Buddy finally got his Springfield Victory AR set up. Not good.

[MR WICK]

My buddy owns a Springfield Victory AR 15 shooting 223, 55 grain ammo. He has a Harris Bipod, Vortex Venom Scope, and Geissele 2 Stage Trigger.

He didn't want to buy a 223 Long Range Precision Rifle so he turned his Vistory into one.

Dialed in beautifully at 25 and 50 yards. 75 and 100 yards it had decent groupings.

After 100 yards is was pretty much a crap shoot. At 200 yards it was useless.

I have been shooting my CZ 527 everyday and can do tight groupings at 400 yards.

No matter what I did with his rifle at 200 yards it stunk.

What could be the reason for this?

Thanks All.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

What is the barrel twist on those? 55gr may be light for it.

Was it one hole at 25 and 50?

 

[Chuck R.]

First define "useless", what size groups?
Then, what were the conditions? Wind??
Lastly 55 grain .223, covers a boatload of ground quality wise, so what ammo?

I've seen standard AR15's do 1.5-2.5 MOA at 100yds with 55 FMJ for 5 rounds. Your average 55 FMJ, is great for plinking, but not much else. At 200, it's completely plausible for 2.5MOA ammo with a little help from conditions, turn into 6"+ groups. Useless for a varmint/precision rifle, but still minute of man.

 

[MR WICK]

Winchester 223, 55 grain, FMJ.

This first two pictures were his best at 150 yards.

The third picture is my CZ at 300 yards.

What should the rifle be able to do?

 

[Walkalong]

Winchester 223, 55 grain, FMJ.

Garbage in, garbage out. Buy quality ammo with good bullets.

 

[md7]

55 gr fmj is understood to be good training ammo, and while usable, not the generally considered to be the most accurate. Of course, every barrel is a law unto itself to some degree and some do better with it than others.

You mentioned your friend is trying to set up a precision rig. Part of that equation is selecting ammo that’s capable. Maybe he could look into something like Sierra Matchkings or similar in the 60’s to 70’s grain weight class. See if that helps.

If it doesn’t, then maybe look at the optic/mount to ensure it’s good to go, or possibly check the torque on the barrel nut. I’ve heard that a barrel nut that’s not properly torqued may cause accuracy issues.

Hopefully other THR members more knowledgeable than myself on AR building/trouble shooting could weigh in on that. But that’s kind of my thinking here.

 

[CapnMac]

The Vortex introduces several variables into this equation.

But, the biggest may be that per SAI, the Victor is a 1:8 barrel--so you might need to run some 65 or 72 grain rounds through it to see if that improves things. As noted above, the 55gr rounds may be too light.

Now, assuming the above results are factory ammo, the other issue may be that the rifle "likes" a different brand of ammo. My A2 hates American Eagle (steel case S& groups better); the 6920 runs fine with it. The A2 seems to have a sweet spot for either varmint rounds or WWB 55 gr.

YMMV

 

[JDGray]

My first AR wouldn’t shoot 2” at 100 yards with Win 55gr fmj. Loaded up some Sierra 60gr, and it was sub moa.

 

[Varminterror]

He didn't want to buy a 223 Long Range Precision Rifle so he turned his Vistory into one.

Unless he replaced the barrel and decided to use better bullets, he didn’t… putting a bipod and a high magnification scope onto a Saint doesn’t change the rifle, any more than putting a collar on a tiger changes its stripes.

Dialed in beautifully at 25 and 50 yards. 75 and 100 yards it had decent groupings.

After 100 yards is was pretty much a crap shoot. At 200 yards it was useless.

Shooter issue.

If it’s grouping well at 100, then with 55grn bullets, it’ll make it to 500 before the wheels will wobble, typically even farther.

 

[C-grunt]

The vertical dispersion of the group has me thinking something else might be going on since you said it shot decent at 100 yards. Go over everything and make sure everything is tight and correct.

How good of a shooter is your friend? How does it shoot when you shoot it? What were the group sizes at the closer ranges?

In the end it could be that the rifle doesnt like that ammo. Or this is another case of ARs coming out of Springfield Armory with issues.

 

[MR WICK]

You guys are all awesome. Thank you so much.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Sounds like the ammo isnt playing nice with the twist rate. I would try some heavier bullets. Probably wouldn't hurt to check the barrel nut torque either.

 

[bfoosh006]

In my experience, and over decades, Winc. .223 / 5.56 has consistently produced horrible groups out of many different AR's.

Try another brand.

 

[nipprdog]

In my experience, and over decades, Winc. .223 / 5.56 has consistently produced horrible groups out of many different AR's.

Try another brand.

same here. the only winchester ammo I'd buy now is shotgun ammo.

 

[303 hunter]

My Black Hole Weaponry 1-8 barreled AR hated 55 grain bullets of any kind, but would shoot 69-77 grain bullets extremely well.

I was recently gifted a Bear Creek 18” 1-8 barrel that the previous owner said had bad accuracy. He’d been shooting Winchester white box ammo. It’s been moa for me out to 300 yards using Sierra 77 grain Matchking reloads. Try some heavier bullets with the 1-8 twist rate.

 

[MR WICK]

Believe it or not I shoot Freedom Munitions 223, 56 grain, reloads. I think I have posted this before but these are my groupings at 300 yards.

I figured since his Winchester was new it would shoot better.

 

[Captcurt]

Is your buddy or you, for that matter, proficient with a bi-pod? It took several trips to the range and some coaching from a friend before I could shoot as well as I could off of bags. Plus, you might need heavier bullets like Nightlord and others noted.

 

[MR WICK]

I have a friend that is an Ex-Army Ranger Sniper.

I was an absolute terrible shot before he came out to help me. He taught me proper position. I wasn't shooting from the right position. He told me my bipod was on backwards. Trigger control. Proper breathing techniques and MAO corrections. I now shoot 200% better. However, I shoot every single day. I also read Ryan Cleckner's book.

Maybe my buddy just needs more practice. I'm trying to pass on to him what I learned.

 

[Varminterror]

If you’re 30 seconds into reacquiring targets, you need to spend a lot more time learning from your sniper buddy.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, and it wasn’t built without purposeful design. Time behind the gun in purposeful practice is the only way to improve.

 

[Walkalong]

Yep, there is no substitute for trigger time, well, except for quality trigger time, muscle memory and all that.

 

[MR WICK]

If you’re 30 seconds into reacquiring targets, you need to spend a lot more time learning from your sniper buddy.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, and it wasn’t built without purposeful design. Time behind the gun in purposeful practice is the only way to improve.

No. Not to reaquire the target. To line up my shot, get the reticule just where I want it, rest my rifle properly against my shoulder, exhale my breath, and gently squeeze the trigger. That's the 30 seconds.

But the rifle does jump.

 

[Skylerbone]

To me 30 seconds is far too much time to fuss, allowing fatigue to set in before the shot. My time behind the scope before a shot is probably 1/3 that or less. Watch conditions, cheek placement, target acquisition, squeeze.

 

[d2wing]

Practice is great but practicing without correction doesn't help. Get the help of someone professionally trained or certified instructor. Check that the rifle is in spec, make sure the scope is not canted and is solidly mounted. Do ammo tests. Maybe the gun just won't shoot. I have built 3 Del-tons that all shoot sub MOA and a PSA that did after correcting some bad parts. Key is that the bolt seats properly and moves freely.
Do you have a quality scope and mounts?

 

[Varminterror]

No. Not to reaquire the target. To line up my shot, get the reticule just where I want it, rest my rifle properly against my shoulder, exhale my breath, and gently squeeze the trigger. That's the 30 seconds.

But the rifle does jump.

Same same… that process from a bench or prone should be <5 seconds for ~1-2moa targets at 300yrds. If you’re breaking your shoulder connection during recoil, and losing the target from view in your scope, your support technique and recoil management is completely busted.

You need training and trigger time. If you’re shooting every day, then devise proper practice methodologies to improve your positional stability, economy of movement, and recoil management. That CZ 223 at 300yrds shooting ~1.5moa should easily rip off far faster than every 30 seconds. If you WANT to shoot slowly, great, but if you’re trying to shoot quickly and stuck at 30 second splits, the technique is busted.

 

[MR WICK]

Same same… that process from a bench or prone should be <5 seconds for ~1-2moa targets at 300yrds. If you’re breaking your shoulder connection during recoil, and losing the target from view in your scope, your support technique and recoil management is completely busted.

You need training and trigger time. If you’re shooting every day, then devise proper practice methodologies to improve your positional stability, economy of movement, and recoil management. That CZ 223 at 300yrds shooting ~1.5moa should easily rip off far faster than every 30 seconds. If you WANT to shoot slowly, great, but if you’re trying to shoot quickly and stuck at 30 second splits, the technique is busted.

I will look into that for sure. Going to read Cleckner's book too.