Article claims "States with higher gun ownership have higher murder rates"

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ProguninTN said:
Yes, income is also relevant. Perhaps, I should have mentioned that. You include a reference to lifestyle; Might that be a reference to Routine Activities Theory ? (Lifestyle is indeed another important factor.)

Either my criminological education or my memory is lacking, I had to look that up. :D

So, the answer is "no". I was using "lifestyle" in the sense that people, of any color, who share similar income, housing, education, entertainment etc. will tend to have similar rates of crime.

Race correlates to violent crime in that some minorities, blacks especially, tend to be over-represented among the urban poor among whom, regardless of color, violent crime (especially based on illegal drug traffic) is much more common. Going into why that over-representation exists is a big ol' historical and sociological rat's nest and is way off topic of most threads..

I gathered you weren't pointing fingers based on race and were just referencing the correlation. I sometimes like to restate the finer points just to remind folks that, correlation aside, it isn't a "race thing".
 
Harvard School of Public Health

The know it-alls who know nothing and are basically using grant money to make up bunk reports.


The researchers used the 2001 survey, which included this question:

your kidding right? come on get some recent info ask questions that dont support your already drawn conclusion. They were looking for an answer and they got the answer they went looking for.
 
Quote:
The researchers used the 2001 survey, which included this question:
your kidding right? come on get some recent info ask questions that dont support your already drawn conclusion.
Eh?

The question is pretty neutral, I think. Prior to 2001 the survey did not ask about firearms.

Whether it was the right question, whether it was answered honestly by respondents, whether what they thought they knew was accurate, whether the telephone survey found a representative sample, whether some folks who might have been able to answer 'yes' chose to hang up on the researchers, all of these (and more) are reasonable things to investigate about the survey - but just asking the question, IMHO, is a long way from being biased.

It takes time to complete the compilation of survey data - real researchers, including CDC, are careful about that stuff. 2001 data from the survey probably did not get published until 2003, and the homicide data - they used 2001-2003 - would not have been complete until maybe late 2004, early 2005.

Besides that, an objection to the date of the data implies that something interesting may have happened to affect the subsequent data. That's possible, of course, but I can't think of anything like that between 2001 and now. (Sept 11, of course, and the war in Iraq are pretty significant, but would they really increase gun ownership significantly (maybe) and/or the willingness to answer a telephone survey?)

I can't get at the Harvard study itself - it isn't available through my college library, though the December 2006 issue of the journal is. Based on authorship and sponsor, I tend to believe it's "more of the same", but it's only fair to read the actual study before speculation about its conclusions. Press reports of the study conclusions are often quite far off from what studies actually say.
 
Guns have been banned in Wash. D.C for 35 years and their homicide rate is six times the national average. On average, states that have "right to carry laws", see a significant reduction in violent crime, rapes fall by 25%, murders by 7%, robberies by 5%, ect. This study is a skewed, flawed study that is taking biased, selective information to reach faulty conclusions. A typical tactic of the anti-gunners.

www.gunfacts.info

That's one of the problems with gunfacts. It's an extremely deceptive comparison. For a more accurate comparison see: http://guncite.com/gun_control_rtcstates.html
 
Glenn Reynolds, aka Instapundit, wraps up the BS study neatly, and puts a big red bow on it:

http://instapundit.com/archives2/2007/01/post_1665.php
Just as there are many deficient rebuttals of Kellermann's research flying around the 'net, it's already starting with this new study. Tim Lambert has some comments here: http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2007/01/more_guns_more_homicide.php

I'm not defending the study. I haven't read it yet, however the track record of Hemenway and the Joyce Foundation is not exemplary.

I'm not defending Kellermann's research either. It was flawed. Howver, as mentioned, there are so many flawed rebuttals on the net, that when they are rebutted, it gives the false impression that Kellermann's research and conclusions are valid.

Money Quote:
Quote:
If a drug company were as cavalier about science as these people are, its executives would all be in jail.
Now that's funny because there is much to cholesterol research that is fraudulent. (I realize this is OT, but I don't understand why instapundit, as well as many other blogs are so popular.)
 
The methodology looks to be standard. The conclusions are pretty conservative and easily checked.

So yes, bitching, moaning, and paranoid clutching of the Sacred Gun Totem notwithstanding it certainly seems (barring future research) that states with higher gun ownership have higher rates of homicide. It's probably a fact. Learning to deal with inconvenient or unpleasant facts is a part of growing up.
 
tellner,

It may indeed be a fact, but it is so broad as to not tell us anything useful. As was said, a similar study could show correlation between car or fishing pole ownership and homicide and not mean anything.

If it is going to be used to try to determine causality, policy or law; that weakness needs to be admitted by those who would use it. For a scientist to use this broad correlation in any reference to "gun control" is intellectually dishonest.
 
Here are some remarks on this latest pearl of wisdom from the Harvard School of Public Health. I'm trying to evaluate it on the merits of the science as opposed to how I feel about the authors.

Miller, Hemenway, & Azrael (2007). State-level homicide victimization rates in the US in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine, 64, 656-664.

Warning: If you don't like statistics you might want to skip this one. Seriously.

The short version:

Miller et. al. used rates of household firearm ownership from the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (a large scale survey conducted by the Centers for Disease Control), aggregated across the 50 US states, and compared these with homicide rates and a number of other variables from a multitude of sources such as the US census. They report several analysis showing a relationship between rates of firearm ownership and homicide, and conclude that "...our findings suggest that the household may be an important source of firearms used to kill men, women, and children in the United States."

Issues of concern:

The article reports an extensive and complex series of analyses using a data set with 50 observations. It requires a lot of work to determine what specifically was done. My first concern is that if this relationship in fact exists in a meaningful way, it should be possible to describe it in simpler terms.

The BRFSS survey data are about as credible as survey data get, so this part of the study should not be dismissed out of hand. However, any survey estimates of household firearms ownership should be expected to involve a substantial amount of error due to likely relationships between survey nonresponse, firearms ownership, item nonresponse (willingness to reveal owning firearms), and geography. The measurement issues are not seriously discussed in the paper, and they represent a major gap in the development of credible research on the relationship between firearms ownership and crime.

There are several specific statistical issues to be concerned about.

1. Reducing individual-level data to aggregate figures as practiced here is an example of what's called the "ecological fallacy", in which inferences are made about individuals based only on information on the group level. The authors admit this, but are clearly arguing that firearms ownership represents a risk factor on the individual level.

2. Some of the models involve regression analysis with a substantial number (11) of independent variables, based on only 50 data points. This is technically possible, but is rarely practiced because the results obtained often unstable. Nearly any textbook describing multiple regression methods will confirm this, usually recommending a minimum of 10 - 20 cases per variable as a reasonable "rule of thumb". The "degrees of freedom" used for statistical significance testing is not reported.

3. There is no report of an effect size or "proportion of variance explained" associated with the models. Very few journals will report regression analysis without including this statistic (e.g., “R-squared”), because it is the most easily understood information that allows a reader to evaluate the overall usefulness of the model. Leaving it out usually implies that the model explains very little of the variation in the measure being studied, and it also tells you something about the journal's standards.

4. "To derive estimates of the association between household firearm prevalence and homicide, we used negative binomial regression models and generalized estimating equations to estimate regression parameters. Negative binomial regression is appropriate for estimating models for count data that are overdispersed (i.e. the variance is greater than the mean) (Lawless, 1987), as is the case with state-level homicide data." This all sounds very technical and impressive. However the investigators were not analyzing raw count data, but rates. I don't have time to look up whether it makes a difference, but it seems likely to me that there is a difference. Perhaps there is someone here who is familiar with this method. Additionally, the description of the rates as "overdispersed" should raise a red flag. It suggests that these data may be distributed in ways that are not conducive to effective regression analysis.

5. There is a scatterplot of homicide victimization rates by the percent of state populations living in households with firearms, which shows an apparent relationship based on regression lines. However, there is an obvious outlier in the graph, the state with the highest homicide rate (nearly 10 per 100,000). This state also has one of the higher rates of firearms ownership at just over 40%. It is very clear that this single state is likely to have a strong influence on the regression line.

A hint that the authors are aware of this is in their description of their sensitivity analysis. They found equivalent results when removing the top 5 or bottom 5 states in firearm ownership. But they did not consider whether their results might have been different if they had removed the top 5 or bottom 5 states for homicide rates. The slopes are not very strong in the first place (.1), so perhaps they would not have been found to be significant in the absence of the apparent outlier case.

6. There is very little information on base rates in the article. Almost every cited statistic reflects a relative rate or transformation that is difficult to understand. But there is a clue; firearm homicide rates by state are stated to have ranged from 16 to 5,181, (mean = 693, SD = 909). There is a lot of variability here. These rates are broken down by age and gender, so that means there are a lot of states with either zero or very low numbers in some of the categories. This information is not provided in the tables of rates.

A few other odds and ends:

The authors make a great deal about finding a relationship between rates of firearms ownership and rates of firearm homicide, but no relationship between rates of firearms ownership and rates of non-firearm homicide. We would expect to see the latter as well if the relationship reflects a response to crime rather than a cause of it. It's hard to say for sure whether this argument has merit, as I'm not fully convinced that the relationship between firearms ownership and firearm homicide has been adequately demonstrated. It's worth thinking about it though, what if the relationship is real, would that pattern mean what they say it means?

It's worth remembering that not all homicides should be considered "victimization". Some of them represent cases of legitimate self-defense. If a state has one homicide in which a gun owner fatally shoots an intruder bent on mayhem we have a perfect correlation between firearms ownership and "victimization". But who's the victim?

It's also worth remembering that not all shooting incidents result in death. It's like trying to understand highway safety by only looking at fatalities. You need to look at the total number of accidents. In this case, if the authors are correct there should be an identical pattern among non-fatal, intentional shootings (if such data exist, and they very well might). This would be more convincing than the statistical gymnastics reported in the article.

On balance, I don't see any single "fatal flaw" that obviously invalidates the results described by Miller et. al. However, there is a great deal of ambiguity in their very complex analysis. Even if this were a relationship that I was motivated to see, I don't think I would find the argument to be convincing. The sophistication of the methods used stands in contrast to the types of omissions in the report (such as the lack of any measures of effect size and the very limited information about the base numbers behind the models for age/sex subgroups).

In the conclusions, a statement is made in reference to “our cross-sectional finding that household firearm prevalence is a risk factor for homicide victimization of Americans…”, but the aggregated results do not really permit this type of individual-level interpretation.

Finally, consider the closing statement: "Our findings that household firearm ownership rates are related to firearm and overall homicide rates, but not to non-firearm homicide rates, for women, children, and men of all ages, even after controlling for several potential confounders previously identified in the literature, suggests that household firearms are a direct and an indirect source of firearms used to kill Americans both in their homes and on their streets."

Given that virtually anybody who is not living in an institutional setting can be considered to be living in a "household", the conclusion of this report can be alternatively stated as Firearms used in homicides are owned by people, who often live in households.”

Quick, someone call the MacArthur Foundation, it's time to nominate a "genius" award...

John
 
This is why you pay attention to assessment reports and not individual scientific studies. There are too many crazies out there and not enough peer-reviewers.
 
John,

You and most (not all) of the posters who are trying to analyze the latest "research" from Hemenway are missing one big point. That study as well as many others don't take into account the previous criminal record of the murderers and victims. And in the case of domestic violence resulting in homicide, the perpetrators' previous incidents of violence.

The majority of homicides involve such people, and overwhelm any attempts at finding meaningful correlations. Naturally, Hemenway's "study" doesn't take into account that largest single common factor.

It's a given that criminals or those who have committed violence in the past, with guns, are more likely to commit homicide than those without.
 
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So yes, bitching, moaning, and paranoid clutching of the Sacred Gun Totem notwithstanding it certainly seems (barring future research) that states with higher gun ownership have higher rates of homicide. It's probably a fact.

As a matter of logic the above is likely true. So is the statement that states
that have higher numbers of automobiles have higher number of traffic deaths. Or states that have a higher number of swimming pools have a higher number of drownings.

We could apply this rational to a large number of inanimate objects and do a study that would show an increase in the number of adverse events related to the object as a correllary to the number of studied objects. This type of logic can be applied not just to objects but to behaviors. Tobacco deaths are usually higher in states that grow tobacco. Places with a higher number of smokers have a higher number of tobacco related disease and death, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

I fail to see the purpose for studies such as these outside of the obvious political agenda they are used for. If we really were concerned about preventable deaths we would ban cars, bicycles, swimming pools and a large number of other items that cause death on a regular basis. This is just more fodder for political pandering.
 
Ieyasu,

I agree with your comment, which illustrates why the "ecological fallacy" is a serious concern for this report. In fairness to Miller et al, they do clearly acknowledge this as a limitation of their analysis. They then argue that it does not matter because more guns in households means more guns available "on the street" through theft.

As to the "it's likely true" statements, I'm still not convinced.

I looked into the negative binomial regression model and learned that it is in fact a very good method for this type of analysis but there is no easily interpretable measure of effect size to report.

However, I still think there is more going on here than is being reported because of the small range in confidence intervals, given that there are only 50 data points and a great many control variables. For example, their coefficient for firearm homicide, all ages, is converted to an "incidence rate ratio" of 3.3% (2.4% - 4.2%). This is supposed to be the percent increase in firearm homicides associated with a one percentage point absolute difference in household firearms ownership rates, controlling for a hodgepodge of other variables (which in itself suggests a "fishing expedition" in which you keep adding and removing different control variables until you get the results you are looking for). This is a very narrow range (95% confidence) I'd expect to see with a much larger sample size, as in thousands of cases. Given what we know about the variability of the data, I wonder if they didn't do anything fishy like inflating the sample to the number of cases per state in the BRFSS survey? It just smells wrong to me.

Also, it still looks to me that a great deal of the effect is driven by the outlier case, which I think may be Louisiana. I'm pretty sure the analysis represents only the 50 states.

As to the purpose, xrayboy, if you do enough "studies" showing that a relationship is plausible, even without actually demonstrating the relationship, you build a case to get more funding to do the bigger scale research that actually could show those details. And, you build up an impressive list of titles that can be used to get tenure and citations that can later be used to bolster an otherwise weak argument. These are true regardless of the politics of the situation.

John
 
(1) Has one single poster on here read the study? :confused: If so, did they control for race, or not?


(2) Oh, and to the people stating that the race difference in homicides goes away when you control for income - prove it. Are you really telling me that poor asians and poor blacks have similar murder rates? I would like to see it if the study has been done.
:neener:
 
Malum,

It isn't income per se. It's class and lifestyle. Give a thug a million dollars and he's a rich thug; give a guy a straight job, and a house in the suburbs, and 2.2 kids, the whole middle class lifestyle, and he won't be committing homicide at the same rate as his twin brother who may make the same amount of money but lives in a trailer or the ghetto, hangs out with other criminals, doesn't have a job, etc.

People in similar lifestyle brackets (which to a degree can correlate to income) commit crimes at roughly the same rates, race notwithstanding.

Poor asians tend to not live the same lifestyle of poverty, lack of education, employment etc. as poor blacks, poor white trash, poor Hispanics etc. But again, when you go beyond income into a number of other criteria is where you see the distinctions.
 
Well, we can't very well control for "thuggishness" in such a study, can we?

Yes, I am sure "thugs" have a higher homicide rate. :rolleyes:

So, did they control for race in this study, or not? :confused:
 
I can't get the actual study to come up http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2006.09.024 , I'll see if I can track it down another way.

From the press release it sure looks like the answer to whether they controlled for race is "no", just raw gun ownership.

And don't be a smart-ass about the thug comment. You know what I meant.

Education is controllable, as is home ownership, and employment by type of job, and home location, and median characteristics of neighbors, and education, and number of children, and education of children, and length of citizenship, and literacy and any number of other factors that determine social class and lifestyle beyond mere income or race.

Controlling for income and race without looking at other lifestyle factors is just as poor and useless science as just controlling for raw gun ownership.
 
Control variables included: urbanization, resource deprivation (an index including median family income, percent of families living beneath the poverty line, and the Gini index of family income inequality), unemployment, divorce, percent of population 18-34 years old, aggravated assault rate, robbery rate, per capita alcohol consumption, and Southern region. No mention of race / ethnicity.

Again, these are all aggregated figures by state; none of this is measured on an individual level.

Covariates significantly associated with homicide and firearm homicide rates were:

% of population living in urban areas (firearm homicide only)
resource deprivation
aggravated assault rate
robbery rate
Southern (vs non-southern) state
Per capita alcohol consumption (negative)

John
 
His team used data from a U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention survey of 200,000 people in all 50 states.
It was a survey, not an actual count. IMHO you can make a survey come out any way you want it to.
"Our findings suggest that in the United States, household firearms may be an important source of guns used to kill children, women and men, both on the street and in their homes," said Matthew Miller, assistant professor of health policy and injury prevention, who led the study.
Notice it says, "May be an important source of guns " and not "is an important source of guns".

How do they define "homicide/s"? Is it the same definition for the accidental shooting death, the victim shooting the assailant, or the victim of of a robbery/murder?
 
Oh, proguninTN,

Race is a statistical thing, not an individual thing. Statisically, if your people grew up in Tropical Africa, it was to your advantage, and to the advantage of yer genes, to act quickly and procreate quickly. If yer folks spent a lot of time in the Northern Latitudes, it was good for them to think, and ponder, and lay in supplies for the Winter.

INDIVIDUALS VARY FROM THE NORM! That is, there may well be dark-complectioned folks with West African ancestry who think like white guys from Norway, and vice versa.

(but not very many)

Of course, most people, by definition, are "normal". I'm partial to the weird ones, as long as they're rational.
 
This is very funny. Today's report. The number of murders in Providence RI was half of what it was last year despite the fact that all anti-gun bills were killed last year. Boston has seen a spike in the number of murders this past year with all their gun restrictions.
 
The problem with this "study", and what makes it worthless is the fact that they're comparing a scalar quantity to a percentage. They say that states with the most guns have the highest murder rates.

The "Most guns" here is, I believe, just the raw number of guns in a state, not the percentage of firearms owners. It stands to reason that there are more guns in New Jersey than Wyoming just because there's an order of magnitude more population, even though nobody would argue that WY doesn't have a higher firearms ownership rate.

If you want a fair answer, use firearms ownership rates vs murders (all types, not just guns). Of course we all know what that answer will be, and it's not what the antis want to hear.
 
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