Tentative bill of sale, any thoughts?

[grampajack]

Again, I want to emphasize that this thread is specifically for those who use a bill of sale, or might do so from now on, to discuss exactly how we would word it. So this is my draft, and I hope that others will submit their own ideas and explain their reasoning behind them.

I posted this in the last thread, but I guess the legal forum doesn't get much traffic. This is the bill of sale form I've come up with. I was hoping to get some thoughts on it. Have I made any legal errors? Should anything be added or changed?



My first objective was to clearly establish that the gun had been sold, and to whom. I didn't want the person's life history, just who they were and the fact that they bought the gun. My second objective was to cover liability, mainly by establishing that I would not knowingly sell a gun to a felon or a straw purchaser. At the very least, this establishes that I asked them those questions, and they told me they were legal. So if they get up on the witness stand and claim I was party to an illegal sale, I will be able to offer evidence that they lied and I had no way of knowing they were not legal to own firearms.

Another aspect of liability I wanted to cover was someone hurting themselves with the gun by doing something stupid, then trying to say I knowingly sold them a dangerous gun. For example, someone might say "there was a crack in the barrel when I bought it, but grampajack swore it was safe." I'll have their signature saying they inspected the gun and found no flaws with it. This would also help to prevent someone from breaking the gun during shadetree gumsmithing, then trying to get a refund.

Well, that's my reasoning. What do you think?

 

[heyjoe]

if it were me and i was this concerned over selling a firearms face to face i would spend the $25 plus and use an FFL

 

[GRIZ22]

Individual sued over selling an unsafe gun? I'm sure it's happened somewhere but I've never heard of it.

 

[grampajack]

if it were me and i was this concerned over selling a firearms face to face i would spend the $25 plus and use an FFL

It will probably come to that before long.

 

[Twiki357]

Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjoe View Post
if it were me and i was this concerned over selling a firearms face to face i would spend the $25 plus and use an FFL
It will probably come to that before long.

It already has is some states.

 

[cjwils]

If I was the buyer, I would never agree to this. The language seems to allow the seller to sell something that the seller knows is unsafe or not functional and get away with no responsibility. All responsibility for safety and functionality is on the buyer, regardless of what the seller knows.

 

[gc70]

There are dozens of Bill of Sale forms available through even the most cursory internet search. Pick one you like and avoid the unnecessary effort of reinvention.

 

[Old Shooter]

How about...I, owner_____, sell to buyer______ a (make and model name, serial number) for the sum of $____.

Date:______

Or.. Just gimme the money honey and the gun is yours

I don't believe the exaggerated bill of sale would absolve anyone from anything if the weapon was at some point used in a bad scenario.

And if the gun were to blow up or otherwise malfunction, in regards to that bill of sale..that's what lawyers are for

I do like to have a record of when and to whom I sell a gun to, but lately I have decided to sell any guns on consignment thru a LGS and avoid the hassle.

 

[cc-hangfire]

As far as your stated concerns, your bill of sale appears to cover them IMHO.

I have used similar language in a bill of sale for selling a few guns in the past myself. I have become more cautious in the past year, & now only sell to either one of my LGS's or individuals I know personally. I don't get as much money for the the few guns I sell now, but I sleep better.

It's a personal choice that everyone has to make for themselves.

 

[ilbob]

I think that it is highly unlikely that the buyer would be in a position to inspect the firearm in such a way as to be able to actually fulfill the contract unless the guy was a gunsmith and had test fired it. That would appear to me to make the contract hard to enforce.

What is it you are trying to do? You can't escape liability for selling someone a piece of junk you know does not work if you represent it as functional even if the guy signs his life away on it.

I would not sign something like this. If someone asked me to I would walk away becasue I would suspect the guy is up to something.

 

[larryh1108]

I agree with the others.... too much for a simple sale.
If you are that worried then list the names, date and gun info (Make, Model, serial#, caliber) If it is a state with a magazine count limit, list the mag capacity.

Where the buyer signs have it say that by his signature, he is stating that it is legal for him to buy and possess this item. As works for cars costing tens of thousands of dollars, simply state "Sold As Is As Shown".

Bills of sales do not scare or deter me but I would not sign what you posted for the many reasons stated. Simple is best.

 

[il.bill]

I use a Bill of Sale for EVERY firearm I personally purchase or sell (well - I do live in Illinois), but as a Buyer I could only sign yours if you let me run 50-100 rounds through the firearm. How else would I be able to tell that it is in safe working order and that I am fully satisfied with the functional condition as you have it written?

 

[grampajack]

I use a Bill of Sale for EVERY firearm I personally purchase or sell (well - I do live in Illinois), but as a Buyer I could only sign yours if you let me run 50-100 rounds through the firearm. How else would I be able to tell that it is in safe working order and that I am fully satisfied with the functional condition as you have it written?

I never sell a gun without offering to let the guy shoot it. He's welcome to shoot it to his heart's content, so long as he provides the ammo and pays the range fee. I think one person has actually taken me up on it in the last five years.

I don't sell people anything less than perfect guns. If anything were to happen, it would be their fault, no doubt about it. And seeing all these kabooms lately doesn't inspire confidence. In my opinion, this upswing in kabooms is due to shadetree gunsmithing and reloads. And sometimes people get hurt pretty bad, so it's a scenario where lots of people might try to sue. And if they try to make up a fish story about how the gun was damaged when they bought it, about how I "knowingly sold them a dangerous gun," then I'll have their signature to contradict that. Basically they're agreeing that they won't go out and do stupid stuff, then try to sue me.

 

[bearcreek]

Again, I want to emphasize that this thread is specifically for those who use a bill of sale,

Well, that's my reasoning. What do you think?

I would never use or consider signing a bill of sale so I realize this thread is not for me. I did wonder though, have you ever heard of a bill of sale being helpful in any way to anyone, either buyer or seller, at any time in a private sale?

 

[grampajack]

I would never use or consider signing a bill of sale so I realize this thread is not for me. I did wonder though, have you ever heard of a bill of sale being helpful in any way to anyone, either buyer or seller, at any time in a private sale?

Oh, yes, absolutely! As I said in the last thread, I know of at least one guy who didn't go to prison for murder because he had kept a bill of sale. Obviously this is an extreme case, but there are plenty of times when bills of sale, or at least the memory of the seller, have prevented much grief and possibly some jail time, or at least a trial.

 

[bearcreek]

Oh, yes, absolutely! As I said in the last thread, I know of at least one guy who didn't go to prison for murder because he had kept a bill of sale. Obviously this is an extreme case, but there are plenty of times when bills of sale, or at least the memory of the seller, have prevented much grief and possibly some jail time, or at least a trial.

Is there a link with info on that you could provide?

 

[grampajack]

Is there a link with info on that you could provide?

Nope, but I'm sure Google will find you something. I watch a lot of crime shows, and it does actually come up from time to time. Like I said, it would amaze you how the police can track down a gun sold 10 times in the last twenty years. I saw one, they found a gun on the side of the highway, it somehow got cross referenced to a murder based on caliber, and based on some detective's gut feeling they matched it and tracked down the killer based on people's memory alone. I was utterly stunned. All I can say is that the people in the middle of the chain are just darn lucky that they had good memories. As already said, you don't want the buck to stop with you just because you can't remember the guy's name and phone number.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Is there a link with info on that you could provide?

Nope, but I'm sure Google will find you something.....

Wrong answer, I'm afraid.

If someone makes a claim it's up to him to provide the evidence/documentation to back it up. "I read somewhere", "Someone told me", "I saw it on TV" are all worthless as evidence. Assertions based on such should not be accepted as fact.

As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

 

[bearcreek]

I watch a lot of crime shows, and it does actually come up from time to time.

Crime shows? Really? I'm sorry man but that's one of the very worst if not the worst sources of information on this subject that you could possibly find. I hope you're at least talking about the "non" fiction ones? Those might be a tiny bit better, although not by much.

 

[grampajack]

To be fair, this was what we discussed in the last thread. And what I specifically said we weren't discussing in this one. And it's not my job to do your research for you or justify myself to you. From what I've seen, it's a good idea to keep track of who you sell guns to. If you don't agree, then that's your prerogative.

Again, this thread is for those who use a bill of sale and are interested in the precise language and layout. If you want to debate the validity of the idea, then that's what the last thread is for. I was being courteous to even answer you in the first place, especially after you were discourteous enough to take this thread in the specific direction I said I didn't want to go.

 

[grampajack]

Crime shows? Really? I'm sorry man but that's one of the very worst if not the worst sources of information on this subject that you could possibly find. I hope you're at least talking about the "non" fiction ones? Those might be a tiny bit better, although not by much.

So when a veteran detective goes on national TV and describes in detail how he used police resources to track down a gun's owner through multiple private sales over a period of a decade, that's the worst source of information you can get? Give me a break.

 

[grampajack]

I would never use or consider signing a bill of sale so I realize this thread is not for me. I did wonder though, have you ever heard of a bill of sale being helpful in any way to anyone, either buyer or seller, at any time in a private sale?

BTW, this is what you asked. And I answered your question.

 

[Spats McGee]

Let's hold up for a minute.

grampajack, earlier in this thread, you said:

I would never use or consider signing a bill of sale so I realize this thread is not for me. I did wonder though, have you ever heard of a bill of sale being helpful in any way to anyone, either buyer or seller, at any time in a private sale?

Oh, yes, absolutely! As I said in the last thread, I know of at least one guy who didn't go to prison for murder because he had kept a bill of sale. Obviously this is an extreme case, but there are plenty of times when bills of sale, or at least the memory of the seller, have prevented much grief and possibly some jail time, or at least a trial.

(Emphasis supplied by me.)

You've been asked to provide some evidence of those factual claims.

Is there a link with info on that you could provide?

Another moderator even weighed in:

Is there a link with info on that you could provide?

Wrong answer, I'm afraid.

If someone makes a claim it's up to him to provide the evidence/documentation to back it up. "I read somewhere", "Someone told me", "I saw it on TV" are all worthless as evidence. Assertions based on such should not be accepted as fact.

As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

You've made a factual claim. Specifically, you've claimed that you "know of at least one guy who didn't go to prison for murder because he had kept a bill of sale." You've been asked to back that up with some kind of evidence, even something as simple as a link to a news story. You've declined to provide any such evidence, claiming that:

. . . .it's not my job to do your research for you or justify myself to you. . . . .

Actually, it is. Around here, and in particularly in Legal, the one who makes a factual claim can be, an often is, expected to provide the evidence for that. Remember, you said that you know of this one guy out there somewhere who stayed out of prison because of a bill of sale. You made the claim, you have the information necessary to find this story.

If you don't feel any need to back up your claims, I won't feel any need to believe them.

For future reference, if you make any claims about the law, we can and probably will expect you to back those up with citations to proper legal authority.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...it's not my job to do your research for you or justify myself to you.....

You're relying on the "burden of proof fallacy."

1. Burden of proof fallacy:

   ...The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, or disinclination, to disprove a claim does not render that claim valid, nor give it any credence whatsoever....

   
   
2. Burden of proof fallacy:

   ...The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. ....

   
   
3. Burden of proof fallacy:

   ...Burden of Proof is a fallacy in which the burden of proof is placed on the wrong side. Another version occurs when a lack of evidence for side A is taken to be evidence for side B in cases in which the burden of proof actually rests on side B. A common name for this is an Appeal to Ignorance....

So it's not our research. It's your research.

....So when a veteran detective goes on national TV and describes in detail how he used police resources to track down a gun's owner through multiple private sales over a period of a decade, that's the worst source of information you can get?

Phooey! Did this actually happen? Was it actually as you've described it?

 

[grampajack]

Look, the guy asked if I had heard of something. Not if I had proof. From the way he phrased his question, he gave no indication that he was going to turn this into a big freaking hissy fit. This is childish and ridiculous. And why are the moderators helping him sideline a thread? Isn't it your job to make sure threads stay on topic?

There's another thread to debate the validity of using a bill of sale, and this is not that thread. Furthermore, I don't have to prove anything to justify myself to anyone. I've seen several well documented cases where knowledge of the buyer many years later has saved a seller. That's why I'm choosing to use a bill of sale from now on. If you think I'm lying, then you don't have to worry about it, so you needn't be in this thread in the first place. Unless you're just here to give me grief for your own gratification? In which case that's called trolling.

Mods, feel free to delete anything you feel is an substantiated claim. It's not the purpose of this thread anyway. I should have just told him to go post it in the other thread, but I don't like being a jerk like that. I didn't realize he was going to turn this into a whole thing. BUT, if you do, then please tell everyone to stay on topic.