At a gun shop today
- Thread starter RH822
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Gee, I've also heard that firing live ammo through your gun will wear out the trigger mechanism, the sear, and wear out the rifling. Does this mean that we should all put or guns on a shelf and admire them??? I think not. Just a thought. Giddy up Cowboy.:
XLMiguel
Member
Hmmmmm - I baby my guns and I treat other's as I would my own. I'll use teh slide stop/release on a reload, but I ease it on down when empty, just like I let the hammer down easy on an SA pistol. I use snapcaps for dryfiring. I'm probably a bit anal, but I don't have any broken guns.
Bottom line is: do what you want with your own stuff, but one should be gentle with other's. I don't loan much of anything to folks I don't know well and whose judgment and practice I know equally well. When in doubt, I show them how to use it properly, and explain my expectations on use, care, and responsibility. If they don't 'get it', they don't get it. So far, so good. YMMV.
Bottom line is: do what you want with your own stuff, but one should be gentle with other's. I don't loan much of anything to folks I don't know well and whose judgment and practice I know equally well. When in doubt, I show them how to use it properly, and explain my expectations on use, care, and responsibility. If they don't 'get it', they don't get it. So far, so good. YMMV.
statelineblues
Member
Dropping the Hammer
From the U.S. Army Manual of Arms (Automatic Pistol, Cal .45, M1911 and M1911A1) states:
"To unload, come to the position of 'Raise Pistol'. Press the magazine catch and remove the magazine. If the slide is in the forward position, pull it to the rear and push the slide stop up. Inspect the chamber to insure that the pistol is clear. Press the slide stop down, allowing the slide to go forward. Remaining at 'Raise Pistol', squeeze the trigger;Then holster the weapon."
From the U.S. Army Manual of Arms (Automatic Pistol, Cal .45, M1911 and M1911A1) states:
"To unload, come to the position of 'Raise Pistol'. Press the magazine catch and remove the magazine. If the slide is in the forward position, pull it to the rear and push the slide stop up. Inspect the chamber to insure that the pistol is clear. Press the slide stop down, allowing the slide to go forward. Remaining at 'Raise Pistol', squeeze the trigger;Then holster the weapon."
Glockfan.45
member
I always ask if its ok to dry fire, work the action, etc at a shop. Its just courtesy. You dont take a test drive to the local drag strip do you? As far as dropping the slide on a empty chamber goes if its one of my Glocks go ahead, if its my Kimber Target II with a not so stock trigger I will drop the slide on your 
. Treat others property with "kid gloves" unless you get the go ahead .
. Treat others property with "kid gloves" unless you get the go ahead .camp_gunner
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Allowing the slide to close on an empty chamber is highly unlikey to do any more damage the sear and trigger than firing the gun. The basis for this statement is as follows:
As the slide comes to the rear, the hammer is pushed beyond the full cock postion, resting against the bottom of the slide.
As the slide goes forward, the hammer comes off the bottom of the slide and following the cam surface of the firing pin retainer rotates until it comes in contact with the sear.
Given that this action occurs in less than 1/10 of an inch of the slide's travel, the slight difference in the speed of the slide will make little difference in the radial speed of the hammer. The contact will occur with a force that will vary more with temperature than slide speed.
My experience with target 1911's, setup with ultra light triggers and no half cock safety notches is that you can drop them all day long and not effect the trigger. The gun will occasonaly fire on the first round because you have not added the addition spring effects of a depressed trigger.
There is a possibility of increased peening of the locking surfaces of the barrel and slide due to increased slide speed, if you are worried about this use a softer recoil spring. This will reduce wear at the cost of functional reliability.
The retired US Army Major for whom I worked as a gunsmith for seventeen years would laugh at this whole discussion. While he was on the Army pistol team the fired well over a hundred thousand rounds, and he thougt nothing of dropping a slide.
Now as to revolvers that have cranes. Snapping them open or closed is clearly bad. Revolvers are such delicate little things, with lots of fragile little parts that get bent or broken easly. In example, consider the cylinder latching parts in a S&W. There is a small rod that does the actual locking, it is in general about 1/8 of an inch in diameter, and over 4 inches long. Any warpage of this rod binds the gun. The hole that it go into in the frame can and indeed does get worn, causing slop in the entire assembly. In other words, the cylinder latching parts in a revolver need the gentlest possible handling.
Having said all that, if it is the store policy that slides not be dropped, they need to find a polite way to make sure that the customers know. If you are in a store that does not like slides to be dropped on empty chambers, it is polite to follow their wishes.
Of course, the only way to settle this whole thing would be to instrument a gun and see what the slide Delta V is between a unloaded versus a loaded condition. Sounds like a job for Myth Busters.
As the slide comes to the rear, the hammer is pushed beyond the full cock postion, resting against the bottom of the slide.
As the slide goes forward, the hammer comes off the bottom of the slide and following the cam surface of the firing pin retainer rotates until it comes in contact with the sear.
Given that this action occurs in less than 1/10 of an inch of the slide's travel, the slight difference in the speed of the slide will make little difference in the radial speed of the hammer. The contact will occur with a force that will vary more with temperature than slide speed.
My experience with target 1911's, setup with ultra light triggers and no half cock safety notches is that you can drop them all day long and not effect the trigger. The gun will occasonaly fire on the first round because you have not added the addition spring effects of a depressed trigger.
There is a possibility of increased peening of the locking surfaces of the barrel and slide due to increased slide speed, if you are worried about this use a softer recoil spring. This will reduce wear at the cost of functional reliability.
The retired US Army Major for whom I worked as a gunsmith for seventeen years would laugh at this whole discussion. While he was on the Army pistol team the fired well over a hundred thousand rounds, and he thougt nothing of dropping a slide.
Now as to revolvers that have cranes. Snapping them open or closed is clearly bad. Revolvers are such delicate little things, with lots of fragile little parts that get bent or broken easly. In example, consider the cylinder latching parts in a S&W. There is a small rod that does the actual locking, it is in general about 1/8 of an inch in diameter, and over 4 inches long. Any warpage of this rod binds the gun. The hole that it go into in the frame can and indeed does get worn, causing slop in the entire assembly. In other words, the cylinder latching parts in a revolver need the gentlest possible handling.
Having said all that, if it is the store policy that slides not be dropped, they need to find a polite way to make sure that the customers know. If you are in a store that does not like slides to be dropped on empty chambers, it is polite to follow their wishes.
Of course, the only way to settle this whole thing would be to instrument a gun and see what the slide Delta V is between a unloaded versus a loaded condition. Sounds like a job for Myth Busters.
Lupinus
Member
doesn't really matter
His shop, in his inventory so his gun, his rules when you handle it.
Some people are rough, some gentle and baby things. Esspecialy if it was an item in my inventory I'd baby it too.
Leaning on a brand new car in the show room shoudln't do any damage either, but if the dealer says something don't be surprised.
His shop, in his inventory so his gun, his rules when you handle it.
Some people are rough, some gentle and baby things. Esspecialy if it was an item in my inventory I'd baby it too.
Leaning on a brand new car in the show room shoudln't do any damage either, but if the dealer says something don't be surprised.
People keep saying this, and I don't think anyone here disagrees with it. It would be the ultimate sign of rudeness to go ahead and do something you were just not asked to do. But the key here is he needs to inform customers of the rules. If you don't you cant expect them to follow something you haven't told them about.
EddieCoyle
Member
Before I buy this car, I'd really like to test the air bag deployment.
skipjack
Member
"My second response, I handed the HP back to him (still grinning)and told him to have a nice day and walked out."
Therein lies the problem with this particular store. If treated rudely, most folks will walk. The clerk SHOULD tell a potential buyer to refrain from releasing the slide, if that is their policy. If the clerk can't remember to or refuses to tell the customer, then a sign should be posted. It would save a lot of customer relations.
I'm glad some of you who responded so rudely don't work in my sales organization. You would be a former employee in short order; along with the clerk referred to in the original post. Employee relations/customer service is everything in any sales organization. When the small stores who complain about the chain stores taking over their business figure that out, they will start to retain their customer base.
"Before I buy this gun I'd like to shoot it."
I hope so! Go to a range with a rental program, if possible. If not, do your best to find someone who has the model you are interested in.
Therein lies the problem with this particular store. If treated rudely, most folks will walk. The clerk SHOULD tell a potential buyer to refrain from releasing the slide, if that is their policy. If the clerk can't remember to or refuses to tell the customer, then a sign should be posted. It would save a lot of customer relations.
I'm glad some of you who responded so rudely don't work in my sales organization. You would be a former employee in short order; along with the clerk referred to in the original post. Employee relations/customer service is everything in any sales organization. When the small stores who complain about the chain stores taking over their business figure that out, they will start to retain their customer base.
"Before I buy this gun I'd like to shoot it."
I hope so! Go to a range with a rental program, if possible. If not, do your best to find someone who has the model you are interested in.
DRZinn
Member
Really all it would take would be a sign something like:
Lupinus
Member
he doesn't tell you not to take the gun and drop it either
Some things are just common sense, like you treat something that isn't yours carefully and if you do anything that isn't quite that careful you ask first.
Sure I fully expect to work the action and dry fire before I buy a gun, but I never do it without asking first.
Some things are just common sense, like you treat something that isn't yours carefully and if you do anything that isn't quite that careful you ask first.
Sure I fully expect to work the action and dry fire before I buy a gun, but I never do it without asking first.
Str8Shooter
Member
Well, there seems to be quite a few differing opinions on the harmfulness of letting a slide slam forward. I can't recall ever reading in any of my semi-auto pistol manuals that this will harm a common production gun, so if the manufacturer of a semi-auto isn't concerned about it and doesn't say a word about it in the manual, how is a new gun owner or prospective buyer in a gun store supposed to know how terrible (at least according to some of the opinions posted in this thread) this is? I also think most of the snotty comments are uncalled for. If this action really is harmful to a gun, it certainly isn't something that would be immediately obvious to a person who has never been instructed about it.
richyoung
Member
If you think that slide isn't going forward FASTER after recoiling from firing a live round and bouncing forward again, I've got a bridge in Brookland I'd like to sell you...
My mags are Chip McCormick Powermags - heaviest mag spring you can get. Perversly, when I unload a mag by hand, the rounds JUMP out, almost effrortlessly. Unless the magazine has rough feed lips, I don't see this as an issue. Certainly not with a polished feed ramp.
With all due respect - horsepucky!. Next time you have the barrel out of YOUR 1911, take the time to hold it muzzle down, and drop an undammaged factory round into it. See how it slides in all the way, with no effort? If chambering a round SLOWS THE SLIDE APPRECIABLEY - you have the wrong, ammo, dmmaged or dirty ammo, a very fouled gun, or a serious problem.
...compared to canking of a +P flying ashtray? Or a 10mm? Not hardly...
NO - NOT doing it is an old wive's tail - it may have had some merit when soft steel sears and hammers were "smithed" into sub two pound trigger pulls for various competitions, especially with the old steel triggers - with modern alloys and lightweight triggers, its horsepucky.
Zach S
Member
I agree that it's not at all obvious, especially to a beginner, why it's "bad" let the slide snap forward on an empty chamber, if it is indeed bad. I sure did it a few times in gunshops early on, fortunately without getting any dirty looks from the staff. I don't do it now for various reasons - if there's any truth to the idea that it can hurt the sear, breechface, etc., why ask for trouble? It's not as if it's difficult to ease the slide forward. Plus, it makes what could be considered a startling noise and could also be perceived as careless treatment of unpaid-for merchandise.
I see it as ultimately a combination of courtesy to the store owners and employees and also saving "rough" treatment of a gun for when you actually need to treat it roughly - for example, by shooting it. However, except arguably in the case of 1911s, and particularly 1911s with nice trigger jobs, I don't think it's worth getting bent out shape over.
I see it as ultimately a combination of courtesy to the store owners and employees and also saving "rough" treatment of a gun for when you actually need to treat it roughly - for example, by shooting it. However, except arguably in the case of 1911s, and particularly 1911s with nice trigger jobs, I don't think it's worth getting bent out shape over.
BrennanKG
Member
IMHO
This thread seems to trying to encompass a number of issues, including:
1) Dropping a slide onto an empty chamber on a 1911.
2) Dropping a slide onto an empty chamber on any other handgun.
3) Using the slide stop/release to close the slide on a 1911.
4) Using the slide stop/release to close the slide on any other handgun.
5) Dry-firing gunshop/other people's firearms.
6) Proper general handling of firearms at a gun shop.
At my work we have this issue called exceeding scope of work. That's when our work starts pushing the definition envelope of the contract. What ensues is team members get focussed on non-core issues, and the program progress suffers as a result.
The posts of this thread are all over the map, ranging from model and action specific opinions, to discussions (arguments) about handling rules and conduct.
With all of these fascinating digressions and related topics, I wonder if the original poster has actually gotten his question(s) answered.
B.
This thread seems to trying to encompass a number of issues, including:
1) Dropping a slide onto an empty chamber on a 1911.
2) Dropping a slide onto an empty chamber on any other handgun.
3) Using the slide stop/release to close the slide on a 1911.
4) Using the slide stop/release to close the slide on any other handgun.
5) Dry-firing gunshop/other people's firearms.
6) Proper general handling of firearms at a gun shop.
At my work we have this issue called exceeding scope of work. That's when our work starts pushing the definition envelope of the contract. What ensues is team members get focussed on non-core issues, and the program progress suffers as a result.
The posts of this thread are all over the map, ranging from model and action specific opinions, to discussions (arguments) about handling rules and conduct.
With all of these fascinating digressions and related topics, I wonder if the original poster has actually gotten his question(s) answered.
B.
BrennanKG
Member
The problem I see with the assertion that there is some "understood and unspoken" code of conduct regarding gun shop firearms is that individual eperiences tend to prove this untrue.
Personally, mine have ranged from the clerk/salesperson who invites me to dryfire, rack and drop slides as needed, to the clerk/shopmonkey who admonished my wife not to rack the slide on the DW Commander (with an empty mag inserted) because it was a "custom pistol" -his words, not mine- and that it might damage it.
It seems a little arrogant to assert that there is some Golden Rule of firearms handling beyond that of general safety when there are so many differing opinions out there.
Cheers,
B.
Personally, mine have ranged from the clerk/salesperson who invites me to dryfire, rack and drop slides as needed, to the clerk/shopmonkey who admonished my wife not to rack the slide on the DW Commander (with an empty mag inserted) because it was a "custom pistol" -his words, not mine- and that it might damage it.
It seems a little arrogant to assert that there is some Golden Rule of firearms handling beyond that of general safety when there are so many differing opinions out there.
Cheers,
B.
Lupinus
Member
that you should ask before doing something the owner may not want you doing? IE, dry firing, slamming the slide down, etc?
Doesn't seem that hard to me.
Doesn't seem that hard to me.
redneck2
Member
I worked in a gun shop for a while. The things that customers would do was beyond belief.
We had some kids start fooling with a nice Beretta O/U. One of them flicked the lever and the barrels dropped, slamming into the top of a display case. Shattered the glass and dented the end of the barrel. They laughed and walked out. That's why I got a little annoyed about the "grinned and left" comment. I see nothing humorous about damaging another's property.
Some buyers get really cranked about "turn" marks on the cylinder of revolvers. If you use them, they're gonna have turn marks, but we had customers that would refuse to buy a new revolver if it had the marks.
What always gets to me are the number of opinions from people that don't have a clue. They shot a handgun once so they're an expert. I'm not an expert, I don't know. But there are guys that post here that are true experts (like the above post by Zack S).
I'm real leery of taking advice from someone that has 6 posts here. Guys like 1911Tuner have thousands and routinely give advice to guys in the Gunsmithing forum. Him I trust.
Even when confronted by experts with facts, some still argue, hence the "slow learner" moniker.
We had some kids start fooling with a nice Beretta O/U. One of them flicked the lever and the barrels dropped, slamming into the top of a display case. Shattered the glass and dented the end of the barrel. They laughed and walked out. That's why I got a little annoyed about the "grinned and left" comment. I see nothing humorous about damaging another's property.
Some buyers get really cranked about "turn" marks on the cylinder of revolvers. If you use them, they're gonna have turn marks, but we had customers that would refuse to buy a new revolver if it had the marks.
You should maybe start a gun shop. Have some guys come in and treat your inventory like sledge hammers. You'd change your tune.
What always gets to me are the number of opinions from people that don't have a clue. They shot a handgun once so they're an expert. I'm not an expert, I don't know. But there are guys that post here that are true experts (like the above post by Zack S).
I'm real leery of taking advice from someone that has 6 posts here. Guys like 1911Tuner have thousands and routinely give advice to guys in the Gunsmithing forum. Him I trust.
Even when confronted by experts with facts, some still argue, hence the "slow learner" moniker.
BrennanKG
Member
Lupinus,
I am not saying that asking isn't the prudent and polite thing to do.
I am saying given the myriad and conflicting opinions about what is and isn't abusive vs. acceptable, it seems inappropriate to browbeat the oringinal poster, or anyone else, for violating this mythical golden rule of firearm handling.
I'm sure we can all come up with a list of things we feel are and are not acceptable actions to take with another person's firearm. I'm equally confident the lists would vary quite a bit.
V/R,
B.
EddieCoyle
Member
Yup, and what I try to do is to remember everything on any list and then ask before I do it to a gun at a gun shop. You know why? Because that's the way I'd want people to treat my guns if I owned a gun shop. It's common courtesy.
I mean, if there's a chance that doing something to a gun will upset the gun's owner, what's the harm in asking before you do it? If the owner/clerk says, "No" then simply take your business elsewhere.
Before I buy a gun, I like to feel the trigger break, so I ask if I can dry fire. I ask before I field strip, drop the slide, etc. Shop owners often operate on a shoestring budget (this is especially true with the low prices now offered by online retailers). These guys have a lot of money tied up in inventory. If some yahoo somehow defaces a new gun, it hurts the shop owner. When people buy a new gun, they want it to look and act new. I ALWAYS treat a shop's new guns very carefully. You can get away with a bit more on a used gun, but I even treat these with kid gloves.
In part because of the respect I show my local guy, he treats me well. I seldom pay for ear plugs, he'll round ammo purchases down to the nearest dollar, give me good quantity discounts on ammo and - most importantly - I'll get first crack at any used guns he gets in. There are plenty of "regulars" at this shop that do not get the preferential treatment because respect goes both ways.
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