Best AK-47 that isn't a Saiga...

[Ranger30-06]

The Norinco 1911 slides were made out of extremely hard metal, much harder than US made 1911s or any 1911.

I cant speak for the steel quality of a Norinco AK, but I can say that Norinco AKs are very nice AKs

I'd believe it, because they were being made for an extremely strict market as far as quality went and everyone knows that a crap 1911 just won't make it.

The Norincos are different in the sense that they were built for themselves, for their disposable army. They could give a crap on how well the weapon is built, just as long as the rifle lasts as long as the soldier lives.

The main reason people like the Norincos is because they tend to be a little more accurate than other AK's. Why? Because of the softer barrel. It's the same reason stainless steel and non-chrome lines AR-15 barrels are more accurate than military type barrels. They aren't as hard, therefore the accuracy is increased to an extent.

 

[sturmgewehr]

I've always found it interesting that someone would pay $1,200 for a good AR but won't pay $800 for a good AK.

People have it in their heads AK's should be dirt cheap, even if they have properly made and fitted parts and a good finish.

 

[Yo Mama]

The only ones that pretty much have a universal "stay away" vibe are the Century AK's.

Yeah, they suck so bad I love mine! Had to take offense, maybe you never owned one, but Century has a great rep, and great products.

 

[JustinJ]

Yeah, they suck so bad I love mine! Had to take offense, maybe you never owned one, but Century has a great rep, and great products.

No, Century does not have great rep. The quality of their products generally depends on wether or not they build them. I've owned two century AKs and after my first Arsenal i'll never look back. Just because a company has poor assembly methods and quality control does not mean every single one of their products will fail. In fact the large majority probably won't. But to be a quality company with good QC it should be an extremely small number that do.

 

[Rob G]

I've always found it interesting that someone would pay $1,200 for a good AR but won't pay $800 for a good AK.

People have it in their heads AK's should be dirt cheap, even if they have properly made and fitted parts and a good finish.

I'd have to agree with this completely sturmgewehr. I definitely do not regret the money I spent on my SGL31. Although I do wish they were still $400 rifles so that I could have bought two.

 

[Girodin]

but Century has a great rep,

I don't know that I would say that. They have a rep for hit and miss quality. With respect to certain models they have a reputation they earned for butchering them in the assembly process. Their Tantals with the wrong size bore and their grind to fit approach to CETME bolts are two prominent examples of their spotty reputation that they earned.

 

[Yo Mama]

I've owned two century AKs and after my first Arsenal i'll never look back.

And if I could afford a BMW I'd never drive my Hyundia again. I hear your point, but it's apples to oranges.

 

[1fromtheparapet]

My vote would go to the Cugir M10-762 that is currently being imported by M&M Inc. They are built on all new Romanian parts and I have been extremely impressed with mine so far. I would say they are easily on par with a Saiga when it comes to build quality and certainly better than any Century Arms AK.

Picking up my new Cugir M10-762 in a couple hours. Have a big bag full of surplus non-corrosive 7.62x39 and greatly looking forward to heading club-bound after a quick check over of the gun. You know, big dumb male with a new toy Even at my age. Just plain itching. Bringing the black 870 and a bunch of slugs and buckshot (and lots of bottles and cans of soda) to break up the monotony ;-] and a bag full of mags for the G19 to finish off from 20yds anything I miss from 150. I can just tell it’s gonna be a good day...

 

[Ranger30-06]

Picking up my new Cugir M10-762 in a couple hours. Have a big bag full of surplus non-corrosive 7.62x39 and greatly looking forward to heading club-bound after a quick check over of the gun. You know, big dumb male with a new toy Even at my age. Just plain itching. Bringing the black 870 and a bunch of slugs and buckshot (and lots of bottles and cans of soda) to break up the monotony ;-] and a bag full of mags for the G19 to finish off from 20yds anything I miss from 150. I can just tell it’s gonna be a good day...

Make sure you take some pics and let us know how it works out!

 

[ifit]

i would say you made a good choice over the saiga, congrats.

 

[Scott Farkus]

For the stock and the grip, you can put normal wood AK furniture on. The forend however is much different, but I believe there is an adapter that allows the use of normal AK forends.

As for 922r, you are responsible for the compliance. If you want the gun any other way than stock or want to use any American mags, you must switch out so many parts to be American parts. This calculator will tell you how many parts need to be changed out to be legal. 922r Calculator Pretty much, stock it ok. Otherwise, you need to switch out 5 foreign parts with US made parts, as well as using a US made pistol grip. Take a look at the link I gave you; It's pretty straightforward to use. Keep in mind too, that the magazine counts as 3 parts. Hope this helps!

OK, now I'm confused again.

Let's say I go to my LGS or one of the reputable on-line dealers and buy a WASR (since that's the look I like). I can assume it's 922r compliant, right? I don't need to do anything else to it, right?

I don't understand what you mean about using American magazines. If I buy extra magazines and they are made in America, I have to change out other parts? That doesn't make sense. I could understand (but not necessarily agree with) the logic if I was to buy a non-American magazine. What am I missing?

 

[Ranger30-06]

OK, now I'm confused again.

Let's say I go to my LGS or one of the reputable on-line dealers and buy a WASR (since that's the look I like). I can assume it's 922r compliant, right? I don't need to do anything else to it, right?

I don't understand what you mean about using American magazines. If I buy extra magazines and they are made in America, I have to change out other parts? That doesn't make sense. I could understand (but not necessarily agree with) the logic if I was to buy a non-American magazine. What am I missing?

The WASR is already compliant when you buy it from the store, because another company converts it when it comes into the country (it already has American parts in it).


Magazines count as 3 compliance parts when inserted. Therefore, if it's a foreign magazine, it would be 3 parts against the rifles compliance, however with an American magazine, it counts as 3 parts towards 922r compliance.
This is important for some people because sometimes they only switch out a couple parts, then use American mags to make their rifle compliant. In this case, using foreign mags would cause the American-made parts count to drop to low, and make the rifle non compliant.


The WASR is set up so that you can use either foreign mags or American mags and still be legal, so no worries there.


Now here's the kicker for the last part of your question. If you were to buy a Saiga (100% Russian) and put an American magazine into it (3 American parts), you would have an illegal gun.

The reason WHY it would be illegal is because since you aren't using 100% foreign parts on your gun, you also don't have enough American parts on the gun to compensate for the mags. Basically in a nutshell, the gun either needs to be:

A) 100% Foreign
B) Less than 10 Foreign parts

Having a gun with 11 foreign and 5 American parts is illegal.
Having a gun with 300 foreign and 1 American parts is illegal.
Having a gun with 10, 9, 8, 7... foreign parts and 1, 2, 3, 4+ American parts is LEGAL, BECAUSE its less than 10 foreign plus additional American parts.



And you wonder where all of your taxpayer money goes

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

lots of good ones. I like Arsenals.

 

[Scott Farkus]

Now here's the kicker for the last part of your question. If you were to buy a Saiga (100% Russian) and put an American magazine into it (3 American parts), you would have an illegal gun.

The reason WHY it would be illegal is because since you aren't using 100% foreign parts on your gun, you also don't have enough American parts on the gun to compensate for the mags. Basically in a nutshell, the gun either needs to be:

A) 100% Foreign
B) Less than 10 Foreign parts

Thank you, thank you, thank you! THAT'S the part I was missing. Now it makes sense.

But good grief, that's just ridiculous.

Now, dare I ask who checks these things? I do virtually all of my shooting on my private property. Do state game wardens have authority over something like this?

 

[Girodin]

In this case, using foreign mags would cause the American-made parts count to (sic) drop to low, and make the rifle non compliant.

To be technically correct using foreign mags makes the foreign part count to high. The loss of thee use parts in and of itself it a total non issue. The addition of 3 foreign parts that takes you over the limit of ten is the problem.

Now here's the kicker for the last part of your question. If you were to buy a Saiga (100% Russian) and put an American magazine into it (3 American parts), you would have an illegal gun.

The graveman is not whether the magazine is US made or not. It is a matter of how many rounds that magazine holds. A US 10 round mag would not be an issue. A foreign 30 round magazine would be.

B) Less than 10 Foreign parts

Also, it is not less than 10 foreign [countable] parts, it is not more than 10. Said another way it is 10 or less.

Now, dare I ask who checks these things? I do virtually all of my shooting on my private property. Do state game wardens have authority over something like this?

This is a an issue that has been discussed at length else where. There has been at least one 922r conviction I am aware of, a case out of Indiana. The fourth amendment would limit in many circumstances law enforcement's ability to come check you gun for compliance. However, considering it is a felony and it costs so little and is so easy to have a compliant gun, there is IMHO no reason not to just have it be compliant. Cost of a compliant gun, maybe a $150. Cost of defending even a relatively simple misdemeanor charge can be $4-5 just to take it through preliminary matters and to an appeal. A trial could run you $10K easy. A felony trial could be $50K and more complicated ones go to six figures quickly. Cost of conviction, possible incarceration, fines, confiscation of the weapon, attorneys fees, etc. Even if the likely hood of conviction is low the risk versus reward is so skewed it only makes sense to comply.

Yes it is a very stupid, non-nonsensical law that does nothing to serve public safety but it is still the law.

 

[Ignition Override]

Girodin:
The fact that Century was quite aware that many Polish AK-74 Tantals had the wrong size bore-5.56 instead of 5.45-and also that many people had serious problems with their CETMEs from them, really said something.

I read the detailed description of "Sturmgewehr"s problems and those of dozens of other Century customers who bought a 74 or "G-3" CETMEs.

The almost unbelievable normal business operating policies at Century (whether previous or present doesn't matter): their attempts/actions to deceive and cheat large numbers of their customers led to my resolve to instead, buy a Garand from the CMP (instead of a random CETME), and to never even consider Any semi-auto assembled by Century (contractors or not).

To have a reliable military-style carbine in 7.62 NATO/.308, the Spanish FR8 does the job quite well, and the sights are almost identical to those on the CETME "G-3". The ammo used in the FR8 is easy to reload and very durable.

 

[el Godfather]

SAKO.

 

[briansmithwins]

The main reason people like the Norincos is because they tend to be a little more accurate than other AK's. Why? Because of the softer barrel. It's the same reason stainless steel and non-chrome lines AR-15 barrels are more accurate than military type barrels. They aren't as hard, therefore the accuracy is increased to an extent.

What?

That's the first time I've ever heard that idea.

I think people get wrapped up in the whole 'harder steel is better steel' idea, which is just plain wrong on many levels.

Barrel steel is actually pretty soft, exactly as it needs to be. Barrel steel trades hardness for toughness, or the ability to resist cracking. Each time you fire a cartridge, the 50,000PSI gas expands that chamber, trying to rupture it. There are always microcracks in the steel, giving stress a place to concentrate and tear the metal.

Since barrel steel is tough and not hard, it expands elastically with the pressure and shrinks back down as the pressure drops. A file hard barrel might hold together for a few rounds but would likely catastrophically fail during firing. Exactly as happened to the '03 Springfields that had their receivers heat treated wrong.

The Sov (and by extension the chicoms) have historically used soft steels in highly stressed parts in their armaments. This allowed them so have parts that deform under stress but that are tough enough never to crack and fail catastrophically. All without using expensive, hard to heat treat steels, like the Germans and Americans have favored.

Read up on the heat treatments required for a K98k Mauser and M14 rifle sometime. The specs for the heat treatment of those steels are exacting and meticulous.

BSW

 

[Ranger30-06]

What?

That's the first time I've ever heard that idea.

I think people get wrapped up in the whole 'harder steel is better steel' idea, which is just plain wrong on many levels.

Barrel steel is actually pretty soft, exactly as it needs to be. Barrel steel trades hardness for toughness, or the ability to resist cracking. Each time you fire a cartridge, the 50,000PSI gas expands that chamber, trying to rupture it. There are always microcracks in the steel, giving stress a place to concentrate and tear the metal.

Since barrel steel is tough and not hard, it expands elastically with the pressure and shrinks back down as the pressure drops. A file hard barrel might hold together for a few rounds but would likely catastrophically fail during firing. Exactly as happened to the '03 Springfields that had their receivers heat treated wrong.

The Sov (and by extension the chicoms) have historically used soft steels in highly stressed parts in their armaments. This allowed them so have parts that deform under stress but that are tough enough never to crack and fail catastrophically. All without using expensive, hard to heat treat steels, like the Germans and Americans have favored.

Read up on the heat treatments required for a K98k Mauser and M14 rifle sometime. The specs for the heat treatment of those steels are exacting and meticulous.

BSW

My friend, it's not that "harder steel is better" is the problem. The problem is that the the Chinese steel tends to be inconsistent as far as hardness goes and many times it's just straight out too soft. Way to frequently Chinese steel has hard patches and soft sections. Talk to THR member Bubbles, who builds guns, and she will tell you the same exact thing.

Yes, it's true that the other side of the spectrum causes other problems, but that's another discussion not really for this thread. I also realize that in comparison to other steels, barrel steel is relatively soft. The difference between what I'm saying and your saying is that I'm comparing barrels to barrels, while your comparing barrel steel to other steel.

As far as your comment on Russian steel being soft, that sure could be semi-true for the barrels, but there is no way on earth you can prove that a Russian AK (minus the barrel) uses as soft or softer steel than a Chinese AK. It's just not true, because the Russians continually manufacture new steel, whereas the Chinese recycle theirs over and over and over again, causing loss of strength each time.

 

[Circle 10 AK]

I've always like the Waffen Werks AKs. 650 for a 74 from Atlantic. Built on a NDS receiver. Fit and finish is excellent.

 

[Rob G]

I just wanted to correct something that I saw a little earlier in the thread about 922r

The reason WHY it would be illegal is because since you aren't using 100% foreign parts on your gun, you also don't have enough American parts on the gun to compensate for the mags. Basically in a nutshell, the gun either needs to be:

A) 100% Foreign
B) Less than 10 Foreign parts

Even if the gun was 100% foreign it would still be illegal if it had a magazine that held more than ten rounds, a pistol grip, a folding buttstock, or a muzzle device of some kind. If it has any of these features then it must have no more than 10 foreign made parts off of the 922r compliance list.

Those parts are:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

The ones in bold are the parts that AKs typically have.

So in order to use high cap mags, have a pistol grip, etc. you would have to take your AK and remove six of the bold faced parts listed above and replace them with American made ones. I don't know what all the manufactures do but I know that Arsenal replaces: the muzzle attachment, trigger, hammer, disconnector, buttstock, pistol grip, and forearm stock with American made parts which brings their rifle down to 9 foreign made parts making it 922r compliant. It also allows you to use foreign made mags in it.

In the case of a WASR they replace the following parts with american made ones: trigger, hammer, disconnector, pistol grip, gas piston, and muzzle break (if it has one) which brings the foreign parts count to 10, which is legal. It would also allow you to use foreign made mags.

 

[Girodin]

When we are talking about saiga rifles they do not come with some of the bolded parts above. They do not have a pistol grip nor a muzzle attachment. That is why I stated above that they have 14 countable parts.

 

[Mike1234567]

Rob G is right...

Most Saiga firearms need only have 4 foreign parts replaced and 3 of them are in American-made magazines. I believe there are 1 or 2 Saigas that need a 5th part replaced but I can't remember which one(s). If you wish to use foreign-made mags then you'll have to swap 3 more parts in the firearm itself.

 

[Rob G]

When we are talking about saiga rifles they do not come with some of the bolded parts above. They do not have a pistol grip nor a muzzle attachment. That is why I stated above that they have 14 countable parts.

Very true. I wasn't actually offering my comment in response to your post but one that came in before that. I actually found nothing wrong in your post.

As an intersting aside since you mentioned the Saigas, the parts count on them is actually a little weird. Obviously they don't have the pistol grip so -1 part. And none have a muzzle attachment so -1 part. However they do apparently have a sear, I'm guessing it's part of that funky FCG they put in when they move the trigger, so +1 part.

It's not surprising that this 922r stuff is so frustrating right?

 

[Girodin]

Very true. I wasn't actually offering my comment in response to your post . . .

No I didn't think you were. I just figured I would offer some preemptive clarification for anyone reading who might not be as familiar with Aks/saigas. I've read enough 922r threads to know that it can be confusing.

I believe there are 1 or 2 Saigas that need a 5th part replaced but I can't remember which one(s).

Well purportedly the ATF has relatively recently decided to change their count on Saiga shotguns. Also for some time people have debated whether the thread protector is a muzzle attachment. The plus side is that most folks are using US mags on S12s (I wouldn't count on US mags for compliance on most of the rifles, particularly not the x39 guns). Now mind you that a letter like the one in the link posted is not the law but merely how the BATF is choosing to interpret the law at that moment. That is part of why they change.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/72849-parts-count-for-saiga-12-has-changed/