Bill of sale/contract when selling guns?

[grampajack]

When you sell a gun to a private party, do you require them to sign anything? If so, what do you use? i.e. standard form from internet, handwritten bill of sale, etc.

What are the opinions of the group? Can a bill of sale/contract help keep you out of trouble, or could it potentially create more problems than it solves?

If you think it's a good idea, what liabilities should it cover?

Injury (like a kaboom or AD)​

Illegal use (like in a shooting)​

Straw purchase​

The buyer breaking it and asking for their money back​

P.S. This is solely regarding selling a gun. When I purchase a used gun, I just accept that it's buyer beware, all sales final, etc. I wouldn't mind covering this area, as well, but not until we have first discussed the liability inherent to selling a gun.

 

[orionengnr]

Never have.
I use the Texas CHL forum and deal with (buy from/sell to) fellow CHL holders.
Oops, just remembered.. it is now a "LTC" instead of a "CHL". Oh well, the forum is still named CHL.

 

[Jeff H]

I've never sold any guns- this is why my safe is pretty full. If I was to sell one, I would make sure there was a receipt to document the sale but that is about it.

 

[Red Wind]

Never. Cash for gun and walk away. At least a dozen times since can't remember! Just ask, "are you a Florida resident and legal?"

That is it.

 

[Nebraska12]

I have. Has pretty basic info: Names, city of residence, SN# make and model, verify purchase permit (required in Nebraska) but don't record it, and verify ID, also not recorded. I include a basic statement "required permits verified, in person, by those listed above"...or something like that. More to cover my arse than anything else. I do nothing with it, but file it away.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[grampajack]

I have. Has pretty basic info: Names, city of residence, SN# make and model, verify purchase permit (required in Nebraska) but don't record it, and verify ID, also not recorded. I include a basic statement "required permits verified, in person, by those listed above"...or something like that. More to cover my arse than anything else. I do nothing with it, but file it away.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

That's kind of where I'm headed. Essentially, I want it documented that the gun changed hands on this date and went to this person. That way should the gun ever turn up somewhere, uh...that it's not supposed to be, I would have pretty convincing evidence to say I didn't have it at the time.

Believe it or not, this has actually been relevant before. There was even a case where someone bought a gun online, then stole the seller's identity, and framed him for the crime by using his ID to place him near the murder scene. So the police trace the gun back to the seller, then found out his ID had been in the area. Can't remember all the details, but the only thing that saved the seller was he had actually kept a really good record and was able to tell the police exactly who he had sold the gun to.

 

[Elkins45]

The one person on my THR ignore list ended up there because of some nasty unsolicited PMs on this very topic. This is one of the things that the chest-thumping crowd really gravitates to. Like wanting to have some sort of a record documenting when a gun changed hands somehow makes you an enemy of the 2nd amendment.

I think knowing the name of the person you sold a gun to is a good idea, especially if there's a 4473 on that gun with your name on it. Opinions vary--often strongly.

 

[Red Wind]

I think knowing the name of the person you sold a gun to is a good idea, especially if there's a 4473 on that gun with your name on it. Opinions vary--often strongly.
__________________

Yeah. Those pesky opinions sure do vary! That's America! The poll speaks volumes so far. Sorry.

 

[Jim K]

If you bought a gun from a dealer, or if you bought a gun from a third party who knows your name, the gun can be traced to you. You can't (or shouldn't be) convicted of any misuse of the gun after you sell it, but it sure helps to have a name and address of the person you sold the gun to.

I know some purists who say they don't care who they sell to, and that it is up to the police to prove that they committed a crime with the gun, but believe me, things can get rough for a previous owner who either violated the law in selling the gun or who has no record of the buyer. I know all the lawyer types will talk about rights, and remaining silent and all that. But if you sell a gun to someone who commits a high profile crime with it, you will not like the results even if you aren't arrested or never serve time.

My recommendations: Obey the law; if the law says no private sales then go the dealer route. If private sales are legal, then have the buyer sign some kind of receipt/transfer form and check his/her ID, noting the information. Keep that in a permanent file.

Jim

 

[DeepSouth]

Nope, never have.

I do keep their phone number if I have it (which I normally do) and I'll wright down the tag number on my records I keep when I do sell. In one case the guy communicated by email, I printed them off and kept them to.

Basically, I keep all information the individual gives me, but I ask for nothing.
That way I have something to show I did sell it, and in most cases there'd be enough information for Leo to follow to the person with some work.

It keeps everyone happy, the paranoidguy thinks I know nothing, but I do have information. I suppose if someone really wanted they could get a "burner phone" and put a old tag on a borrowed car or some nonsense, but in all probability I'll have enough information to get those to whom it may concern pointed in the right direction, and more importantly provide evidence that I did sell the gun.

I'll add, I would sign a bill of sell if asked, but I'd probably wouldn't wright down my own name unless I had been asked for ID.

 

[bikemutt]

I used to keep a record but now that WA requires all sales to be completed at an FFL dealer, I let them worry about the record keeping. I do note the date and dealer where transfer occurred in my own records, if there's ever a question the questioner can pore over the dealer's bound book.

 

[Elkins45]

Yeah. Those pesky opinions sure do vary! That's America! The poll speaks volumes so far. Sorry.

What are you apologizing for? No skin off my nose if you end up in the jackpot somehow.

What volumes do the poll results speak? Why do I care what the poll results say? "Only Real Men have the courage to sell guns to strangers" --that about sum it up?

 

[Red Wind]

Good to know I wasn't the one on your ignore list! Test over. Relax and enjoy a Kentucky Bourbon!

 

[Arizona_Mike]

When I deposit a check I ask for a receipt. When I take money out of my account I don't.
If I'm selling a gun for cash the same applies.

Mike

 

[deadin]

I have C&R License (FFL03) so if I buy or sell a C&R I need name & address or license number for C&R's. Due to WA State law all modern (non C&R/Antique) have to go through an FFL01, so there is a record there. I don't worry about Antiques.

 

[Predator55]

Whenever I have sold a gun it's always with a receipt which lists the buyers info. Full name, address, DOB and FOID number/drivers license and a description of the weapon. Make sure to date the receipt and the buyers signature. Not a lawyer but I would think your covered.

 

[Elkins45]

All my recent gun sales have been through Armslist. What I have been doing is just printing out the Armslist ad and writing the name and date of the sale on it. I don't actually make the buyer sign a receipt but I do make them show me some sort of ID that verifies they are a KY resident and that has their name on it.

 

[guyfromohio]

If the speed limit is 65, do we have an obligation to drive 50? Follow the laws of your state.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

what about bill of sale when buying?
Bill of sale for items of some value -- gun, utility trailer, guitar, stereo, Xbox -- when such items are commonly stolen and fenced, could be a protection for the buyer, if the buyer were ever suspected of not acquiring the item legally.

(At twelve I was scared by the Twilight Zone episode where Santa (Art Carney) was handing out gifts and the cops demended to see receipts. Once I was out of the store with a purchase and it didn't break within a week, I never thought to keep receipts to prove I had bought stuff.)

 

[Devonai]

When I lived in New Hampshire, I sold a pistol to a private party. During the initial e-mails, I told him I'd want to photocopy his drivers license, and that I would offer a copy of mine. He agreed. It seemed like a simple CYA decision. If he had declined, so would have I. I didn't need the extra $50 over what a dealer offered me that bad.

If the law does not require it, it's up to the involved parties. Do what you think best serves your interest.

Now that I live in Connecticut, we need State Police approval for private sales. I don't like it, but (for now) it's one phone call and costs nothing. Absent that requirement, I would still want a record for my archives.

 

[bikemutt]

Now that I live in Connecticut, we need State Police approval for private sales. I don't like it, but (for now) it's one phone call and costs nothing. Absent that requirement, I would still want a record for my archives.

Devonai,

Now that we in WA have to employ an FFL dealer to lawfully complete a private sale, I'm curious how you all do a private sale with a phone call to State Police? Sounds as if that's a lot easier than what we have to do. Is there a cost? Do you have to collect personally identifying information about the buyer (DOB, DL#, SS# etc)?

Thanks

 

[Devonai]

I haven't done it in several years, but the buyer and seller would fill out a DPS Form 3 in quintuplicate, including drivers license or pistol permit number, address, weapon info, etc. Then DPS is called and the relevant info is relayed. This will either generate a confirmation number, which is written on the form, or a denial if either party is ineligible.

Once the confirmation number is recorded and the completed forms ready, one copy goes to DPS, one each to buyer and seller, and one copy each goes to the local police department of the buyer and seller. If the town of either is covered by Resident State Troopers, the additional form is not necessary.

Filling out the forms is the most time consuming part of the process. The most I ever spent on the phone with DPS was ten minutes, including hold time. There is no cost to either party.

 

[Ryanxia]

I look at their ID to make sure they are same State resident, shake hands and call it a day. As do many others I know. Perfectly legal and our State is one of the safest. ATF hates it though.

At times in the past I've had people ask me to write them a Bill of Sale, I just tell them to write one up with whatever information they want on it and I will sign it. All but one have been to lazy to do it haha.

 

[il.bill]

When you sell a gun to a private party, do you require them to sign anything? If so, what do you use? i.e. standard form from internet, handwritten bill of sale, etc.

... .

I always have written up a Bill of Sale for every private firearm transaction, whether buying or selling.

But then - I live in Illinois and state law says I have to retain the relevant information on every firearm sold for a period of ten years.

 

[badkarmamib]

I haven't always done it, but I do now. If something were to happen 3 owners from now, I want proof that the firearm that is registered to me hasn't been in my possession for years. If a trace ever gets run with the current owner, they now have proof that they didn't steal it. Both names, both signatures, addresses or at least city of residence, serial number, and we each get a copy. I use a carbon-copy bill of sale book I picked up years ago for doing contracting work. A few dollars for a convenient record.