Bullet type matters?

[Riomouse911]

Shooting is a bit of science, a bit of magic, a bit of luck…and a lot of effort. There really is no silver bullet out there to quickly answer all your needs without a TON of trial and error.

Plus, with every shot fired a barrel slightly deteriorates, so the perfect load for your gun-barrel combo may be there for 100 shots, 1000 shots or 10 shots. Only your gun and your load can determine how long the good times last .

This is what makes shooting a lifelong pursuit for so many of us .

Stay safe.

 

[Bcwitt]

Use the wobble rounds for CQB drills, snap shots & fast loading practice sessions. Or pull them down & start over.

 

[DynoDan1]

Shooting is a bit of science, a bit of magic, a bit of luck…and a lot of effort. There really is no silver bullet out there to quickly answer all your needs without a TON of trial and error.

Plus, with every shot fired a barrel slightly deteriorates, so the perfect load for your gun-barrel combo may be there for 100 shots, 1000 shots or 10 shots. Only your gun and your load can determine how long the good times last .

This is what makes shooting a lifelong pursuit for so many of us .

Stay safe.

Kinda like fishing or golf or hobbies of the sort.

Finding the "demon tune", as those of use in the automobile racing world called it, is the key.
Ya never really find it, ya just come close and for some they come real close!
Guess I'll just have to send more bullets down range to find that "demon tune".

 

[DynoDan1]

Use the wobble rounds for CQB drills, snap shots & fast loading practice sessions. Or pull them down & start over.

What are CQB drills?
I'm not really concerned with fast loading practices as I'm just a target shooter and I'm just an old fart that likes to shoot a lot who has too much time on his hands.
So if I have a bullet fails the "wobble" test, I just take it apart and reload it again and hope that it doesn't wobble again?

 

[Varminterror]

30,000 rounds of 308win through two barrels and a bore cam shows them looking like new? At one end of this or the other, I think you’re putting us on...

Rolling a cartridge on a milled surface under a naked eye will tell you nothing. When we test for concentricity, we’re looking for a few thousandths of run out, thinner than a human hair. Waste of time. Concentricity fixtures use dial indicators to reveal run out... And frankly, shooting sub-MOA just doesn’t benefit from that level of scrutiny.

As I mentioned in one of your other threads recently, if you are doing this level of sorting and manipulation of your loaded ammo, especially so of factory ammo, you’re wasting your time. I haven’t tested concentricity or sorted any of my match ammo for years now, and achieve sub-half MOA precision (typically even with my anti-node loads!).

Don’t overthink this. Chase rabbits which get you fed. Concentricity sorting isn’t one of them.

HOLY CRAP!!!
Are you a ballistician?
Excellent info but how do I determine if a bullet is a tangent, secant or hybrid if the info on the box or website doesn't say?
Or does knowing not really matter?

I’m not certain I’ve ever tried a bullet for long range which didn’t have readily identifiable ogive type, whether online or through manufacturer data. Certainly a call to the manufacturer would provide an answer.

By and large, however, most bullets are tangent ogives unless otherwise labeled and marketed as such. Berger VLD’s and Hornady ELD’s as an example are secant ogives, and marketed as such, easily found. In one manner of consideration, if a bullet is NOT readily identified as one or the other, it’s not likely a bullet worth pursuing for long range precision.

Many shooters CAN shoot the difference in a secant and tangent ogive. We see evidence of this when a shooter works seemingly endlessly to find a sweet spot for a secant bullet, or needs to jam into the lands, whereas they can almost daftly dump a tangent or hybrid bullet into a case at almost any jump, and shoot the same itty bitty groups.

Equally, tangent versus secant ogive profiles won’t tell you the whole story about a bullet. For example, 6mm 110 SMK’s are notoriously finicky for seating depth, despite their tangent ogive, whereas Hornady 108 ELD’s and 110 A-Tips use Secant ogives, and seem to be exceptionally forgiving of jump.

So as stated above - don’t overthink it.

But circling around again, claiming two factory barrels retain like new bore condition after having supposedly consumed 6-10 barrels worth of ammo... eh... I was born at night, but it wasn’t LAST night.

 

[DynoDan1]

Ha! Yes it is true, I have shot over 30,000 rounds in the the last 2.5 years although not all of them were through my rifles. I should have made that clearer.
My local gun store keeps track of all my purchases so if I can find a way to get that info you'll see that I've shot a buttload. My bank account also shows I have shot my a$$ off!!
I shoot my handguns and my 10/22LR in between sessions to give my rifles time to cool down even though I don't think they've
been over heated. Recall that I said I typically shoot between 300-500 per outing and I've gone out at least once a week for 2.5 years, sometimes I've gone as often as 3 times in a week unless the weather prevents it or my health says I can't, no joke. I am seriously addicted to this hobby!
Of course not all 300-500 are through my .308's. I easily go through 200 rounds through my 10/22LR Ruger semi-auto and maybe a hundred or more through my handguns.
I keep every casing other than the cheap TulAmmo because it's steel which I do pick it up but threw away recently. I no longer shoot TulAmmo because it almost destroyed my 1st rifle, case head came off and left a hollow case stuck in the chamber. I hand counted all of them; .38 spcl, 9mm, .357 mag, 22LR and .308 to 9000 and got tired so I weight counted the rest individually by caliber which came to 23,711. Took me about a month!
But I have shot many of them several times over, the number 30,000 is only an approximation but is not too far from being accurate.
My intent is to eventually have enough scrap brass to purchase a gun, probably be dead by then but oh well!!
But through my rifles I have shot about 13,950, give or take, majority through the Trophy Hunter rifle for sure.
I don't have my brass segregated for shooting through one over the other but I do make rounds for one rifle and then the other as
what chambers smoothly and shoots well in one does not for the other even though both are from the same manufacturer and shoot the same caliber.
Heck, even the bolts work in either one but I do not shoot them with switched bolts.
Once I figure out how to send a video of my barrels, I'll post it and then I'd like your opinion.
By the way do you know how to post a video on THR?
And again, I'm retired so all I do is reload and shoot. I mow the lawn when the neighbors start to complain!!

 

[DynoDan1]

30,000 rounds of 308win through two barrels and a bore cam shows them looking like new? At one end of this or the other, I think you’re putting us on...

Rolling a cartridge on a milled surface under a naked eye will tell you nothing. When we test for concentricity, we’re looking for a few thousandths of run out, thinner than a human hair. Waste of time. Concentricity fixtures use dial indicators to reveal run out... And frankly, shooting sub-MOA just doesn’t benefit from that level of scrutiny.

As I mentioned in one of your other threads recently, if you are doing this level of sorting and manipulation of your loaded ammo, especially so of factory ammo, you’re wasting your time. I haven’t tested concentricity or sorted any of my match ammo for years now, and achieve sub-half MOA precision (typically even with my anti-node loads!).

Don’t overthink this. Chase rabbits which get you fed. Concentricity sorting isn’t one of them.



I’m not certain I’ve ever tried a bullet for long range which didn’t have readily identifiable ogive type, whether online or through manufacturer data. Certainly a call to the manufacturer would provide an answer.

By and large, however, most bullets are tangent ogives unless otherwise labeled and marketed as such. Berger VLD’s and Hornady ELD’s as an example are secant ogives, and marketed as such, easily found. In one manner of consideration, if a bullet is NOT readily identified as one or the other, it’s not likely a bullet worth pursuing for long range precision.

Many shooters CAN shoot the difference in a secant and tangent ogive. We see evidence of this when a shooter works seemingly endlessly to find a sweet spot for a secant bullet, or needs to jam into the lands, whereas they can almost daftly dump a tangent or hybrid bullet into a case at almost any jump, and shoot the same itty bitty groups.

Equally, tangent versus secant ogive profiles won’t tell you the whole story about a bullet. For example, 6mm 110 SMK’s are notoriously finicky for seating depth, despite their tangent ogive, whereas Hornady 108 ELD’s and 110 A-Tips use Secant ogives, and seem to be exceptionally forgiving of jump.

So as stated above - don’t overthink it.

But circling around again, claiming two factory barrels retain like new bore condition after having supposedly consumed 6-10 barrels worth of ammo... eh... I was born at night, but it wasn’t LAST night.

I haven't spent much time checking concentricity, it seems overkill to me.
I don't check for weight or volume of the cases either.
Nor do I don't neck trim meaning I don't do that thing where people trim the outside of the neck to get an even thickness around the neck. There's a term for that I think.
I concentrate on case preparation, powder charge, and bullet seating depth as well as making my home made primers function properly.
The bullets I shoot are not known for their performance as far as I know. Most of them are what I think is called factory seconds from Midway.
They have a red plastic tip in the nose and are boat tail, that's all I know about them. They look a lot like Hornady ELD's or A-Max's.
I did have stellar results out to 600 yards at an 8" steel round steel target awhile back but apparently I didn't record the bullet type/brand. I do know it was 168gr and the powder charge was 41.2 grs of Accurate 2460 in Nammo brass. Haven't been able to even come close to that day since.

 

[JFrank]

If and when you find your optimum tune for your rifle the ogive radius of the bullet will not make any difference at all. Small is Small..
Most LR br players i know bought and sold their Consentricity tool after a couple months. It wont make any difference on paper out to 600 yards.
I could get into why but again it doesn't matter.

 

[DynoDan1]

Whew!!! Glad to hear that. I'm just OCD enough to add that to my list of things to do!
I just bought a chronograph and it's already driving me batcrap crazy with all the numbers. I have no clue what to do with them!
Somebody here made a good point as to why I should get a chronograph but I forgot who, why and where it is in this forum.

 

[rdnktrkr]

Try working up a ladder with each rifle, I have multiple loads for my 30-06s, I start with .5gr spread then drop to .2 to try to find a "node" where .2 difference is ok so I can load with a powder drop, it would surprise me if each rifle likes 40gr even, after that you can start looking at total length, different powders, different primers (since you are making your own maybe amount of compound) different brass, different bullets and it goes on & on, also keep a log so you will know which of the above mentioned works best, a friend also keeps pics of targets on his computer. Good luck with your search.

 

[Walkalong]

Concentricity sorting isn’t one of them.

But is easy to find/fix, so I do.

What level of accuracy one wants to achieve greatly changes the advice.

 

[Bcwitt]

If you take the time to center the case & bullet in the dies, you will generally have concentric cartridges. A round that is visibly wobbling on a flat surface is a sure flier.

 

[Skgreen]

Man!!! I really didn't want to start crawling down that rabbit hole

If playing in the really deep end of the pool, you'll inevitably need to swim.

In my case, the Shooter is the weakest link. More so than my choice of bullet profile.

YMMV

 

[Thomasss]

Yes, you can seriously show one out of wack. I use a Hornady which uses a dial gauge. Remember I said you can correct them MOST of the time. On the Hornady gauge, one will put pressure against the bullet ogive in the opposite direction about 10x the pressure. Then recheck. I get a lot of range pickups and there are a few bad case necks that also can cause problems. Those I canabullize the components and scrap the cases. And Meta-Mucil works better.

 

[DynoDan1]

Try working up a ladder with each rifle, I have multiple loads for my 30-06s, I start with .5gr spread then drop to .2 to try to find a "node" where .2 difference is ok so I can load with a powder drop, it would surprise me if each rifle likes 40gr even, after that you can start looking at total length, different powders, different primers (since you are making your own maybe amount of compound) different brass, different bullets and it goes on & on, also keep a log so you will know which of the above mentioned works best, a friend also keeps pics of targets on his computer. Good luck with your search.

Well, I have shot soooo many rounds through my rifles with Accurate 2460 that I more or less found the "node" by accident.
The Trophy Hunter "likes" 41.2 grs. the most. The Long Range Hunter actually "likes" a little less, 40.0grs. but for
cost and simplicity reasons I just use 40.0 grs. for both. Since most of my target shooting takes place at just 100 yards, 40.0 grs. seems to work pretty well.
I have found that with most of the bullets I use (cheapest I can find), seating them at just touching the rifling or just a few thousandth's off works very well. My primers were a serious source of frustration but I think I've solved that issue for the most part. Adjusting the amount of primer compound is somewhat difficult, you'd have to see the process I use to really know why.
Since I have gazillions of Lake City brass, that's what I reload the most. I also have bazillions of Winchester, Federal, Nammo, Hornady, and unidentified (CBC?) brass that I've reloaded many many times. I pick up all kinds of range brass when somebody leaves some for the primers. I'm stockpiling .223/.556 at this time because I want my next rifle to shoot that caliber.
I do keep a log of the results I get, though once I find the "node" I pretty much stop and just fiddle fart with seating depth.
I used to take pics of all my targets but it filled up my phones memory and since I'm stupid I didn't write any info on them to tell me what was what and deleted them. I do however keep most of the actual targets in a drawer in my desk. Some have info, most don't. I think I might have some pics on one of my other computers though. I'll have to take a look.
I did as you described, working up a ladder for my rifles individually when I was trying different powders recently (Accurate 4064, IMR 3031). But once I found 2460 available again I bought as many pounds of it as I could afford (thanks to the Hiden/Barris admin. it's not as much as I'd like).

 

[DynoDan1]

Yes, you can seriously show one out of wack. I use a Hornady which uses a dial gauge. Remember I said you can correct them MOST of the time. On the Hornady gauge, one will put pressure against the bullet ogive in the opposite direction about 10x the pressure. Then recheck. I get a lot of range pickups and there are a few bad case necks that also can cause problems. Those I canabullize the components and scrap the cases. And Meta-Mucil works better.

 

[DynoDan1]

If you take the time to center the case & bullet in the dies, you will generally have concentric cartridges. A round that is visibly wobbling on a flat surface is a sure flier.

Yeah, as I mentioned somewhere, I don't check every round for concentricity. I do however check every round for what I call a "chamber check".
It's where I chamber a completed round and then using a dowel I "feel" how much effort it takes to push it back out of the chamber. I do this because I buy the cheapest bullets I can find and the ogive on these are all over the place. Using my Hornady gauge combo gets me in the ballpark but if I really want to make these bullets work, I use my "chamber check" method. When ya reload as much as I do, it takes a lot of patience and time. which thankfully I have an abundance of.

 

[DynoDan1]

Man!!! I really didn't want to start crawling down that rabbit hole

If playing in the really deep end of the pool, you'll inevitably need to swim.

In my case, the Shooter is the weakest link. More so than my choice of bullet profile.

YMMV

Yeah, I think I'm the weakest link as well. It's those durn voices in my head that get in the way! (Huh? What? I never said that!!!)
Thankfully I was a lifeguard back in the day, way way waaay back!!

 

[DynoDan1]

But is easy to find/fix, so I do.

What level of accuracy one wants to achieve greatly changes the advice.

Well, I'm pretty new at this so I'm not sure my goal is practical let alone achievable.
I'd like to basically achieve 2 things.
1. Make a 1000 yard shot. Hard part is finding a place to do that. Probably take me a few thousand rounds too!
2. Put 5 bullets through one hole @ 100 yards. I've come close a number of times.

 

[DynoDan1]

Try working up a ladder with each rifle, I have multiple loads for my 30-06s, I start with .5gr spread then drop to .2 to try to find a "node" where .2 difference is ok so I can load with a powder drop, it would surprise me if each rifle likes 40gr even, after that you can start looking at total length, different powders, different primers (since you are making your own maybe amount of compound) different brass, different bullets and it goes on & on, also keep a log so you will know which of the above mentioned works best, a friend also keeps pics of targets on his computer. Good luck with your search.

 

[DynoDan1]

30,000 rounds of 308win through two barrels and a bore cam shows them looking like new? At one end of this or the other, I think you’re putting us on...

Rolling a cartridge on a milled surface under a naked eye will tell you nothing. When we test for concentricity, we’re looking for a few thousandths of run out, thinner than a human hair. Waste of time. Concentricity fixtures use dial indicators to reveal run out... And frankly, shooting sub-MOA just doesn’t benefit from that level of scrutiny.

As I mentioned in one of your other threads recently, if you are doing this level of sorting and manipulation of your loaded ammo, especially so of factory ammo, you’re wasting your time. I haven’t tested concentricity or sorted any of my match ammo for years now, and achieve sub-half MOA precision (typically even with my anti-node loads!).

Don’t overthink this. Chase rabbits which get you fed. Concentricity sorting isn’t one of them.



I’m not certain I’ve ever tried a bullet for long range which didn’t have readily identifiable ogive type, whether online or through manufacturer data. Certainly a call to the manufacturer would provide an answer.

By and large, however, most bullets are tangent ogives unless otherwise labeled and marketed as such. Berger VLD’s and Hornady ELD’s as an example are secant ogives, and marketed as such, easily found. In one manner of consideration, if a bullet is NOT readily identified as one or the other, it’s not likely a bullet worth pursuing for long range precision.

Many shooters CAN shoot the difference in a secant and tangent ogive. We see evidence of this when a shooter works seemingly endlessly to find a sweet spot for a secant bullet, or needs to jam into the lands, whereas they can almost daftly dump a tangent or hybrid bullet into a case at almost any jump, and shoot the same itty bitty groups.

Equally, tangent versus secant ogive profiles won’t tell you the whole story about a bullet. For example, 6mm 110 SMK’s are notoriously finicky for seating depth, despite their tangent ogive, whereas Hornady 108 ELD’s and 110 A-Tips use Secant ogives, and seem to be exceptionally forgiving of jump.

So as stated above - don’t overthink it.

But circling around again, claiming two factory barrels retain like new bore condition after having supposedly consumed 6-10 barrels worth of ammo... eh... I was born at night, but it wasn’t LAST night.

30,000 rounds of 308win through two barrels and a bore cam shows them looking like new? At one end of this or the other, I think you’re putting us on...

Rolling a cartridge on a milled surface under a naked eye will tell you nothing. When we test for concentricity, we’re looking for a few thousandths of run out, thinner than a human hair. Waste of time. Concentricity fixtures use dial indicators to reveal run out... And frankly, shooting sub-MOA just doesn’t benefit from that level of scrutiny.

As I mentioned in one of your other threads recently, if you are doing this level of sorting and manipulation of your loaded ammo, especially so of factory ammo, you’re wasting your time. I haven’t tested concentricity or sorted any of my match ammo for years now, and achieve sub-half MOA precision (typically even with my anti-node loads!).

Don’t overthink this. Chase rabbits which get you fed. Concentricity sorting isn’t one of them.



I’m not certain I’ve ever tried a bullet for long range which didn’t have readily identifiable ogive type, whether online or through manufacturer data. Certainly a call to the manufacturer would provide an answer.

By and large, however, most bullets are tangent ogives unless otherwise labeled and marketed as such. Berger VLD’s and Hornady ELD’s as an example are secant ogives, and marketed as such, easily found. In one manner of consideration, if a bullet is NOT readily identified as one or the other, it’s not likely a bullet worth pursuing for long range precision.

Many shooters CAN shoot the difference in a secant and tangent ogive. We see evidence of this when a shooter works seemingly endlessly to find a sweet spot for a secant bullet, or needs to jam into the lands, whereas they can almost daftly dump a tangent or hybrid bullet into a case at almost any jump, and shoot the same itty bitty groups.

Equally, tangent versus secant ogive profiles won’t tell you the whole story about a bullet. For example, 6mm 110 SMK’s are notoriously finicky for seating depth, despite their tangent ogive, whereas Hornady 108 ELD’s and 110 A-Tips use Secant ogives, and seem to be exceptionally forgiving of jump.

So as stated above - don’t overthink it.

But circling around again, claiming two factory barrels retain like new bore condition after having supposedly consumed 6-10 barrels worth of ammo... eh... I was born at night, but it wasn’t LAST night.

Okay, I still don't know how to attach a video but here are some pics I just took a few moments ago with an inside view from my Trophy Hunter rifle.
This particular rifle has had the lions share of rounds shot through it in the last 2.5 years.
Do things look good, bad, normal, typical? I really don't know other than what my gunsmith friend said and my comparisons to my other rifle because I ran the camera down it's barrel before I shot it for an idea of what a truly clean barrel looks like.
My camera gadget has a mirror attachment that gives a close up view of what the rifling looks like. If you'd like to see pics of that nature let me know and I'll send those as well.

 

[Nature Boy]

@DynoDan1

As long as you’re making your own homemade primers none of these accuracy nuances will matter very much

 

[DynoDan1]

@DynoDan1

As long as you’re making your own homemade primers none of these accuracy nuances will matter very much

I'd agree with you but I've had some of the best results I've ever had with my homemade primers.
But yes, it is true, I believe, consistent accuracy is not likely going to happen with them. However, I'd like to find a way to narrow the lack of
consistency by eliminating all other issues or at least reducing them as much as possible so that all I have to focus on is creating better primers.
That is probably never really going to happen but it won't keep me from trying.

 

[Walkalong]

Do things look good, bad, normal, typical?

Can't see.

Leade on a new, not overly well cut, chamber.


Barrel with around 1400 rounds on it

 

[DynoDan1]

Can't see.

Leade on a new, not overly well cut, chamber.
View attachment 1026338

Barrel with around 1400 rounds on it
View attachment 1026340
View attachment 1026341
View attachment 1026342

I had a little trouble taking the pictures being that my computer and gadget were about 4' apart.
So from the pictures you have I'm guessing that I should include some pics using the little mirror doodads.
I'll try again.
From what I did send, did things look good/bad/ average/???