Carrying and Gun Safety

[The Night Rider]

One of the first rules of gun safety is to never point the gun at anything you would not want to be destroyed. Yet, when carrying, invariably the gun will point in undesirable directions. How do you not occasionally have your dog cross by close to you and come into the path of the gun? How about if you sit down and now the gun in the pocket holster is almost horizontal and possibly pointing at someone nearby. What if you sit on the ground, back against a wall or tree, and knees up so the gun points at an upward angle and people are walking by. If you are on a hillside and the gun in holster points at someone below? Or a shoulder holster could have it pointing at people all the time if the holster stores the gun horizontally. Or for the ladies, purse carry (hope she has a holster and not have it triggered by stuff floating around inside the purse).

Bro, There's a search feature maybe you should use it. This discussion has been done multiple times on every gun forum in every corner of the internet that has ever existed all the way back to BBs

 

[Ralph III]

Lot's of good input!

Rexster, although I agree with most of your post and I gave it a like; I consider "point" to mean exactly what it means. I don't consider "point" to only be relevant when a gun is actually being held by someone.

For me, it is a conscious awareness of where my gun is pointing at all times and to insure it is never pointing at someone. This would include while it is holstered or as one would normally consider it to be safe. I treat the first rule just as I do the second rule which is to "Always treat every gun as if it is loaded". Even though I know it is not loaded, having just safety checked it despite if someone else did so prior to and in front of me. I never allow myself to become complacent.

Consequently, I would never use a holster such as a shoulder holster, which was mentioned, if it means that gun will be pointing at people. Why would I choose that when I can use an IWB or OWB holster which never points in the direction of people? That violates the first rule for me and in that case it's not an option. I'll always err on the side of safety -vs- comfort.

I understand that a proper holster should eliminate any possibility of a trigger being manipulated but there are several problems with that mentality and notion.

1) Not everyone is as competent as most on this forum and many may have holsters which are poor choices for their gun or as they carry. The gun could become dislodged from their holster thus exposing the trigger which could result in a discharge. A soft holster or worn holster could allow manipulation of the trigger under certain conditions. Something could have gotten into your holster unbeknownst which could cause trigger manipulation as well.

2) It places to much emphasis on holsters and other items or gun safety rules. So it's a distraction of the main rule that I adhere to which is "Always know where you gun is pointing and never point it at anything you are not willing to destroy". That rule is first and foremost for me. Everything else is safety redundancy.

The point is, I would never trust a holster or anything else for that matter that would cause me to relax on the first rule. Watch THIS video as a gentleman almost kills himself with his holstered Glock while bending over to pick up something. Now consider had that been a shoulder holster or a pocket holster with the gun having been pointed at someone when it went off. So again, pointing to me is pointing, period. It doesn't matter if the gun is holstered or not.

God Bless,
Ralph

 

[Ralph III]

Bro, There's a search feature maybe you should use it. This discussion has been done multiple times on every gun forum in every corner of the internet that has ever existed all the way back to BBs

Maybe, but talking about gun safety should never be discouraged. I appreciate the fact the OP decided to start the conversation and all the input that has been contributed. If you feel it is a waste of your time then why bother posting?

Ralph

 

[film495]

this is why I generally do not carry chambered.

 

[bdickens]

The point is, I would never trust a holster or anything else for that matter that would cause me to relax on the first rule. Watch THIS video as a gentleman almost kills himself with his holstered Glock while bending over to pick up something. Now consider had that been a shoulder holster or a pocket holster with the gun having been pointed at someone when it went off. So again, pointing to me is pointing, period. It doesn't matter if the gun is holstered or not.

That video doesn't really show a damn thing.

Read the commentary.

The fact is that properly functioning guns do not "go off" and if you can't wrap your head around that then perhaps you aren't quite ready to be carrying one.

 

[JDeere]

RetiredUSNChief is spot on for those who seem to worry about glock leg. It's not going to happen all by its lonesome. Carried one everyday for many years and never worried about it.

 

[trackskippy]

This all simply boils down to the user choosing the proper gear and being competent with their equipment.

If you arent willing to put in the time and effort to do that, and there is a good bit of both involved here, then you really shouldn't be carrying a gun, loaded or otherwise.

Carrying an "unloaded" gun doesn't make you safer either.

 

[Ethan Verity]

For me, it is a conscious awareness of where my gun is pointing at all times and to insure it is never pointing at someone. This would include while it is holstered or as one would normally consider it to be safe...

If you are this concerned on where your holstered gun is pointed, I hope that you never go upstairs in a building... you're likely to be pointing at someone downstairs through the floor!

 

[wiscoaster]

...... This discussion has been done multiple times on every gun forum in every corner of the internet that has ever existed all the way back to BBs

....and based on my observations, can never be repeated often enough ....

 

[Ralph III]

bdickens...."That video doesn't really show a damn thing...."

The video shows a man holster his gun and then the gun discharging accidentally as he bends over. Something caused the trigger to be manipulated and the gun fired. That is simply a fact, so I really don't know what your attempted argument is.

bdickens...."The fact is that properly functioning guns do not "go off" and if you can't wrap your head around that then perhaps you aren't quite ready to be carrying one".

Do you actually bother reading what people say or do you just have comprehension issues? I've been handling and shooting firearms for nearly 50 years. Secondly, I never said anything about a gun going off on it's own. You're most assuredly talking to the wrong person.

However, gun safety starts with the individual. It's what's between your ears that makes a gun safe or unsafe. It's the stupid people, who cause all of the issues and make law abiding and safety conscious gun owners look bad. So why are you choosing to argue about gun safety?

Ethan Verity...."If you are this concerned on where your holstered gun is pointed, I hope that you never go upstairs in a building... you're likely to be pointing at someone downstairs through the floor!".

That's very clever. Did you think of that yourself Ethan? You remind me of my childhood best friend Scott who would attempt to get people in a "gotcha" moment when he felt compelled to justify himself. I'll do you one better. I've shot my weapons thousands of times in the Alabama outdoors alone. So I guess I broke the pointing rule because I pointed my gun in the direction of people living in Tennessee, Georgia, Florida and Mississippi. This doesn't even include all of the villagers living across the entire state of Alabama.

Now let's have an adult conversation, ok. I never said that a weapon would never be pointed in an improper direction, or such absolute terms. I've simply reiterated what RetiredUSNchief has stated and the good points that trackskippy made with his post.

Yes, a gun is not going to go off on it's own. That is simply a lie that liberals and the liberal media choose to portray. HOWEVER. There are a lot of stupid people in the world and quite a number of stupid people who handle guns who have no training or concept of gun safety. They don't have the training nor the experience that you, or bdickens or myself may have. And in many instances many of them do not have the concept of gun safety or otherwise don't care. Consequently, they often handle weapons in an unsafe fashion, otherwise they are using entirely inappropriate gear. These things can lead to accidents.

Again, I grew up hunting so there was always an awareness of firearm safety. I've now been shooting for nearly 50 years, so this is simply ingrained within me and second nature. I could care less if you pocket carry your weapon or if you use a shoulder holster. I could choose to do the same BUT if I did I would insure it was never pointing at someone.

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Now let me ask you and bdickens or others with your apparent mentality a question: So let's say you sit down for dinner and you realize that your holstered firearm is pointing directly at your wife or child sitting across from you. Are you going to make an effort and readjust it so it's no longer pointing at your wife or child -or- are you OK with your firearm pointing at your wife and child? Please answer that for me. Because, firstly I'm going to be aware of such and secondly I'm going to make the effort to readjust my firearm, so it's not pointing at my family. And if you are willing to do this for your wife and child, are you also willing to do the same for someone else's wife and child? Because if you are not, that is the difference between you and me!

Ralph

 

[SteadyD]

If you're that concerned, then you're not ready to carry....

I think the opposite. When you realize you need to make wise choices about equipment, training, and awareness, then you are ready. A lack of forethought is why people accidentally shoot themselves when holstering. They likely haven’t trained, they likely have a poor quality holster, and likely aren’t fully aware of the necessity of making safety a primary concern.

 

[eyeshot]

Short story. The closest I ever came to being shot was at a range. Only myself and one other individual. He was already setup at a station and came out for a meet and greet. We chatted, shook hands and he turned to walk back to his bench with me about 6-10 feet behind. For some reason he decided to check to see if his pistol was still in his holster, I guess. Boom!

To this day I remember it looked like a 1911. The man was lefthanded, we were walking on concrete and we both were very lucky that day.

I post this with the thought that maybe we shouldn't adjust at all. At least not while we're sitting, squatting, bending or not concentrating in close proximity to others. The best thing would be to excuse oneself and go get your rig in order and or stow it. The firearm is not going to go off by itself unless we do something dumb. Just a thought and opinion.

 

[bdickens]

I've been handling and shooting firearms for nearly 50 years.

Well whoop de do. Means nothing.

Secondly, I never said anything about a gun going off on it's own.

Um...

Now consider had that been a shoulder holster or a pocket holster with the gun having been pointed at someone when it went off.

Okay....

Something caused the trigger to be manipulated and the gun fired.

Precicely. And the video doesn't show what or how. So what's the point? No conclusions can be drawn from it.

There are a lot of stupid people in the world and quite a number of stupid people who handle guns who have no training or concept of gun safety. They don't have the training nor the experience that you, or bdickens or myself may have. And in many instances many of them do not have the concept of gun safety or otherwise don't care. Consequently, they often handle weapons in an unsafe fashion, otherwise they are using entirely inappropriate gear. These things can lead to accidents.

So what? Why should stupid people acting unsafely affect the behavior of smart people acting safely? Non Sequitur. That's exactly the kind of thinking that gun prohibitionists use.

So let's say you sit down for dinner and you realize that your holstered firearm is pointing directly at your wife or child sitting across from you. Are you going to make an effort and readjust it so it's no longer pointing at your wife or child -or- are you OK with your firearm pointing at your wife and child? Please answer that for me.

No, I would not. Why? That pistol has been riding securely in it's holster all day and hasn't "gone off" yet, what makes you think it would do so now?

Fact is, unnecessary administrative handling of the gun is infinitely more likely to lead to a tragedy than is putting it on, covering it up and LEAVING IT ALONE.

Because if you are not, that is the difference between you and me!

No. The difference between me and you is that I apply common sense and critical thinking to the four rules....

I would insure it was never pointing at someone

You probably should think twice about lecturing someone on reading comprehension when you don't know the difference between "ensure" and "insure."

 

[aaaaa]

Actually, insure has two meanings per Merriman-Webster:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insure
1: to provide or obtain insurance on or for
2: to make certain especially by taking necessary measures and precautions

We had been using insure in customer letters for years at work and a trainee pointed out it should be ensure, so I changed it and to this day still use ensure. And to think it was right in the first place.

 

[Ralph III]

Bdickens, most everything you've stated in my regards is completely nonsensical. Now let me address a few things.

quote by bdickens...."Well whoop de do. Means nothing."

Well actually it does considering you implied I had no experience. I have a lifetime of experience with firearms. I have also participated in numerous firearm injury related studies at some prominent universities, which would include Johns Hopkins. Giving input as a strong 2A supporter and safety conscious gun owner; in part to dispel some of the ignorant portrayals of gun owners. You're not helping.

quote by bdickens...."Um..."

That's not a response. Now show where I have personally stated that a firearm is capable of going off on it's own because I never have. However, I do not rule out the possibility as mechanical parts do fail and then there is manufacturing defects and design flaws. Otherwise, maybe you should look into the various Sig Sauer P320 lawsuits and design change resulting from such.

quote by bdickens...."Precicely. And the video doesn't show what or how. So what's the point? No conclusions can be drawn from it."

You are seemingly choosing to be ignorant. There are quite a number of lessons to be learned from the video which has in fact been used for such. 1) The gun WAS holstered and yet a discharge took place. THAT IS A FACT. So stop propagating the notion that a gun is 100% safe when it is holstered and consequently no other safety measures need to be considered. Such as insuring your firearm isn't pointing at someone! 2) An improper holster can cause the trigger to be exposed resulting in a potential discharge. 3) Something could get into your holster and cause a discharge. 4) In addition. There are instances when you should remove your holster prior to re-holstering your firearm. If the gentleman in that video had done so, it's possible he could have avoided the accidental discharge.

quote by bdickens...."So what? Why should stupid people acting unsafely affect the behavior of smart people acting safely....?"

Because we are all smart people until we do something really stupid, now aren't we. I would never allow a firearm to be pointed at my wife or either one of my daughters, no matter if it were holstered, unloaded, or otherwise! Period, end of story. I consider it quite stupid that some people are apparently fully content with having a loaded weapon pointing directly at their loved one's. It's beyond stupidity.

quote by bdickens...."No, I would not. Why? That pistol has been riding securely in it's holster all day and hasn't "gone off" yet, what makes you think it would do so now?"

And what makes you so complacent and selfish that you are willing to gamble with the life of your wife and daughter, that your firearm is not going to go off accidentally? Your mentality would have to say it's also OK to point an unloaded gun directly at them as well. Because it is after all unloaded and thus perfectly safe. I'd never do either!

Now to answer your question directly. The gentleman in the video had a holstered pistol that didn't initially go off. He could have stood there for eternity and it probably would never have gone off. However, when he changed his position the pistol then went off. Your firearm is exposed to different pressures during the day as you go from a sitting position to a standing position, to bending over or twisting around. There are times when something or someone may also press against your firearm. So, I make a habit of checking the status of my firearm especially in those instances to insure it is always properly seated and secondly to insure it is never pointing at anyone. So even if an accidental discharge did ever occur, no harm could come of it.

quote by bdickens..."Fact is, unnecessary administrative handling of the gun is infinitely more likely to lead to a tragedy than is putting it on, covering it up and LEAVING IT ALONE."

Ok, I agree with that statement. However, you are attempting to imply something erroneous with it.

Now to set the record straight in regards to myself. 1) I don't participate in "unnecessary administrative" handling of firearms and that's really an erroneous statement anyhow. So stop implying things which you are ignorant about. I consider your statement erroneous because I think practicing with a firearm and practicing safe handling with a firearm on a regular basis is a good thing. I realize that's not quite what you are referring to but I wanted to clarify anyhow. 2) Any time I handle a firearm it is always in a completely professional and safe manner because that is who I am. It's the example I set. 3) My carry gun is a Kahr which is arguably the safest striker fired gun made due to it's long revolver-type trigger. It cannot go off without pulling the trigger and pulling it with absolute intent. 4) I use IWB and OWB holsters exclusively which completely covers up my firearms trigger. There is no concern as to the direction it is pointing. I got rid of my pocket carry firearm because I couldn't accept that it indeed pointed on occasion. It was also unnecessary because I am always able to carry a larger and more accurate firearm. 5) My holsters have an adjustable cant which allows me to safely make minor adjustments, when necessary. This is completely safe and what the holster was designed for. It insures complete retention of the firearm even if the holster is purposefully or accidentally manipulated. So stop speaking about things which you have no knowledge of. You are simply attempting to justify yourself. As it stands, I put a lot of time and effort into choosing my ccw gear and I did so with safety as one of the main objectives.

quote by bdickens..."...The difference between me and you is that I apply common sense and critical thinking to the four rules...."

Coming from the man who is OK with having his loaded but holstered gun pointing directly at his wife and/or child! I guarantee you that I have never espoused such nor set that as my example. Otherwise, I abide by all gun rules and I do so in a highly professional manner.

quote by bdickens..."you probably should think twice about lecturing someone on reading comprehension when you don't know the difference between "ensure" and "insure."

You're simply showing yourself to be petty. Otherwise, those two words are synonyms of each other with "insure" meaning "to make certain especially by taking necessary measures and precautions". I'll admit I usually use "ensure" though.

Ralph

 

[bdickens]

You know, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Well actually it does considering you implied I had no experience. I have a lifetime of experience with firearms.

I didn't imply anything. I flat out stated that your alleged 50 years of experience means nothing. If you are wrong for 50 years that doesn't make you right.

50 years of experience my behind. Maybe 1 year of experience 50 times.

. I would never allow a firearm to be pointed at my wife or either one of my daughters, no matter if it were holstered, unloaded, or otherwise! Period, end of story

You better stay away from your LGS or worse, gun shows. You will absolutely have a heart attack and die.

Now to set the record straight in regards to myself. 1) I don't participate in "unnecessary administrative" handling of firearms and that's really an erroneous statement anyhow. So stop implying things which you are ignorant about.

Bull. All this "adjusting" you keep talking about so as to not "allow a firearm to be pointed at my wife or either one of my daughters" is unnecessary administrative handling.

What I gotta wonder is where is your concern for the people at the next table? Or in the next room? If you go upstairs, what about the people on the floor below?

You are being ridiculous. Silly and ridiculous.

And what makes you so complacent and selfish that you are willing to gamble with the life of your wife and daughter, that your firearm is not going to go off accidentally? Your mentality would have to say it's also OK to point an unloaded gun directly at them as well. Because it is after all unloaded and thus perfectly safe. I'd never do either!

Now I know you're not just being silly. You're trolling.

I was going to be charitable and suppose that it was your imprecise and equivocal use of language leading to confusion but now I see you're trolling.

In fact, you have quite the history here of being a pompous, bloviating know-it-all.

I, sir, am done with you here.

 

[wiscoaster]

Oh, shucks.

View attachment 1073921

 

[Ralph III]

Good grief bdickens! You're completely misrepresenting things and at this point I have to assume purposefully. We are talking about gun safety. I would have assumed that would have been welcomed by everyone here?

quote by bdickens...."50 years of experience my behind. Maybe 1 year of experience 50 times."

You're again being petty and resorting to personal insults which is typical of someone with no argument.

quote by bdickens..."All this "adjusting" you keep talking about so as to not "allow a firearm to be pointed at my wife or either one of my daughters" is unnecessary administrative handling.

WRONG! This is a complete misrepresentation of everything that I stated!

1) I NEVER said anything about having to ever adjust my firearm, so it would not be pointing at my wife or daughters! That was a hypothetical question that I posed to you! I simply stated that I would never allow such to occur. Unlike you.

2) The only time I said anything that could be construed as an "Administrative" adjustment was in regards to a pocket pistol (DB380) that I once owned for a very short period, many years ago.

quote by Ralph III "I purchased a pocket pistol for Church security once and the first time I sat down with it in my pocket, I immediately realized my weapon was horizontal and pointing at the pew in front of me. Consequently, I immediately readjusted it to point downward"

I found this to be completely unacceptable, so I sold it shortly thereafter. I instead stick strictly to IWB or OWB carry because my pistol NEVER points while carrying in that fashion. Consequently, I NEVER have to adjust my firearm due to such. I noted all of these things numerous times so stop being dishonest by misrepresenting things.

quote by Ralph III...."I got rid of my pocket carry firearm because I couldn't accept that it indeed pointed on occasion"

quote by Ralph III...."I...use an IWB or OWB holster which never points in the direction of people?"

quote by Ralph III....I use IWB and OWB holsters exclusively....There is no concern as to the direction it is pointing"

So your portrayals are blatantly inaccurate. I noted that as well.

quote by Ralph III...."I don't participate in "unnecessary administrative" handling of firearms...So stop implying things which you are ignorant about."

Your portrayals of me are beyond ignorant but dishonest at this point! Having to once re-adjust a loaded firearm years ago is not "excessive". That's laughable on your behalf. Nor would I consider adjusting a loaded firearm, so it was not pointing at someone, to be "unnecessary Administrative handling" as you referred to it. That pretty much says it all.

quote by bdickens...."You are being ridiculous. Silly and ridiculous....you're trolling."

Now that's ridiculous. You talk like a liberal Democrat attempting a misdirect. The only thing I have stated is that I have made a lifetime of being conscious of the status of my firearm so as to never inadvertently point it at someone. This is how I was trained and this is what I have always practiced.

You're the one who challenged me. I simply voiced an opinion for which you began to attack and then misrepresent. So yes, it's time to move on.

Ralph

 

[JohnKSa]

I guess maybe if I let this go a little longer, things will calm down on their own... (Said someone who was not me.)