with mail order and internet sales, I 've had perfectly good luck ordering from Midway.
 
I think the future for the Mom and Pop stores are numbered. They hang on now because they are also used as a social gathering place by many people. To some customers that makes it worth paying a little more than internet prices.

I also think that internet dealers days are also numbered. There is a lot of money exchanging both mail order and on the net. The Government does not think that they are getting their fair share of it. I look for some major changes in taxing or fees for out of state purchases in the not so far future.

I think the future is in large shops that offer classes, ranges, repairs,extensive product lines in guns, accessories and ammo. The profits from the range and teaching classes can off set the cost of selling guns and ammo.

This is my prediction for the next few years. But then I maybe i'm just full of sh_t and everything will be the same as it is now.;)
 
I also think that internet dealers days are also numbered. There is a lot of money exchanging both mail order and on the net. The Government does not think that they are getting their fair share of it. I look for some major changes in taxing or fees for out of state purchases in the not so far future.

I dunno, there are a LOT of people including some of the biggest and most profitable (and thus the most influential, lobbyist-wise) companies who make their livelihood via the internet these days and any legislators who made moves to tax interstate commerce via the net would likely put themselves in a ****storm. Various attempts by states to levy sales tax on goods bought or sold in other states are easy to ignore and have no teeth whatsoever anyway. If something like that ever came down on a federal level, I'd be willing to lay money on there being blood in the streets as a result.
 
Here in WSJ opinion pages, one argues that many of the tax avantages are trying to be taken exploited by the tax man



http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110009429

uConsumers have spent more than $20 billion shopping online since Thanksgiving--a 25% increase over a year ago. The total for this holiday season could approach $25 billion. This tracks what is expected to be strong holiday-shopping growth across the country, even in brick-and-mortar stores (which used to be called just "stores"). Not everyone will benefit equally, though all signs are that this Christmas season will be economically healthy all around.

But even Christmas stories, from Dickens to Seuss, need a villain. We'd like to nominate your friendly neighborhood state governments, which for years now have been predicting dire declines in state finances because untaxed online shopping would erode the revenue-raising ability of sales taxes.

As usual, the political gloom proved to be overwrought. State tax revenues took a header in 2002 along with the rest of the economy, but they've been growing smartly ever since. The third quarter of this year saw state tax revenues up 4.6% over last year, and that was a deceleration from growth that has bumped along at close to 10% at times in recent years. State sales-tax receipts grew at 4% in the third quarter--and that was the slowest growth in three years. The biggest news about the sales-tax apocalypse is that it isn't happening.

But the strong trend lines for overall tax receipts and sales-tax revenue in particular haven't slowed the move among states to grab a piece of the online-sales pie. In the 14 years since the Supreme Court ruled that the myriad state and local taxes were too complex for mail-order retailers to be expected to master, there's been a movement to obviate that argument by "streamlining" the country's many sales-tax regimes.

Indiana, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Vermont, West Virginia and more than a dozen other states have been busy laying the groundwork for an Internet sales tax regime that will charge consumers based on where they live, not where they click to when shopping online. And the system is already up and partially running.

In Quill Corp. v. North Dakota in 1992, the Supreme Court ruled that forcing retailers to learn the ins and outs of every local sales tax was too burdensome. Instead, the Court found retailers can be forced to collect sales taxes only where they have a physical presence.

But never underestimate the determination of politicians to impose a new tax. The Supreme Court left open the possibility of dispensing with the brick and mortar test if complying with various sales taxes could be made dramatically easier. So six years ago the National Governor's Association, the National Conference of State Legislatures and other politicians seeking more of your money founded a new organization to oversee the mammoth effort of aligning sales taxes across state lines. And the group--the Streamlined Sales Tax Governing Board--has made a lot of headway.

The biggest hurdle was getting several states to agree on how to simplify their sales taxes. The Board cleared that five years ago by striking an agreement that settled the most contentious issues, such as how to determine which locale's sales tax applies to a particular online sale. Today the Board counts 21 states as "members" of the agreement.

Approximately 1,000 retailers are also now "voluntarily" collecting online sales taxes, regardless of whether they are required to under Quill. The reason? Congress hasn't clarified what constitutes a "physical presence" and the Board has exploited fears that states might sue for back taxes by offering an "amnesty" to companies that start collecting taxes now. The catch is that to be eligible retailers must collect taxes on sales to shoppers in every member state. Last year, voluntary tax collection topped $30 million, a fraction of what states hope to rake in eventually.

Consumers are also finding themselves paying more in other ways. Last month, West Virginia Governor Joe Manchin shelved a tax cut when faced with either running afoul of the Board's definition of candy or imposing different tax rates depending on whether a candy item contains flour. Vermont will repeal taxes on clothing next month, but impose new taxes on computer software and beer.

"Simplifying" taxes thus turns out be a complicated business. Or to put it another way, this political exercise is already reducing the tax competition among states that has been a rare incentive for keeping the tax burden low. We are heading, willy-nilly and without much debate, toward a de facto national sales-tax regime. North Dakota State Senator Dwight Cook, a Republican and president of the Streamlined Sales Tax Board, told us he expects six states to reform their sales taxes next year. "The next couple of months could tell quite a story," he says.

That they could, and not necessarily a happy one for taxpayers. One source of economic growth in the U.S. has been the explosion of online purchases and the access of many small retailers and artisans to a global audience. These businesses already pay local income and property taxes, and the smaller they are the larger the burden of having to collect sales levies. The "streamlined" sales tax won't look so attractive to them.

The larger issue, however, is the decline in tax competition among the 50 states. One reason New York City has felt compelled to exempt purchases of clothing items below $110 from its 8.375% sales tax is to prevent too many shoppers from heading to New Jersey or Connecticut. The lack of an income or sales tax in New Hampshire has also forced nearby states like Massachusetts and Rhode Island to cut their own levies lest they lose even more taxpayers to Nashua or Manchester. And in the European Union, Ireland and the Baltic states have used low corporate rates or flat taxes to attract capital, driving the high-tax French and Germans to demand "tax harmonization" from the bureaucrats in Brussels.

The same self-interested impulse is driving the American state politicians who are quietly building this uniform multi-state online sales tax. If that's their game, then the least they could do for beleaguered taxpayers is cut income taxes to offset their new online windfall. Some smart politicians should start to demand it.
 
I have had the same problems with gun shops before,they know everything and you know nothing.I have went in the store before with a caliber in mind and they try to talk me out of it because they have a better idea:banghead: , turned around and walked out.My father in-law is the same way,he knows everything about guns and I know nothing.If you wrote a book on something they would still claim to know more:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
 
I was just reading a list of Clint Smith quotes I'd printed off a while back. He said "Every time I teach a class, I discover I don't know something." I think those who claim to know everything are wannabe's and the real deal knows there's always something they can pick up, learn, and use.

FWIW, countryrebel, I get annoyed by the situation you just brought up too. I was griping back up the thread about those guys I quit dealing with; they were that way too.
 
went to one a few weeks ago looking for some scent mask. " We don't carry that. I don't think it works anyway."

Since giving up on them, I have ordered a bunch of loading components and ammunition from Midway USA. A couple of hundred dollars in a month that would have eventually gone to the local gunstore. More to come.
 
Thinking of that scent mask stuff, there's a couple of shops here sold me some Tink's 69 and the equivelent in another brand... that stuff don't work in my area because of a difference in trees- in my area we have red oak, white oak, and a couple of others they don't have where they collected the stuff. I've always seen more deer and especially I see bucks when I don't use it. I still do business with this one shop, but I just don't waste my money on that stuff.
 
This thread reminds me of a hilarious run-in I had at a local shop after I moved from the big city (where I had all kinds of options on gun shops) to a small town in southern Indiana. I went in the local store just to look around (and probably looking and still stinking like a big city guy), spoke with the guy behind the counter for a few minutes, and started looking at the handguns. A few minutes later, the shop owner came out and asked what I was interested in. I mentioned that I like to look at S&W revolvers (this was about three years ago).

Well, Mr. Friendly suddenly frowned (which was pretty impressive coming from a 6'4", 275 lb. guy), and said "A lot of folks around here are still pissed off about what S&W did. We sell a lot of Rugers and Tauruses." It was like E.F. Hutton spoke or something - everything got real quiet in the shop. I went on to explain I'm really only interested in old S&W revolvers... and began slowly making my way through the good ol' boys and to the door.

But, you know, I thought about that a lot, and I've become a regular customer at that shop. The owner was running the business in accordance with his own convictions of how things ought to be done, which I can't fault, and I'm not a big fan of the S&W deal anyway. I realized that the only thing really negative about the whole thing was that he may have been a little rough around the edges with his presentation. And, I'm starting to see some S&Ws show up in there every once in awhile.

RBH
 
Poor customer service, and use carsalesman tatics are very common at small stores. I have noticed this alot in Mass where there are few gun stores, so little competition for dealers to worry abot losing customers. There is a store near me where the owner is a major jerk who will berate customers about the smallest things, and try to prove is vast knowledge about firearms, which he know little. But since he has very good prices on firearms (for Mass) he is able to stay in business.
 
Arrogant gun salesmen

I have had the occasional run in with these "experts". I had one who topped the rude chart. I had gone into this particular shop (not a Mom and Pop) in Birmingham,Al to purchase an AR15 or a clone. It was lunchtime and only one person was behind the counter. When I asked about the AR he said he didn't know but would get the manager/owner to help me. When the manager/owner came out I explained what I was looking for, he handed me a match grade Colt that was all "dolled up" for competition, bull barrel,etc. to the tune of around $2500. No ,I wanted something not so expensive ,I said. You would have thought that I had insulted his mother or worse. He put the gun back on the rack and headed to the back saying that he was going to finish his lunch and told the other guy not to bother him again. Consequently I went to his competition who was more than helpful. He brought out a Colt early model at $1160 and a Bushmaster ES15 at $1040. I say, I dont' know if I have that much cash on me.He says, Let me see what I can do for cash. He goes into the back and comes out a few minutes later and offers either gun for $200 less than the tag. I buy the Bushmaster for $800 (plus a new Colt 30rd mag) and do my business there from then on.
 
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I like the red fox urine and skunk scents. I suppose they work as I have gotten close to several things.
Mad at smith and wesson reminds me of a real good one the local shop pulled. They got mad at Speer/RCBS and by extension, alliant technosystems, CCI et al and quit ordering their stuff. Since that accounts for like 80 percent (guess) of the ammunition and reloading supplies, they didn't have much on hand until they got over their tiff.
 
I never realized I had it so good. My local gunshop is a half a block away from my office. It's a small, local shop whose proprietor has steered me away from some bad purchases (in his own shop!) If he has a consignment gun that I want but he thinks is not the right gun for me, he'll outline why. I've only failed to listen to his advice once and I won't make that mistake again. He'll special order anything in for 1/2 down. He's even done some basic gunsmithing for me. Plus it's a real old-timey gun shop in a small town. It's more of a live forum for the exchange of stories, lies, information and jokes.
Then there's Cabelas, a half-hour away. They're okay. Usually, I get super service from them, but I can't afford their guns. I don't bother them with anything subjective. To a person, their sales department considers themselves to be the last word on any topic you choose. I have no problem with someone saying "...I personally don't like.." or "...I have good luck with..." But when a complete stranger says to me, "...Savages aren't nearly as accurate as Remingtons..." or, "...the latest trend is ..." I just stop listening.
 
Ran into a sales clerk last year who did not know his "behind from a hole in the ground". Had decided on this used M1-A and it looked about 90%. Handed him a pistol permit to start the transaction. Then I asked if he had a combination wrench to go with it-no. Then asked if I could borrow a wrench so I could check the gas piston-no. Well then pulled the handle back and pulled the bolt out and he went nuts-I do not think he had ever taken a 14 apart. I just stopped him and asked to speak to the manager, whom I know personally. He got sent to the stock room for awhile and --even pulled the piston for me to inspect.
They do the same ammo trick there by only having a limited supply up front. By the way, the store is bankrupt now-they jacked up too many I suppose. wc
 
There is a local shop that is 5 min away from me. They dont tend to have the best selection, but I know the guys that work there and own the place. They share sound advice, and tend to not let their prefrences get in the way. The one guy is a a big Smith&Wesson guy. When I was looking for my first handgun he suggested a GP 100 over the Smiths he had in the case. They will order anything I want and let me look through their catalogues so I can find stuff and I can see what it is going to cost them to get it in. Its the kind of set up where if I want something in the used case they'll work out a price with me and put it in the back for a week or so until I have the cash to buy it.
That being said at other stores big and small Ive run into LOTS of guys that know everything about any kind of gun you want to look at. I dont know everything, heck I dont know much at all really, but some people are totally full of crap and shrug off facts as if they were nothing. I think the saying goes "A fool thinks himself wise, but a wiseman knows himself to be a fool." Im always ready to learn from anyone, these kind of people cant be taught.
 
Let him know!!!

OP, I would have told this guy what I thought of his customer service (and his BM AR15 and) and let him know exactly why he would no longer be receiving my business. But then, I'm confrontational like that.

Zook
 
Poof goes the rant

</rant mode>

<story deleted>

Sometimes, especially when the moon is near full,
and the weather is weird, ya just gotta rant some. :mad:

But after thinking about it, I'll think I'll not archive my rant about rude.

Regardless of whether I get along comfortably with those folks. Even if it's sometimes couched in - um, less than respectful tones, they've offered (mostly, say 5/7) reliable and useful information.

I have respect for everyone there. Some more than others, admittedly, but still, I don't think their behavior is malicious; just ingrained from their own experiences, their own issues. We've all got our share, eh? (Who? ME? :uhoh: )

I'm still hopeful that respect and kindness may break out in that store. :scrutiny:

I'm doing my share to carry some in there ... ;)
 
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attitudes in the gunshop

The problem doesn't always lie with the store. When I had my shop I ran into all kinds of people and many were just plain jerks. I have had some to bring in guns for rebluing saying they weren't in a hurry for it, only to be back EVERY week wanting to know when it would be ready and why it was taking so long. One wanted to buy modern shotshells for his DAMACUS TWIST barrelled shotgun to use at a "turkey shoot", I refused to sell to him since he had told me his intentions. After telling me how ignorant I was he bought the shells at his own peril. The knucklehead even brought the blown apart barrels to me to get them "rewelded". The most recent and the most (insert any desription here) was the day of my fathers funeral. I had taken in a Rem.autoloader to be reblued (this was in 2003 when I was helping a friend in his shop)the week before with no promise of delivery time. This guy calls wanting to know why it wasn't ready (after less than a week) and that he was coming to pick it up. I explained to him that I was about to leave for the funeral home for my dad's funeral. He said "I'm sorry about your dad but I want my gun, have it ready when I get there". He wanted the rifle to go hunting with that day and wanted to bring it back after the hunt!!!Needless to say if he got it blued ,it was done elsewhere! Bottom line is : respect me and I will respect you.
 
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Its not all that unusual too raise the prices on military surplus ammo, as
right now that kind'a stuff is extremely hard to get. When I first entered
the business, we sold WOLF 7.62 x 39 for $2.99 a box. Last year, during
the week between Christmas and New Years we sold Silver Bear 7.62 x
39 for $5.99 per box of 20. Also, we had a 5 box limit per customer.

Yes, I have the more expensive (Remington Core-Lok) 7.62 x 39; but I
don't try too push it off on anyone. Occassionally, a customer may want
the higher price stuff for whatever reason; so I have to stock it-RIGHT?
 
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