"Best Defense", poor footwork.

[Strykervet]

For those interested, and particularly those that saw it today, on "Best Defense", a SHTF or survival or whatever show on the Outdoor Channel's Wednesday's shooting shows, they showed the guy on there doing CQB drills with an M4 and moving left and right.

They showed a closeup of his feet, one crossing over the other as he moved. This is not considered the correct way to do this drill. You don't cross your feet, you move left and right more like a football player in order not to trip. Since you aren't looking down and urban environments are often cluttered, moving like he was could be a problem.

I guess you can do whatever you want, but this is generally frowned upon in training. Once bullets fly though, some folks tend to jump up and down like they are at a concert while shooting, but nobody really trains to do that. Point is to train to the point of "muscle memory" so you tend to do what you do in training vs. some random movement.

I saw this and thought I'd pass it on since I know several of you in this particular forum probably watch this show.

 

[harrygunner]

I didn't see it, so this is conjecture. Some martial arts students are taught to move that way. Could that be why?

It would be interesting to determine which way lets one cross ground, yet recover from stumbles, handle rough ground, change direction quicker, kick with stability, etc.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I haven't seen the episode either, but get the idea from your description.

I've recently received some instruction in lateral movement from a military trainer and they do indeed train not to cross their feet. When questioned as to why, the response was the same as the OPs'. However, when I proposed the same movement with the weight on the backfoot until the unweighted stepping foot had found a solid foundation, the only response was that that technique was too difficult to teach new recruits.

However, it is a technique of moving based on correct balance and allows more speed in movement while being a more stable shooting platform...and has been taught for thousands of years, as it's roots come from the martial world.

Granted it is a somewhat advanced technique and requires more than superficial understanding of movement, but the benefits of correct movement can be far reaching

 

[Plan2Live]

If you check their website and/or YouTube, you will see that this show has illustrated multiple potential encounters and usually give three different resposnes, each improving on the last until the finally show the Best Defense option. Sort of like Bad, Better, Best. This season, due to the popularity of the preparedness movement, they focused on that topic. The show wasn't initially created in that mindset.

 

[Al Thompson]

movement with the weight on the backfoot until the unweighted stepping foot had found a solid foundation

That was the way Tiger McKee at Shootrite teaches it. Probably due to Tiger having a martial arts back ground.

On a different note, I watched some silly show that had folks in a class almost skipping backwards during a shooting class. Works great if all your violent encounters will be in a gym, shooting range or football field. The real world, not so much.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I was taught a low-center-of-gravity side shuffle. Figure on something that gives you maximum time with two feet on the floor and wide stance; that gives you the best odds of avoiding a fall on uneven ground or with unseen obstacles.

The crossed-leg technique is likely quieter, but that's hardly important in a shooting drill.

 

[RatDrall]

They showed a closeup of his feet, one crossing over the other as he moved. This is not considered the correct way to do this drill. You don't cross your feet, you move left and right more like a football player in order not to trip. Since you aren't looking down and urban environments are often cluttered, moving like he was could be a problem.

Getting stabbed or shot is a worse problem than stumbling.

We were taught to move however we had to move to get out of the way of the blades and sticks and bullets.

The correct way is the one that works when you need it to?

 

[ricco]

Really, there is nothing wrong with crossing your feet. Not crossing your comes from boxing. It's easier to get knocked down from a punch if your feet are crossed. When people get hit they take a step back and if your feet are crossed it's more difficult to do. Outside the world of contact sports it shouldn't cause a problem. There are no absolutes though, some people trip on cracks in a sidewalk.

 

[FadingSwordsman]

Getting stabbed or shot is a worse problem than stumbling.

We were taught to move however we had to move to get out of the way of the blades and sticks and bullets.

The correct way is the one that works when you need it to?

But tripping or stumbling when you're trying to get out of the way of getting shot/stabbed puts you in a very vulnerable position. If I were trying to shoot/stab someone, you bet that they would get shot/stabbed after they tripped or otherwise lost control of their movement. Especially since they can't move nearly as much after tripping.

Don't give any advantages away in a fight, ever. That's how an unfair fight in your favor turns into an unfair fight not in your favor.

 

[RatDrall]

But tripping or stumbling when you're trying to get out of the way of getting shot/stabbed puts you in a very vulnerable position.

Tripping or stumbling can get you out of the way of the bullets/knives. I would prefer stumbling over being shot or stabbed or cut or bludgeoned. YMMV

It seems important to know how to move, once on the ground, to continue evading, regain footing, or attack. Stumbling is always possible, better know how to deal with it as opposed to being shot to avoid stumbling?

Don't give any advantages away in a fight, ever. That's how an unfair fight in your favor turns into an unfair fight not in your favor.

Absolutes have little place when discussing something as dynamic as fighting.

 

[Strykervet]

I haven't seen the episode either, but get the idea from your description.

I've recently received some instruction in lateral movement from a military trainer and they do indeed train not to cross their feet. When questioned as to why, the response was the same as the OPs'. However, when I proposed the same movement with the weight on the backfoot until the unweighted stepping foot had found a solid foundation, the only response was that that technique was too difficult to teach new recruits.

However, it is a technique of moving based on correct balance and allows more speed in movement while being a more stable shooting platform...and has been taught for thousands of years, as it's roots come from the martial world.

Granted it is a somewhat advanced technique and requires more than superficial understanding of movement, but the benefits of correct movement can be far reaching

Yes, I did pick this up in the army. It was basic unit training stuff. And yes, it is too difficult to teach every new guy all this when you have say 100 people on a CQB line.

What I did though, was teach at the Advanced Infantry Skills Center. We did teach more advanced stuff, and I am familiar with what you mention. Balance is important.

You know, we had one guy attached to us that was a martial arts instructor. He spent a whole year in Brazil on tax dollars with the Gracie (sp?) family learning directly from the ground fighting techniques and then brought it back to train new trainers. He gave us a few pearls of wisdom before the unit got deployed. He was pretty bad when he came back, let me tell you. Nobody at Ft. Lewis could take him one on one, for certain.

I was told sidestepping comes from football, but it really comes from basic training, where you get your food tray and walk, side stepping, through the DFAC to get your food. Kind of like Karate Kid and wax-on, wax-off training I guess!

But seriously, if you make a video for all, you should focus on basic doctrine and get that right. This crap is in the MOUT handbook I think, the one the Ranger unit wrote.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Tripping or stumbling can get you out of the way of the bullets/knives

For a moment. But stumbling implies something unexpected; if it takes you out of the line of fire, that would seem to be a chance occurrence, dependent on luck. I'm not familiar with a lot of defense instructors who teach the stumble as a tactic. Even "drop to the ground" seems to be a distant second to "MOVE!"

Perhaps you're correct, and defensive movement instruction should concentrate on stumbling and recovery. Perhaps for an advanced class.

But I'm chiefly concerned with the basics, like trying to move quickly to increase distance or access cover while still keeping sight of my attacker and having a "platform" that's stable enough for me to give accurate fire while moving, and stable enough to avoid stumbling.

Because stumbling will not only slow you down, it might cause injury, an accidental discharge, or even lose you your weapon.

 

[JColdIron]

Crossing over with your feet also limits the ability to change direction easily. If the right foot is crossed over to the left front it you have to reposition your legs to move forward to the right. Time consuming if you are seeking cover.

There can also be issues with placing weight on the heel rather than ball of the foot.

 

[FadingSwordsman]

Tripping or stumbling can get you out of the way of the bullets/knives. I would prefer stumbling over being shot or stabbed or cut or bludgeoned. YMMV

If you're doing it to avoid getting stabbed or bludgeoned, unintentionally, you're about to get stabbed/bludgeoned a lot. There is advanced training on dealing with knives/HtH combat that deals with intentionally falling. Intentionally falling is not stumbling/tripping. How you move will reduce the chances of stumbling/tripping considerably, and in practicing that movement you will trip/stumble. In a normal SD situation, tripping/stumbling WILL cause you to get hurt. It would be a fringe case in which it helps you.

So yeah, I guess my mileage varies.

Absolutes have little place when discussing something as dynamic as fighting.

Then feel free to give as many advantages as you want to anyone you may fight.

I prefer all unfair fights to be in my favor. This is actually one of the few absolutes you'll likely encounter again and again:
Take every advantage you can get in a fight.

 

[RatDrall]

My point is that crossing your feet isn't as big a sin as you guys are making it out to be.

When getting away from where I was standing is my goal, because bullets and knives are coming at my body, I would probably do whatever it takes to get out of the way. It's about priorities. To move slower, because some instructor crippled my speed with a silly list of do's and don'ts, is out of the question (Although my instructor cared enough about me to teach me to do whatever it takes to avoid blades and bullets contacting my body, even if that includes *gasp* crossing my feet while moving).

Textbook rules and absolutes are great for winning internet arguments, not so much elsewhere.

 

[Strykervet]

Crossing over with your feet also limits the ability to change direction easily. If the right foot is crossed over to the left front it you have to reposition your legs to move forward to the right. Time consuming if you are seeking cover.

There can also be issues with placing weight on the heel rather than ball of the foot.

Yeah, you pivot. The proper stance is feet apart, knees bent, sort of hunched over. You want to minimize your sillhouette.

They teach to square off with the target, but I taught a modified version too where the body is slightly angled --to me, this feels more natural and I scored better hits.

 

[9mmepiphany]

On a different note, I watched some silly show that had folks in a class almost skipping backwards during a shooting class.

I've attended that training also, it is based on the same shuffling movement the Military teaches

something that gives you maximum time with two feet on the floor and wide stance...The crossed-leg technique is likely quieter, but that's hardly important in a shooting drill

While the two footed and wider stance has benefits in football lineplay and wrestling, it is overated in a shooting drill also. A good shooter can shoot just as accurately with one foot planted and isn't anymore able to withstand a hit from incoming fire.

There can also be issues with placing weight on the heel rather than ball of the foot.

There is nothing wrong with putting weight on your heel when moving laterally and actually gives greater directional flexibility...it is just a matter of one's understanding of balance and efficient movement.

There is still a school of movement which believes that a move should start with pushing off, rather than sinking first. I've even recently seen a pivoting move taught coming up on the balls of both feet and pivoting on both at the same time...I believe it's roots are from military training

 

[Steel Talon]

Some martial arts students are taught to move that way. Could that be why?

That's only one of 7 learned foot movements.

Two popular foot movements for shooting is a "duck walk" type of forward/rearward stepping. and a left right or right left foot replacement when moving sideways.

Proper technique states, You should never cross your feet! Way to many factors can cause a stumble. However since most shooters discussing this are not active SWAT or Military,just civilians interested in training properly YMMV

 

[Steel Talon]

There is nothing wrong with putting weight on your heel when moving laterally and actually gives greater directional flexibility...it is just a matter of one's understanding of balance and efficient movement.

Spot on...

 

[Strykervet]

My point is that crossing your feet isn't as big a sin as you guys are making it out to be.

When getting away from where I was standing is my goal, because bullets and knives are coming at my body, I would probably do whatever it takes to get out of the way. It's about priorities. To move slower, because some instructor crippled my speed with a silly list of do's and don'ts, is out of the question (Although my instructor cared enough about me to teach me to do whatever it takes to avoid blades and bullets contacting my body, even if that includes *gasp* crossing my feet while moving).

Textbook rules and absolutes are great for winning internet arguments, not so much elsewhere.

Well, it worked good enough to teach in an advanced infantry school SDM course started by guys who had been through several SF shooting courses, including SOTIC and the SF and SEAL sniper schools as well as Marine and Army sniper schools, all Rangers, and all great shots. One guy later went SF, made it, so did one of our students, and my buddy, the guy that ran the shooting course, he was on the phone to get a spot in Delta (which he didn't get then, he got deployed again instead, but maybe he's there now, I don't know, I can't find him). This information can also be found in the Ranger MOUT handbook, which covers CQB, and was Strkyer Bde. doctrine while I was there. All the infantrymen on Ft. Lewis can't be wrong and you and some civilian instructor right.

Like I said, you are looking at your target. Not down. Lots of junk is usually laying around in an urban combat zone. Crossing your feet can most definitely cause you trip, even over your own feet. Especially over your own feet.

And you know what? I speak from experience. When I was a newbie at my first unit, I made this mistake. I almost fell over my own feet with a SAW doing the same close quarter drill he was doing in the show.

Getting out of the way of bullets and knives, huh? When seeking cover, don't sidestep at all! Run and gun or get behind cover! FAST!

Thing is, these are drills. Training. You train to do something the right way, not the wrong way.

 

[9mmepiphany]

All the infantrymen on Ft. Lewis can't be wrong and you and some civilian instructor right.

I would suggest that if you are basing your position on current military training, you could be on shaky ground as it has a history of being behind the curve in small arm techniques, as exemplified by their delayed adoption of repeating rifles after the Civil War, the resistance to a true Intermediate rifle round following WW II, their resistance to using a two handed hold for handguns and optics for CQB

 

[conw]

Getting stabbed or shot is a worse problem than stumbling.

If getting stabbed or shot is a problem, it's an even worse problem when you're on the ground.

Not crossing your comes from boxing. It's easier to get knocked down from a punch if your feet are crossed. When people get hit they take a step back and if your feet are crossed it's more difficult to do. Outside the world of contact sports it shouldn't cause a problem.

Yeah, because a fight where you draw a gun is really unlikely to end in contact. Your gun will either frighten an opponent so bad, or when you get that perfect stopping shot, you'll be just fine. We carry a gun so we don't have to do that crap, right?

Geez...

 

[Strykervet]

I would suggest that if you are basing your position on current military training, you could be on shaky ground as it has a history of being behind the curve in small arm techniques, as exemplified by their delayed adoption of repeating rifles after the Civil War, the resistance to a true Intermediate rifle round following WW II, their resistance to using a two handed hold for handguns and optics for CQB

Trust me, our unit tried to stay AHEAD of the curve. That was why they had this advanced infantry school. Our combatives guy actually lived in Brazil and studied with the Gracie family. Seriously. We did a lot of stuff outside of the box, and a lot of it came from stuff some of the guys did with SF and Ranger units. We were fortunate you could say. And it was the best job I ever had. Some of the brigade command resented us because we came up with our own uniform basically, black shirts with skulls, boonie hats, and unbloused BDU pants --they really hated that, and could do whatever we wanted when it came to getting gear and ranges, and we worked odd times. I have a training disc, mostly on SDM stuff, and I wish I could show it on here but it is big. Some of it also violates rules, as naked ladies were included in the presentation in order to make sure the guys stayed awake. I told you we thought outside the box.

CQB was included in the SDM training, but not a whole lot of it. We did enough to show how to incorporate it into their other training, which was up to date at the time. They made their own changes to the Ranger doctrine too, things like stack order and where the SAW gunner goes and who breaches the door and stuff.

CQB and MOUT training is fluid, I agree, but it also has some fundamental things to it. Not tripping, not being in fatal funnels, not exposing yourself, etc. I mean, you could go deeper --training also includes stepping deliberately high. Not a goose step or anything ridiculous, but not dragging your feet like some people do. Lots of details, and these kinds of missions are always rehearsed when possible, because they are so dangerous and so much can go wrong. That is why you have a lot of particular standard movements that you can apply in a lot of different situations in different ways.

I doubt anybody on here is training to be a doorkicker, but the step thing is sort of a fundamental, and the close up of him doing it wrong just sort of stared out at me.

 

[ricco]

If getting stabbed or shot is a problem, it's an even worse problem when you're on the ground.



Yeah, because a fight where you draw a gun is really unlikely to end in contact. Your gun will either frighten an opponent so bad, or when you get that perfect stopping shot, you'll be just fine. We carry a gun so we don't have to do that crap, right?

Geez...

Cross stepping is is just one form of movement and is rarely used for more 1 or 2 steps. Stepping in front and behind is the footwork used in classic fencing techniques such as Inquartata and Passata Sotto. These techniques are part of James Keating's Bowie Knife program. These techniques have also been incorporated into the Suarez gunfighting curriculum, replacing the sword with the pistol. The classic technique has been modified slightly because shooting stances and fencing stances are different. I have used Inquartata successfully in FOF training numerous times, several times using Inquartata as a starting position for the Pekiti Take Off. I have also trained in Shorin Ryu Karate and we used cross stepping in a much tighter and shorter step as a form of movement. I have used this while sparring and have never tripped or fallen. Footwork is a large part of armed and unarmed training and should be practiced as such.

 

[SentinelStrategic]

I think that it's splitting hairs. It's a minor issue that really can be read any way you want to. I'm more annoyed by the constant overuse of this "balance of speed and precision" drill by Rob Pincus on that TV show. It's like they have to do it EVERY episode. Stop already!! We get it- it's Rob's drill that he's trying to market.

On a different note, I watched some silly show that had folks in a class almost skipping backwards during a shooting class. Works great if all your violent encounters will be in a gym, shooting range or football field. The real world, not so much.

That's lunacy. I'm personally under the belief that you should never walk backward while shooting. Lots of training groups are also stressing this more and more.